The Future of Minnesota Youth AA Hockey?

[Bleed Maroon and Gold]

[quote="MrBoDangles"][quote="Bleed Maroon and Gold"][quote="CRBantamAcoach"][quote="Bleed Maroon and Gold"][quote="MrBoDangles"][quote="Shinbone_News"][quote="MrBoDangles"]

Shin, look ouside of Edina. The two nearest associations to me were hit very hard.

[/quote]

Names? Associations? Total numbers? Heck, give me a district. I'd take your word for it. But I'm tired of taking your word for it.

Mites don't count.

If this is an actual thing, then let's get the facts out and let them be known. Until then, it's just hearsay.

You provide a name -- say a district director or an association president -- I'll make the call and we'll find out how many families are selling their homes or changing schools just for youth hockey.[/quote]

Tim Timm D10 612-961-9011
Michelle Merth D2 651-353-1111
D3.... knock yourself out.[/quote]

I can tell you this much Irondale lost zero players due to the AA, A split and they are one of the smallest associations in district 10. I believe coon rapids and St Francis lost a few but none of those kids ended up on the top teams at the pee wee or bantam levels.[/quote]

CR lost zero Bantams in 2012
Lost one PW
Do you count squirts if the games don't count???[/quote]

Thank you for clarifying. I knew the Pee wee goalie moved to lakeville. I guess you could count squirts but they did not leave because of the AA, A split since that doesn't happen until Pee wee's[/quote]

You "knew" about the Coon Rapids kid that moved to LVS and became their AA teams starting goalie. Why did you say that none of the kids made top teams if you knew this?[/quote]

He did not move because of hockey. Talk to his parents and find out why he moved. I bet you haven't you just assume since he made their AA team he moved because of hockey. Wrong, I have talked to his parents they moved because of work and travel to and from work from Coon Rapids was not sensible.

[MrBoDangles]

Thank you for clarifying. I knew the Pee wee goalie moved to lakeville. I guess you could count squirts but they did not leave because of the AA, A split since that doesn't happen until Pee wee's

You "knew" about the Coon Rapids kid that moved to LVS and became their AA teams starting goalie. Why did you say that none of the kids made top teams if you knew this?

He did not move because of hockey. Talk to his parents and find out why he moved. I bet you haven't you just assume since he made their AA team he moved because of hockey. Wrong, I have talked to his parents they moved because of work and travel to and from work from Coon Rapids was not sensible.

That's what they ALL say.... Wouldn't you also say it was for other reasons to keep it smoothed over for all involved? Almost gotta lie to save face.

The people that live right next to their work and are trying to leave might have a tougher time coming up with an excuse.... "We're moving to be closer to the Mall of America? New zoo? My in-laws ? Valley fair? I've become a Catholic.....?" Gotta get more creative when this is the case.

[helightsthelamp]

A kid in an A association is much more likely to leave for an AA association, just like how B-1 associations would always lose their best talent to A level programs.

It should be a no brainer then that this will multiply with more talented kids being back one to two competition levels..... And COMPOUND that with fewer (options) teams now than before playing at the top level.

Many of the top 10 ranked teams at each level took in 1 to even 3 top end players that were studs at their old associations.....

Try asking people that are more informed than you.

This should be simple for anybody to understand.

When moving for hockey, I really don't see the difference if moving from B1 to A (old format), or A to AA (new format).

Players have moved in the past and will continue to move to larger higher ranked associations. The reasons they move are the same... Adding another A to Edina AA or Elk River AA does not change the dynamics of the landscape.

Do players now move to be on a AA team, yes. Would those same players moved to be on a different A team, or from B1 to A? IMO yes. Would it likely have chosen the same association to move to? IMO yes.

Does the new split do anything to keep those players where they are at? Likely not.

I just don't see where the letter designation really makes a difference at the end of the day..... The song remains the same.

[MrBoDangles]

A kid in an A association is much more likely to leave for an AA association, just like how B-1 associations would always lose their best talent to A level programs.

It should be a no brainer then that this will multiply with more talented kids being back one to two competition levels..... And COMPOUND that with fewer (options) teams now than before playing at the top level.

Many of the top 10 ranked teams at each level took in 1 to even 3 top end players that were studs at their old associations.....

Try asking people that are more informed than you.

This should be simple for anybody to understand.

-The movement of players will go up as long as you make the top of the pyramid smaller.

- We have less teams playing at the highest level now.

- Most of the talented kids would try to find their way there, if MNH had only eight teams play at a new (hypothetical) AAA level.

- You're fine being at Elk River.... but this pilot has fueled the fire of Hockey going downhill outside the mega associations.

- I don't want to argue with you guys but it's what we're seeing in the mid to smaller size associations. Would probably be easier to be discussed having some beers than it is thru a computer.

- Karl wrote a good article that explains some of it well on the HS forum.

I'm going to back off in hopes that others will have some good input. Good talking to you guys.

