Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)
HD41 ... relevant post ...karl(east) wrote:Moderator's note: this thread was split off from the Squirtacular topic since it wandered off into bigger questions.
Unfortunately, the splitting tool didn't behave the way it was supposed to, and a handful of posts I'd intended to keep in the Squirtacular thread (namely the two right before this one) ended up here. I'd suggest that HockeyDad41 re-post his question to the relevant thread, and that any responses to his question go over there.
It was relevant to the thread it was split from. Sorry for your confusion.DrGaf wrote:HD41 ... relevant post ...karl(east) wrote:Moderator's note: this thread was split off from the Squirtacular topic since it wandered off into bigger questions.
Unfortunately, the splitting tool didn't behave the way it was supposed to, and a handful of posts I'd intended to keep in the Squirtacular thread (namely the two right before this one) ended up here. I'd suggest that HockeyDad41 re-post his question to the relevant thread, and that any responses to his question go over there.
You sort of make my point if you ask me with this post. That being that if the MN model "captures it all" then the idea is that winter hockey is about assoication hockey and making it a fulfilling experience for all and summer hockey is about playing with and against the "best" and price and location be d#@ned... but if that is the "theory" then this Squirtacular flies in the face of that because it aims to bring the summer hockey mentality into winter association hockey which to me is "controversial" and perhaps the wrong way to go about it (I mena it's why this thread is persisting.....O-townClown wrote:I agree. Which is why the Minnesota model with association hockey in Winter and club hockey in Summer really captures it all. Of course that comes at a price, which I think this thread is about.InigoMontoya wrote:So what is the problem and answer? This post would indicate that any really good New Prague kids - at least occasionally - should be skating with Prior Lake.
I don't see a low-cost foundation fulfilling all the perceived needs of parents. As a result there are a slew of additional hockey opportunities in your area.
I think that's a good thing.
)That a way Bo! I just knew you were keeping your options open. Renting before buying will let you test drive the association and get to know folks before fully committing...MrBoDangles wrote:http://www.trulia.com/for_rent/Edina,MN ... HOME_type/
Our association ran four tournaments last year. A U8 jamboree, a Squirt tourney, Pee Wee tourney and a Bantam tourney. Cost was $550 with NO gate fees. 3 game guarantee with possibility of a 4th game depending on how many teams were entered in a division etc..... We did the typical thing of asking local businesses for donations for raffle and silent auction stuff, and/or other donations (pretty typical), we also do a "chuck-a-duck" (yes duck) in between 1 period of each of every game where its a 50/50 deal that the person closest gets 50% fo the money raised from that round. We ran quality tourneys that everyone was happy with and we had alot of high compliments. The four tournaments netted us $6,000 after our costs..... Not sure where you are from but that is some pretty good meat for a small association like ours that last year had 1 Bantam team, 2 pee wee teams, 2 squirt teams, 3 U8 teams, about 25 kids in cross ice and another 60 kids in Learn to Play..... That was "worth it" for us......Bluewhitefan wrote:Not much meat on the bone @ 800 after paying for ice, refs, EMTs, trinkets/trophies etc. There may be a minimal amount left, but is it really worth the trouble if it does little to fund some of the operating costs of the association?observer wrote: There's profit to be made at $800 per team.
I believe it is. If you are talking to college and professional players from Minnesota, and if "playing on the highest team available" means the A team from their local association, then I would agree with you, beginning at squirts or later. College and professional players from other parts of the country have had little other opportunity to do anything other than play within their areas structure as it exists.O-townClown wrote:Is it? Whenever I ask pro and college hockey players what they did at age 8 or 10 it generally involves playing on the highest level team available to them.SECoach wrote:The problem though is long term.
"The problem" isn't clearly defined, or at least it differs depending on who you ask.
I'm as big an advocate for participation and recreational sports as you'll find. However, the kids that really enjoy something are missing out if they don't have a chance to play - at least occasionally - with others like them. Had this discussion with a 9-year-old friend of my son today, and his sport is tennis.
