The Future of Minnesota Youth AA Hockey?

[jpiehl]

I can tell you this much Irondale lost zero players due to the AA, A split and they are one of the smallest associations in district 10. I believe coon rapids and St Francis lost a few but none of those kids ended up on the top teams at the pee wee or bantam levels.

CR lost zero Bantams in 2012
Lost one PW
Do you count squirts if the games don't count???

Thank you for clarifying. I knew the Pee wee goalie moved to lakeville. I guess you could count squirts but they did not leave because of the AA, A split since that doesn't happen until Pee wee's

Squirts leaving can still be due to the AA/A split. Anyone that is going to make the move for that reason is likely looking forward enough to know that it will affect their squirt player in a year or two and make the move now instead of trying to crack the top team as a new player to the association.

[MrBoDangles]

Thanks for informing them for me, fellas.


We really need to add a AAA and AAAA level so that the movement can get even better. Every one of the states 8 AAAA associations will get auto bids to the AAAA State Tournament...... We can just let Hockey in the rest of the state wither away with our new elite levels.

Yes, they're jacking the whole system from mini mites thru high school...

They didn't stop to think that maybe Hermantown's A (2nd) team beating Cloquet's 1-17 would take the wind out of their sails?

This pilot is stupid!

[JSR]

Tony, what about the players that are playing for Tier 1 teams outside of the state but still living at home. How do they enter into this discussion, if they do? 3 Machine Orange kids, all from different associations, playing Bantam Minors for Madison Capitols down in WI this year for example. Other examples as well......

[Shinbone_News]

Thanks for informing them for me, fellas.


We really need to add a AAA and AAAA level so that the movement can get even better. Every one of the states 8 AAAA associations will get auto bids to the AAAA State Tournament...... We can just let Hockey in the rest of the state wither away with our new elite levels.

OMG, the sky won't stop falling. Meanwhile, back here on planet earth there have been no actual reports of significant immigration from A to AA programs. Other than Bo's posts.

That you FEAR it is happening doesn't mean it IS happening, Bo. It's a seductive conspiracy theory, I know.

[MrBoDangles]

Thanks for informing them for me, fellas.


We really need to add a AAA and AAAA level so that the movement can get even better. Every one of the states 8 AAAA associations will get auto bids to the AAAA State Tournament...... We can just let Hockey in the rest of the state wither away with our new elite levels.

OMG, the sky won't stop falling. Meanwhile, back here on planet earth there have been no actual reports of significant immigration from A to AA programs. Other than Bo's posts.

That you FEAR it is happening doesn't mean it IS happening, Bo. It's a seductive conspiracy theory, I know.

Better double up your bubble wrap...

[Shinbone_News]

Thanks for informing them for me, fellas.


We really need to add a AAA and AAAA level so that the movement can get even better. Every one of the states 8 AAAA associations will get auto bids to the AAAA State Tournament...... We can just let Hockey in the rest of the state wither away with our new elite levels.

OMG, the sky won't stop falling. Meanwhile, back here on planet earth there have been no actual reports of significant immigration from A to AA programs. Other than Bo's posts.

That you FEAR it is happening doesn't mean it IS happening, Bo. It's a seductive conspiracy theory, I know.

Better double up your bubble wrap...

And you better work another layer onto your tinfoil hat.

[MrBoDangles]

OMG, the sky won't stop falling. Meanwhile, back here on planet earth there have been no actual reports of significant immigration from A to AA programs. Other than Bo's posts.

That you FEAR it is happening doesn't mean it IS happening, Bo. It's a seductive conspiracy theory, I know.

Better double up your bubble wrap...

And you better work another layer onto your tinfoil hat.

We wouldn't expect you to be concerned..... Being that you're from a mega association. It's a different story at Coon Rapids, St. Francis, Mora, Cambridge etc, when you lose a kid that gets 40% of your points or a stud goalie.... You're just proving yourself as a typical Edina Hockey parent.

[Shinbone_News]

Not Edina, no. (That's the youth hockey equivalent of calling someone a Nazi, of course, and therefore the conversation is over. Heh.)

But point taken. What you're really saying is that key players will migrate to AA programs, but there was nothing keeping those kids from leaving before for competitive, state-bound associations regardless, and no rule change or class designation is going to change that.