[helightsthelamp]

A kid in an A association is much more likely to leave for an AA association, just like how B-1 associations would always lose their best talent to A level programs.

It should be a no brainer then that this will multiply with more talented kids being back one to two competition levels..... And COMPOUND that with fewer (options) teams now than before playing at the top level.

Many of the top 10 ranked teams at each level took in 1 to even 3 top end players that were studs at their old associations.....

Try asking people that are more informed than you.

This should be simple for anybody to understand.

-The movement of players will go up as long as you make the top of the pyramid smaller.

- We have less teams playing at the highest level now.

- Most of the talented kids would try to find their way there, if MNH had only eight teams play at a new (hypothetical) AAA level.

- You're fine being at Elk River.... but this pilot has fueled the fire of Hockey going downhill outside the mega associations.

- I don't want to argue with you guys but it's what we're seeing in the mid to smaller size associations. Would probably be easier to be discussed having some beers than it is thru a computer.

- Karl wrote a good article that explains some of it well on the HS forum.

I'm going to back off in hopes that others will have some good input. Good talking to you guys.

I understand what you are saying, my point is, the smaller assocations were the one's that were losing players before to the mega assocations. That has not changed. If a player was not satisfied in playing for a smaller A team and would move to a larger A team, I don't really think that is compounded by designating the mega's as AA. I guess I just don't believe that that same player would now be more likely to move since there is an actual difference in the letter. Maybe I am wrong... Maybe the visual of AA over A is a reality check for some people and would now move/open enroll....

The pyramid is not really smaller in my opinion, it was have's and have not's before the A/AA designation.

The issue is how to keep kids in the small and mid sized assocation, that was an issue prior to A/AA. While the visual has been changed, the historical dynamics of which teams lose players and which teams gain players has not changed....

[helightsthelamp]

Thinking about this locally related to Elk River, historically has there been a player or two move to Elk River from Princeton for hockey reasons? yes. Did I see a huge infux last winter that changed from Princeton to Elk River because of A/AA, I am not aware of any. Have I seen any that appear to be moving this winter, none that I am aware of, but it is early.....

Elk River is AA, Princeton is A. Given the historical moves in the past, what you are saying is there are a couple of high end players in Princeton that will be moving to Elk River this winter since Princeton is now A and Elk River is AA.... We welcome the talent infusion, but no evidence yet of that happening.

Looking locally as well we should also expect the top end players from Becker/Big Lake and maybe even Rogers if they decide to field an A team...

Yes, small and mid sized assocations lose players to larger historically more sucessful assocations for hockey reasons. Is this multiplied drastically by A/AA, I don't think so, but another winter will be compelling either way.

[MrBoDangles]

Why do you think more associations scrambled to co-op in District 10 than ever before?

We have way less programs playing at the new, top level. And know for a fact that kids are not going to move to co-op associations.... The balance is shifting hard.

Again. MNH creates (hypothetical) a smaller pinnacle of eight "AAA" teams and families will scratch to get in. The peak hasn't become that small, yet, but MNH has made it quite a bit smaller.

That's why we saw the increase last year.

[MrBoDangles]

Thinking about this locally related to Elk River, historically has there been a player or two move to Elk River from Princeton for hockey reasons? yes. Did I see a huge infux last winter that changed from Princeton to Elk River because of A/AA, I am not aware of any. Have I seen any that appear to be moving this winter, none that I am aware of, but it is early.....

Elk River is AA, Princeton is A. Given the historical moves in the past, what you are saying is there are a couple of high end players in Princeton that will be moving to Elk River this winter since Princeton is now A and Elk River is AA.... We welcome the talent infusion, but no evidence yet of that happening.

Looking locally as well we should also expect the top end players from Becker/Big Lake and maybe even Rogers if they decide to field an A team...

Yes, small and mid sized assocations lose players to larger historically more sucessful assocations for hockey reasons. Is this multiplied drastically by A/AA, I don't think so, but another winter will be compelling either way.

Princeton and Rogers will likely end up losing their BEST players if they play a level back.

Why would the parents of these top end kids pay out their --- for training all year only to come back to winter Hockey at a lesser level of competition and development that can be had at AA.......... "We're moving to be closer to work" is what you're going to hear.

Rogers and Princeton kids used to be able to say they played at the same level as the Elk River kids....... Not the case anymore.

It's the infusion of high impact kids that are tipping the scales. Get your "WELCOME" mats out.

[helightsthelamp]

Thinking about this locally related to Elk River, historically has there been a player or two move to Elk River from Princeton for hockey reasons? yes. Did I see a huge infux last winter that changed from Princeton to Elk River because of A/AA, I am not aware of any. Have I seen any that appear to be moving this winter, none that I am aware of, but it is early.....

Elk River is AA, Princeton is A. Given the historical moves in the past, what you are saying is there are a couple of high end players in Princeton that will be moving to Elk River this winter since Princeton is now A and Elk River is AA.... We welcome the talent infusion, but no evidence yet of that happening.