I'm with you and my statements are not meant to be taken as absolute. It's a matter of degree and a matter of appropriate age with that degree. Too much too soon is what we get caught up in, but in my opinion it hinders development, enjoyment, and passion later.BenDangle wrote:I agree that when I was a kid I loved playing at the public rink against all levels of play.
But I gotta tell ya, dangling the in-house kids got boring after a while and getting invited to the traditional Sunday game with goalies at our rink was almost as cool as the first time I put on a varsity jersey.
My point is this, competitive people want to play against other competitive people to see where they stand.
Do you suggest sweater vests, courderoy pants and penny loafers for casual, at the rink, attire?stromboli wrote:That a way Bo! I just knew you were keeping your options open. Renting before buying will let you test drive the association and get to know folks before fully committing...MrBoDangles wrote:http://www.trulia.com/for_rent/Edina,MN ... HOME_type/
)....When you say, "Our team wants to play the best," could you please define who "our team" is? Did a bunch of squirts hold a players' only meeting and come up with this? Or was it -- do I dare say it? The fathers and a parent coach decided they wanted to play "the best." When my kids were squirt age, I don't remember any of those kinds of conversations taking place. They just wanted to have fun. Come on, fess up, the dads want to puff their chests out and be able to tell everyone their kid's favorite color is orange.BenDangle wrote:Our team wants to play the best. I'm not sure that is a crime. No offense to tournaments with less prestige/less cost, but winning those and saving a few bucks is a waste of time.
We'd rather win (or at least try to) The Moose, Fargo, EP or Squirtacular than the BFE Cheapskate Cup and play second tier teams.
The list of past champions of these 3 tourneys is a list of the who's who in Squirt Hockey the past 10+ years, that's who we want to be. And guess what, we don't care if it costs 26 more dollars than the other tournament.
If you don't like the price, don't play.
Wow, you couldn't be more wrong. I remember a game this past winter, we were in the locker room before the game and one of the kids asked who we were playing (this was a tournament). I told him we were playing XYZ and his response was that these guys aren't very good and that those types of games aren't much fun. I asked him which games were fun and he said it was more fun playing the tough teams. That was the consensus in the locker room. Don't underestimate those 9-10 yr olds, they know what is going on.hockeygoof1 wrote:When you say, "Our team wants to play the best," could you please define who "our team" is? Did a bunch of squirts hold a players' only meeting and come up with this? Or was it -- do I dare say it? The fathers and a parent coach decided they wanted to play "the best." When my kids were squirt age, I don't remember any of those kinds of conversations taking place. They just wanted to have fun. Come on, fess up, the dads want to puff their chests out and be able to tell everyone their kid's favorite color is orange.BenDangle wrote:Our team wants to play the best. I'm not sure that is a crime. No offense to tournaments with less prestige/less cost, but winning those and saving a few bucks is a waste of time.
We'd rather win (or at least try to) The Moose, Fargo, EP or Squirtacular than the BFE Cheapskate Cup and play second tier teams.
The list of past champions of these 3 tourneys is a list of the who's who in Squirt Hockey the past 10+ years, that's who we want to be. And guess what, we don't care if it costs 26 more dollars than the other tournament.
If you don't like the price, don't play.
Our team wants to play the best. That's kind of funny, but not ha-ha funny. Nine and ten-year-olds, "Dad, the guys have gotten together and we've decided we want to play the best." You're killing me.
I will not comment on the exact financial arrangement that was made between YHH and BAHA (or any other associations that we help). I will say this, what was proposed was accepted unilaterally and immediately by all three association presidents (Jefferson, Kennedy, Girls). All three associations will bring in substantially more money as a result of their marketing partnership with YHH this year and their number of volunteer hours will be reduced by 80%.SECoach wrote:I'm with you and my statements are not meant to be taken as absolute. It's a matter of degree and a matter of appropriate age with that degree. Too much too soon is what we get caught up in, but in my opinion it hinders development, enjoyment, and passion later.BenDangle wrote:I agree that when I was a kid I loved playing at the public rink against all levels of play.