You could try building a fence, but that doesn't seem to work in Mexico or Israel.

[InigoMontoya]

What you're really saying is that key players will migrate to AA programs

.

That's what he's really been saying for months.

[Bleed Maroon and Gold]

[quote="Shinbone_News"]Not Edina, no. (That's the youth hockey equivalent of calling someone a Nazi, of course, and therefore the conversation is over. Heh.)

But point taken. What you're really saying is that [b]key players[/b] will migrate to AA programs, but there was nothing keeping those kids from leaving before for competitive, state-bound associations regardless, and no rule change or class designation is going to change that.

You could try building a fence, but that doesn't seem to work in Mexico or Israel.[/quote]

He has said key players are leaving yes. But has yet to provide associations that this is actually happening to and giving proof.

Here is a question for everyone I can't answer it since I do not have enough data.

Did associations that are losing the players now because of the AA/A split lose kids prior to this just to go play for a better or more competitive associations or did they stay at their home association and play on the A team that did not win many games?

[CRBantamAcoach]

Not Edina, no. (That's the youth hockey equivalent of calling someone a Nazi, of course, and therefore the conversation is over. Heh.)

But point taken. What you're really saying is that key players will migrate to AA programs, but there was nothing keeping those kids from leaving before for competitive, state-bound associations regardless, and no rule change or class designation is going to change that.

You could try building a fence, but that doesn't seem to work in Mexico or Israel.

He has said key players are leaving yes. But has yet to provide associations that this is actually happening to and giving proof.

Here is a question for everyone I can't answer it since I do not have enough data.

Did associations that are losing the players now because of the AA/A split lose kids prior to this just to go play for a better or more competitive associations or did they stay at their home association and play on the A team that did not win many games?

Yes, players left before this A/AA split and they will keep leaving.

Example: I coached a Bantam A team that had 7 players leave CR for other high schools. 6 of the 7 ended up in trouble and missed playing time for reasons like grades/drugs. None of them made it to the X to play in the state tournament.

What always puzzled me was the parents claimed the reason they wanted to get away from CR because of bad influences and drugs.

It will continue - someone will try to get to the greener grass (no pun intended).

[Bleed Maroon and Gold]

[quote="CRBantamAcoach"][quote="Bleed Maroon and Gold"][quote="Shinbone_News"]Not Edina, no. (That's the youth hockey equivalent of calling someone a Nazi, of course, and therefore the conversation is over. Heh.)

But point taken. What you're really saying is that [b]key players[/b] will migrate to AA programs, but there was nothing keeping those kids from leaving before for competitive, state-bound associations regardless, and no rule change or class designation is going to change that.

You could try building a fence, but that doesn't seem to work in Mexico or Israel.[/quote]

He has said key players are leaving yes. But has yet to provide associations that this is actually happening to and giving proof.

Here is a question for everyone I can't answer it since I do not have enough data.

Did associations that are losing the players now because of the AA/A split lose kids prior to this just to go play for a better or more competitive associations or did they stay at their home association and play on the A team that did not win many games?[/quote]

Yes, players left before this A/AA split and they will keep leaving.

Example: I coached a Bantam A team that had 7 players leave CR for other high schools. 6 of the 7 ended up in trouble and missed playing time for reasons like grades/drugs. None of them made it to the X to play in the state tournament.

What always puzzled me was the parents claimed the reason they wanted to get away from CR because of bad influences and drugs.

It will continue - someone will try to get to the greener grass (no pun intended).[/quote]

I appreciate your answer. I know players left before the split but has the numbers increased since the split or are they about the same? I know its tough to tell because of the split only being one season so I think more data will be needed than one year to compare pre AA/A split and post AA/A split.

[frederick61]

He has said key players are leaving yes. But has yet to provide associations that this is actually happening to and giving proof.

Here is a question for everyone I can't answer it since I do not have enough data.

Did associations that are losing the players now because of the AA/A split lose kids prior to this just to go play for a better or more competitive associations or did they stay at their home association and play on the A team that did not win many games?

Yes, players left before this A/AA split and they will keep leaving.

Example: I coached a Bantam A team that had 7 players leave CR for other high schools. 6 of the 7 ended up in trouble and missed playing time for reasons like grades/drugs. None of them made it to the X to play in the state tournament.