Looking locally as well we should also expect the top end players from Becker/Big Lake and maybe even Rogers if they decide to field an A team...

Yes, small and mid sized assocations lose players to larger historically more sucessful assocations for hockey reasons. Is this multiplied drastically by A/AA, I don't think so, but another winter will be compelling either way.

Princeton and Rogers will likely end up losing their BEST players if they play a level back.

Why would the parents of these top end kids pay out their --- for training all year only to come back to winter Hockey at a lesser level of competition and development that can be had at AA.......... "We're moving to be closer to work" is what you're going to hear.

Rogers and Princeton kids used to be able to say they played at the same level as the Elk River kids....... Not the case anymore.

It's the infusion of high impact kids that are tipping the scales. Get your "WELCOME" mats out.

Across the board and with the exception of one off levels, Princeton has historically not competed with Elk River. Their Squirt group last winter did compete. Older years typically not even a close game. In many years, they did not field an A team...in years when they did not field an A team, There has not been a mass exodus of top players leaving. They could not say they played at the same level when not fielding an A team. The co-op teams were not competitive with top teams prior to split and some did not field A teams (see St. Francis)... Might just help keep a few kids in their assocation with the co-op

Flight of a top player would happen if fielding B1 team or A team that could not compete. Am I going to stay on an A team that does not compete with other A teams just because I can say I am an A... or am I more likely to leave because I want to be on a more competitive team with more of a winning tradtion, hypothetically better coaching and competing with better players day in and day out at practice? I still think it has more to do with the latter. Maybe I am to logical and those are really not the reason people change assocations, but more for the reason that they can say they play at the highest level. Will there be one off's here and there that move for that reason of being on the highest level team, I would assume so. Does it now create this monster that sucks the life out of every small to mid sized association, that I don't buy. As such, I will conceed this, does it add one more thing to the list of reasons people may leave, yes. I just don't see that as the primary reason and likely more a combination of bad coaching, losing tradition and yes over zealous parents. Is this the straw that broke the camel's back? Time will tell.

[InigoMontoya]

Wasn't there a rubber-stamp philosophy regarding waivers for players to compete at higher levels? If association X didn't field an A team, then player from X was allowed to try out for association Y's A team; if he made the A team, waiver complete, if not he was sent back to X's B team. Is this the case for A to AA, as well?

[greybeard58]

AA/A players are all registered as "A" Bantam or "A" Peewee. AA/A only comes into play starting with the District tournament.

[MrBoDangles]

AA/A players are all registered as "A" Bantam or "A" Peewee. AA/A only comes into play starting with the District tournament.

Ever heard of District 6?

That'll be the trend..

A is really B-1.

[MrBoDangles]

I can tell you this much Irondale lost zero players due to the AA, A split and they are one of the smallest associations in district 10. I believe coon rapids and St Francis lost a few but none of those kids ended up on the top teams at the pee wee or bantam levels.

You must be missing some players because some ended up playing for top 10 teams at their level... And there were other associations that took even bigger hits.

Irondale (fortunate) probably would have lost players without the merge with St Francis....... Make sure you merge with someone again.

And what associations did these kids leave from and what associations did these players go to. I am 100% sure you wont name the associations since you never have.

How's the switch from Irondale to Centennial going??

[Bleed Maroon and Gold]

[quote="MrBoDangles"][quote="Bleed Maroon and Gold"][quote="MrBoDangles"][quote="Bleed Maroon and Gold"][quote="MrBoDangles"][quote="Shinbone_News"][quote="MrBoDangles"]

Shin, look ouside of Edina. The two nearest associations to me were hit very hard.

[/quote]

Names? Associations? Total numbers? Heck, give me a district. I'd take your word for it. But I'm tired of taking your word for it.

Mites don't count.

If this is an actual thing, then let's get the facts out and let them be known. Until then, it's just hearsay.

You provide a name -- say a district director or an association president -- I'll make the call and we'll find out how many families are selling their homes or changing schools just for youth hockey.[/quote]

Tim Timm D10 612-961-9011
Michelle Merth D2 651-353-1111
D3.... knock yourself out.[/quote]

I can tell you this much Irondale lost zero players due to the AA, A split and they are one of the smallest associations in district 10. I believe coon rapids and St Francis lost a few but none of those kids ended up on the top teams at the pee wee or bantam levels.[/quote]

You must be missing some players because some ended up playing for top 10 teams at their level... And there were other associations that took even bigger hits.

Irondale (fortunate) probably would have lost players without the merge with St Francis....... Make sure you merge with someone again. :wink:[/quote]

And what associations did these kids leave from and what associations did these players go to. I am 100% sure you wont name the associations since you never have.[/quote]

How's the switch from Irondale to Centennial going??

:lol:[/quote]

Its going great my kid is super happy that we made the move.

:lol:

[MrBoDangles]

Good for him. Some great folks over there.