But I gotta tell ya, dangling the in-house kids got boring after a while and getting invited to the traditional Sunday game with goalies at our rink was almost as cool as the first time I put on a varsity jersey.
My point is this, competitive people want to play against other competitive people to see where they stand.
I truly don't mean to be offensive with this statement, but it's easy for the parent of a mite or squirt, to say that their kid loves it. I can't disagree. I've just seen that passion dissipate over time when it was too big time when they were young. Many of these same kids drop out or lose passion by the time they could truly be called elite players, not to mention the physical and mental development opportunities lost by the lack of free play time taken away by too much structured activity.
It's not a great analogy, but a familiar one. If someone loves pizza they might eat it everyday if they could and it was supported and even encouraged by their parents. For MOST, at some point, pizza would begin to lose its appeal. Worse yet, this diet heavy in pizza at a young age may have a hand in causing Type 2 diabetes and other ill effects, so that the now teen or adult has to severely limit their pizza consumption. With more reasonable quantities at a young age, they may have begun to enjoy pizza even more, and explore something other than cheese on it.
Kids that aspire to be NHL players, movie stars, etc dream of the lifestyle that comes with it. Ask some NHL players how much they enjoy the travel schedules that come with the job. No put a similar travel schedule on an 8 year old. I submit that they are likely to be sick of it before they even get to the big time. How many child actors are out of acting or screwed up by the time the get to their teens. Maybe totally unrelated to kids playing a game, but not in my mind.
Just so I can tie this back to the topic of "The cost of tournaments", I'd like to have someone from YHH confirm that ALL proceeds from the squirtacular will be going to Bloomington Hockey and that all "sponsors" will be donating time and money and not taking any. If this is strictly a fundraiser for Bloomington Hockey, I'll get off my soap box regarding this tournament and turn to topics more related. I still have problems with how the parents desire to be in "big time" squirt tournaments is hurting the game, but I'll quit pointing directly at this one.
Good for them, and it's great you filled all the spots.... still doesn't make it right in my book...YouthHockeyHub wrote:I will not comment on the exact financial arrangement that was made between YHH and BAHA (or any other associations that we help). I will say this, what was proposed was accepted unilaterally and immediately by all three association presidents (Jefferson, Kennedy, Girls). All three associations will bring in substantially more money as a result of their marketing partnership with YHH this year and their number of volunteer hours will be reduced by 80%.SECoach wrote:I'm with you and my statements are not meant to be taken as absolute. It's a matter of degree and a matter of appropriate age with that degree. Too much too soon is what we get caught up in, but in my opinion it hinders development, enjoyment, and passion later.BenDangle wrote:I agree that when I was a kid I loved playing at the public rink against all levels of play.
But I gotta tell ya, dangling the in-house kids got boring after a while and getting invited to the traditional Sunday game with goalies at our rink was almost as cool as the first time I put on a varsity jersey.
My point is this, competitive people want to play against other competitive people to see where they stand.
I truly don't mean to be offensive with this statement, but it's easy for the parent of a mite or squirt, to say that their kid loves it. I can't disagree. I've just seen that passion dissipate over time when it was too big time when they were young. Many of these same kids drop out or lose passion by the time they could truly be called elite players, not to mention the physical and mental development opportunities lost by the lack of free play time taken away by too much structured activity.
It's not a great analogy, but a familiar one. If someone loves pizza they might eat it everyday if they could and it was supported and even encouraged by their parents. For MOST, at some point, pizza would begin to lose its appeal. Worse yet, this diet heavy in pizza at a young age may have a hand in causing Type 2 diabetes and other ill effects, so that the now teen or adult has to severely limit their pizza consumption. With more reasonable quantities at a young age, they may have begun to enjoy pizza even more, and explore something other than cheese on it.