What always puzzled me was the parents claimed the reason they wanted to get away from CR because of bad influences and drugs.

It will continue - someone will try to get to the greener grass (no pun intended).

I appreciate your answer. I know players left before the split but has the numbers increased since the split or are they about the same? I know its tough to tell because of the split only being one season so I think more data will be needed than one year to compare pre AA/A split and post AA/A split.

The effects of the AA/A split is still in the future. This year will be a telling one when after the September/October tryouts, the associations sign their teams up. Some districts will try to drive smaller associations to be AA before their tryouts to round out their AA league. But there is a general answer to that question that sets the stage for kids to move as a result of the AA/A.

Prior to the AA/A split, I believe you had a number of reasons that kids moved-the top one being jobs or something in the parents lives that caused the move. If you set those type of personal reasons aside and look at associations losing players (something separate from parents or kids moving for personal reasons), then I believe two things affect associations losing players. Both are controlled by the association's board's decisions

The first is how competitive the associations peewee teams are year after year. Competitive does not mean that the association's peewee team have to win all the time or even play .500, it means that most of the peewee age kids in the association enjoy playing the game because they believe they can compete. Because the kids enjoy playing hockey, they return the next season.

But the reason that peewee age kids are critical in the association's overall program is that age is where the kids have to decide to play high school.

Under Minnesota High School transfer rules, by January in their 8th grade year, the parents have to have paperwork in to transfer their kid from their local school to the new high school. If they transfer after the kid starts the 9th grade, the child will lose one year of sports eligibility. This usually means at the start of association's hockey season, for most peewees moving to bantams in November, the parents will have decided and have started the paperwork to move or to stay with the current school.

I have longed maintained that this general rule used by the high schools for all sports, punishes hockey kids for this reason and that for hockey this rule should be modified.

The second year peewee that transfers will most likely play for the association's bantams that year; but he has already moved on (As an aside, the exception to this 8th grade rule seems to be private schools. Last year a number of kids transferred to private schools after their junior year and played as seniors so there must be exceptions).

The second reason is that association's decision on who will be the peewee A or AA coach becomes critical. Summer hockey has changed especially in the Twin Cities. The level of coaching that the top end kids get playing summer hockey is usually better than most peewee A association's coaches. The summer coaches are experienced at coaching peewee kids and usually set an up tempo at practices. The winter association hockey usually has more of a regime over the season then summer, but the association's choice of an inexperienced coach peewee coach usually results in a lack of comprehension of the whole season and a lack of understanding of how peewee kids develop during the season. These coaches usually start the season with a bang and fizzle.

The parents see this on the ice and its effects. Yet some boards have failed to recognize that is going on and select coaches who are inexperienced at the peewee level. Some boards will often select a coach with a reputation, but no prior youth coaching experience. The best coach is one that has a proven track record at the youth level and has coached peewees before (more than one year preferred). I have heard it said more than once around the rink, the good peewee association coach will "own the team" as they get older because the peewee kids are the first to recognize good coaching.

His attention to detail and commitment over the season keeps the kids on the peewee team he has just coached in the program.

But more importantly when a first year peewee encounters an inexperienced coach, the parents start to look elsewhere. High school decisions are looming.

A board controls their own destiny but it does not come easy and the board has to think long term. The problem is the boards change. They usually consist of board members who are there because of their children's desire to play hockey and when their kid moves on (usually in two years) the parent leaves the board and the long term strategy changes.

If you look behind the larger associations, you will probably find a long term strategic element in place that other smaller boards have not been able to achieve. I am not casting stones at smaller association's board members, but providing my view of where the problems lie. I believe that the AA/A split will only make the smaller AA association board's problems worst.

And in the end, the smaller AA associations will drop to A because they realize that they play the same district schedule of AA/A teams anyway and their coaches will schedule competitive teams.

[Snarkie]

Mr. Bo is correct. Many familiies discussing the A/AA split and looking at options to leave. Regardless if they leave or not, the fact that the discussions are taking place is not a good thing for any District or program.

[hockey59]

Freddy...I agree with you that having top notch summer coaches does put more pressure on associations to pick higher quality AA or A coaches. But the issue at the AA or A level is not in-experienced coaches being selected, most associations can find experienced AA or A coaches... while that issue more often times may be the case with their B level coache

The problem is association's that seem to always turn to PARENT COACHES at the AA PEEWEE & BANTAM level.

In certain cases a parent IS the best choice, but in many cases...it's about a wash, but they USUALLY give the job to the parent coach...when qualified non-parent coaches ARE AVAILABLE. Typically they are younger, but have the hockey knowledge, are available and chomping at the bit for the opportunity. When you find a top notch non-parent coach, they are often willing to be the coach for several years, with parent coaches its usually one and done.

I have no problem with a parent HC at the Squirt AA level. At the PeeWee level, it 50/50 regarding parent/non-parent HC at the AA level. At the Bantam AA level, it's only in RARE cases that a parent Head Coach is the BEST choice. Point is...NO PARENT IS 100% OBJECTIVE coaching their own kid...the very best...are capable of doing a good job. But many fail in this regard; and it hurts the overall development of the team they are coaching and the overall development of their own son.

[Shinbone_News]

I have asked around and continue to field answers, but presently I have not heard anyone other than Bo claim that families are changing associations because of the AA/A split. The consensus (so far) has been that there are no more and no fewer moves or waivers than before the split. It seems the grass is greener no matter what policies are or are not in place.

Owing to his passion on the subject, I'm sure Bo has first-hand experience with this and is wisely observing the policy of not naming names of "stud" players who abandoned their buddies to play for some all-star team up the road. I respect Bo's take on this, but my point is that he seems to be a focus group of one, and he's saying that the entire AA/A pilot program should be scrapped because of it, and that it will ruin Minnesota Hockey especially for smaller associations. Since he seems to be the only one saying it or claiming to have actual evidence, I'm disinclined to believe his claims of pending apocalypse.

Personally, I'm not hugely for or against the split, I think it's just grade inflation. I thought it was kind of neat to see some new names and faces at state. I wouldn't mind if it stayed or went away. Associations have always had to decide where to place their teams for best parity, it's no different now and it'll be no different in the future.

And if Forest Lake is forced to figure out how to keep their best players at home, then they'll have to do what 90% of the rest of us have to do -- poll parents at the end of the year, and change what ain't working for them, because they're the ones paying the ice bills and coach's stipends.

[MrBoDangles]

A kid in an A association is much more likely to leave for an AA association, just like how B-1 associations would always lose their best talent to A level programs.

It should be a no brainer then that this will multiply with more talented kids being back one to two competition levels..... And COMPOUND that with fewer (options) teams now than before playing at the top level.

Many of the top 10 ranked teams at each level took in 1 to even 3 top end players that were studs at their old associations.....

Try asking people that are more informed than you.

[helightsthelamp]

Bo, I would have to agree with Shin on this one... I really don't think the letter designation really makes a difference on player movement. If you were in a smaller assocation with B1 being the highest level and wanted to move or open enroll to a larger program with historical sucess, wouldn't you be moving to an A assocation? Wouldn't it be the same association no matter if teams were classified A or AA? If you are a smaller assocation and did not compete well at the A level (previous to new designation) and wanted out, where would you go? My guess is the larger stronger assocation's A team which now is a AA team... Same team, same group of players and same association. If players are going to move to "greener" pastures, the song remains the same, only the letter designation has changed. So you are saying that if it was still all A teams, in D10 if a player moved they would choose Princeton, SLP, Coon Rapids, NCBD instead of going to Blaine, Centennial, or Elk River? But now that it is AA they would choose the latter? Does not add up... Yes, there were things that were administered poorly in the execution and implementation of the A/AA, I just don't see player movement as being one of them JMO.

[Shinbone_News]

Try asking people that are more informed than you.

Since you continue to want to make this personal, let me say that LOTS of people are more informed than me, which is precisely why I am asking them, and NONE of them (so far) are seeing evidence to support your claim, including the people YOU told me to talk to. I would think at least one other person has noticed this "1 to 3 studs" moving from a small association to "every top 10 team." None have stepped forward. When they do, I'll be sure to acknowledge it.

Fearing it's happening everywhere because it's happening where you are -- that doesn't make it true. If it were as big a problem as you say, I'm betting Minnesota Hockey would be happy to tighten the screws on their already tough --some say fascist -- residency rule. No association likes waiving kids out.