Kids that aspire to be NHL players, movie stars, etc dream of the lifestyle that comes with it. Ask some NHL players how much they enjoy the travel schedules that come with the job. No put a similar travel schedule on an 8 year old. I submit that they are likely to be sick of it before they even get to the big time. How many child actors are out of acting or screwed up by the time the get to their teens. Maybe totally unrelated to kids playing a game, but not in my mind.
Just so I can tie this back to the topic of "The cost of tournaments", I'd like to have someone from YHH confirm that ALL proceeds from the squirtacular will be going to Bloomington Hockey and that all "sponsors" will be donating time and money and not taking any. If this is strictly a fundraiser for Bloomington Hockey, I'll get off my soap box regarding this tournament and turn to topics more related. I still have problems with how the parents desire to be in "big time" squirt tournaments is hurting the game, but I'll quit pointing directly at this one.
I feel it is a mistake for Minnesota Hockey to sanction this tournament. Now that private, for profit businesses have been allowed to hold a sanctioned tournament, our model of community based hockey has ended in my mind. You will soon no longer see the Edina or Eden Prairie squirt A, B and C teams, you will see, Red Baron Pizza, Tires for Less, and Youth Hockey Hub teams in the winter. The wolf has entered the chicken coup, and has quickly gobbled up our prize hen. Minnesota Hockey can waive to Michigan, New England, New York, and others as they pass by. Those that ignore history are doomed to repeat it.YouthHockeyHub wrote:I will not comment on the exact financial arrangement that was made between YHH and BAHA (or any other associations that we help). I will say this, what was proposed was accepted unilaterally and immediately by all three association presidents (Jefferson, Kennedy, Girls). All three associations will bring in substantially more money as a result of their marketing partnership with YHH this year and their number of volunteer hours will be reduced by 80%.SECoach wrote:I'm with you and my statements are not meant to be taken as absolute. It's a matter of degree and a matter of appropriate age with that degree. Too much too soon is what we get caught up in, but in my opinion it hinders development, enjoyment, and passion later.BenDangle wrote:I agree that when I was a kid I loved playing at the public rink against all levels of play.
But I gotta tell ya, dangling the in-house kids got boring after a while and getting invited to the traditional Sunday game with goalies at our rink was almost as cool as the first time I put on a varsity jersey.
My point is this, competitive people want to play against other competitive people to see where they stand.
I truly don't mean to be offensive with this statement, but it's easy for the parent of a mite or squirt, to say that their kid loves it. I can't disagree. I've just seen that passion dissipate over time when it was too big time when they were young. Many of these same kids drop out or lose passion by the time they could truly be called elite players, not to mention the physical and mental development opportunities lost by the lack of free play time taken away by too much structured activity.
It's not a great analogy, but a familiar one. If someone loves pizza they might eat it everyday if they could and it was supported and even encouraged by their parents. For MOST, at some point, pizza would begin to lose its appeal. Worse yet, this diet heavy in pizza at a young age may have a hand in causing Type 2 diabetes and other ill effects, so that the now teen or adult has to severely limit their pizza consumption. With more reasonable quantities at a young age, they may have begun to enjoy pizza even more, and explore something other than cheese on it.
Kids that aspire to be NHL players, movie stars, etc dream of the lifestyle that comes with it. Ask some NHL players how much they enjoy the travel schedules that come with the job. No put a similar travel schedule on an 8 year old. I submit that they are likely to be sick of it before they even get to the big time. How many child actors are out of acting or screwed up by the time the get to their teens. Maybe totally unrelated to kids playing a game, but not in my mind.
Just so I can tie this back to the topic of "The cost of tournaments", I'd like to have someone from YHH confirm that ALL proceeds from the squirtacular will be going to Bloomington Hockey and that all "sponsors" will be donating time and money and not taking any. If this is strictly a fundraiser for Bloomington Hockey, I'll get off my soap box regarding this tournament and turn to topics more related. I still have problems with how the parents desire to be in "big time" squirt tournaments is hurting the game, but I'll quit pointing directly at this one.