The burden of proof is on you, dude.

And oh, by the way: the MH participation rule stipulates that a waiver for a change of school usually means ineligibility for the receiving association's A team for one year, unless the student has completed the highest available grade at his/her former school.

Kinda makes your claim -- 1 to 3 studs moving to top 10 teams at every level -- sort of implausible.

[MrBoDangles]

Try asking people that are more informed than you.

Since you continue to want to make this personal, let me say that LOTS of people are more informed than me, which is precisely why I am asking them, and NONE of them (so far) are seeing evidence to support your claim, including the people YOU told me to talk to. I would think at least one other person has noticed this "1 to 3 studs" moving from a small association to "every top 10 team." None have stepped forward. When they do, I'll be sure to acknowledge it.

Fearing it's happening everywhere because it's happening where you are -- that doesn't make it true. If it were as big a problem as you say, I'm betting Minnesota Hockey would be happy to tighten the screws on their already tough --some say fascist -- residency rule. No association likes waiving kids out.

The burden of proof is on you, dude.

And oh, by the way: the MH participation rule stipulates that a waiver for a change of school usually means ineligibility for the receiving association's A team for one year, unless the student has completed the highest available grade at his/her former school.

Kinda makes your claim -- 1 to 3 studs moving to top 10 teams at every level -- sort of implausible.

Read back through the thread. Players moved "because of the AA/A pilot"(not my words, just words from two guys from only two of the associations affected))...... No, not all made the top teams at these mega associations. Some were studs at their former respective programs and only made A or EVEN B-1 at the mega associations...... But quite a few also made their top teams.

Some of the players I included were kids from weak AA programs that went to stronger AA programs because they didn't want to be left behind in the new pilot. Confusion of what the pilot was..

Cenntenial, St.Cloud, Minnetonka, Lakeville South, Minnetonka ,Edina etc etc etc... all gained from families trying to line themselves up for Hockey in the future.

Take away 40% of a mega associations scoring and see how happy the members are.

You started the "personal"

[MrBoDangles]

A kid in an A association is much more likely to leave for an AA association, just like how B-1 associations would always lose their best talent to A level programs.

It should be a no brainer then that this will multiply with more talented kids being back one to two competition levels..... And COMPOUND that with fewer (options) teams now than before playing at the top level.

Many of the top 10 ranked teams at each level took in 1 to even 3 top end players that were studs at their old associations.....

Try asking people that are more informed than you.

This should be simple for anybody to understand.

[MrBoDangles]

Mr. Bo is correct. Many familiies discussing the A/AA split and looking at options to leave. Regardless if they leave or not, the fact that the discussions are taking place is not a good thing for any District or program.

Hear the same things.

How would they expect to hear these same things in Edina and Elk River..?

[MrBoDangles]

I can tell you this much Irondale lost zero players due to the AA, A split and they are one of the smallest associations in district 10. I believe coon rapids and St Francis lost a few but none of those kids ended up on the top teams at the pee wee or bantam levels.

CR lost zero Bantams in 2012
Lost one PW
Do you count squirts if the games don't count???

Thank you for clarifying. I knew the Pee wee goalie moved to lakeville. I guess you could count squirts but they did not leave because of the AA, A split since that doesn't happen until Pee wee's

You "knew" about the Coon Rapids kid that moved to LVS and became their AA teams starting goalie. Why did you say that none of the kids made top teams if you knew this?

[MrBoDangles]

CR lost zero Bantams in 2012
Lost one PW
Do you count squirts if the games don't count???

Thank you for clarifying. I knew the Pee wee goalie moved to lakeville. I guess you could count squirts but they did not leave because of the AA, A split since that doesn't happen until Pee wee's

Squirts leaving can still be due to the AA/A split. Anyone that is going to make the move for that reason is likely looking forward enough to know that it will affect their squirt player in a year or two and make the move now instead of trying to crack the top team as a new player to the association.

Exactly!

The movement at the squirt level was the highest.

[InigoMontoya]

The burden of proof is on you, dude.

There are a half dozen on this thread and more on the other thread you two are arguing on.

I think it is established that yes, kids are moving, and yes, some are moving due to AA/A, and yes, some moved before due to B1/A.