Open vs Closed Tryouts

[luckyEPDad]

Secrecy breeds mistrust. Even if everyone is above board closing the doors and covering the windows makes you wonder what has to be hidden.

I don't know how my daughter feels about me watching her practice or play. I get an eye-roll when I tag along, but afterwards she usually asks how I thought she did and we talk about memorable plays. Its fun to hear her break things down and describe how she'd do things differently if given the chance. I do know that she can't hear anything coming from the stands. A foot apart on opposite sides of the glass and we can't hear each other.

EP used to have open tryouts. Half or less of the parents stuck around to watch, sitting in the stands and spending more time talking quietly to each other than watching hockey. I never witnessed or heard rumors of any bad behavior or attempts to influence. About six (?) years ago they switched over to closed practices and people began complaining about how the rules don't apply to coach such and such or board member whoever. I don't think anyone cares very much about a parent coach seeing part of a closed tryout, but if you are treated like ill behaved children you tend to act that way.

[JSR]

I totaly agree with this statement. I've been a non-parent coach for years, and I have seen both types of tryouts, and really can't say which is better. But I want you parents to ask your kids what they want, and I gaurantee at least 90% if not more will want closed tryouts. I've been an evaluator at many tryouts, for all ages, I have asked these kids in the lockerooms the question of do you want there parents watching, and majority of the time, the answer is NO!! They don't want you parents watching and critiqing everything they do, they hear enough of that crap on the drive home. They do feel the pressure of the tryouts, and there is added pressure with the parents in attendance. I mean, how much do the parents in attendance really know about hockey anyway.

My advice is, drop your kids off and go to the bar or get a cup of cooffee and try to relax, chances are your baby is not going to make the NHL or even play D1 college hockey or play hockey past the bantam level. Youth hockey is a very short time of their lives, lets try to make it a positive and fun expirience.

I think you are way over the top with your 90% number.... completely made up stat, but if we are goign to GUESS what the percentage is, I would bet it is more like 30-40% would want closed tryouts, and 50-60% probably could care less if they were open or closed and maybe 5-10% would want open tryouts and I think I am being generous on the 30-40% wanting closed, I think the majority do not care either way

JSR, how many times have you set foot in a lockeroom at tryouts and asked the kids that question of open or closed tryouts..? When you have a chance to do that, get back to us and let us know, I think you will be suprised at what you hear.

I do alot of evaluations for soccer and hockey where I live, perhaps you missed that part, but to answer your question directly actually in a way twice I've been involved in asking that question, once for soccer and once for hockey, though many of the same kids were involved. Same season two years ago because soccer had closed tryouts and hockey had open tryouts and it's alot of the same families. So it became an "issue" with soccer having closed tryouts. So we did our parental input stuff and some "polling of the kids" and we asked the kids, guess what, overwhelmingly they didn't care either way. They said it didn't matter and had no bearing on what they did during tryouts. The reality is that most parents are not overbearing and over controlling. The group of "those parents" that people are talking about when this stuff comes up do exist but they are a small minority. They are vocal and noticeable and hence put a cloud on things but they are not a majority hence the overwhelming majority of kids do not care either way because most fo their parents are not like that. My stats are as made up as the other guys because I cannot speak for the entirety of kids enrolled in USA hockey programs but I actually do speak from experience and my experience is the kids overall don't care, of the kids we asked yes a few kids wanted closed and I thinkk it was because they had "those parents", and 1 kid actually wanted open because his parents being their helped him stay calm (only child, probably other things at work there too ) but overwhelming majority didn't care one way or another.

[JSR]

I do notice one other thing, it seems like if a person is a parent coach (even if you are an assistant) and if their kid is even remotely good (not a bubble kid) it is automatically assumed they are one of "those parents" because how else could the kid be that good, yet most of the people putting that label on those people do not know them at all and that kid makes top teams and AAA teams and I think it fuels the fire of jealousy amongst the people who have kids who are bubble kids etc.... and everything just gets assumed, I mean god forbid a kid actually loves to play the game and was born with natural athleticism to boot, nope it must be that parent is the second come of the devil and forces their kid to practice 20 hours a day.... point being jealousy enevitably is the primary root force drives things like closed tryouts

[Teamusa1980]

I sat on a our hockey board for 6 consecutive years. I think I have earned a little credibility on this topic. I will try to put this in perspective, for those of you who actually serve your community on a board will know exactly what I am about to attempt to say. Again, our association has closed tryouts. Every year at election time a mob of b/c parents(typically at the squirt/u10 level) is formed to get "their guy" on the board. "Their guy" cannot wait to blow the whistle on all the corruption by the current board.
"The good ol boys club" will finally be sought out, board members/coaches will be tarred and feathered and the corruption will finally come to an end!!! Well much to "their guys" surprise there was no "good ol boys club" there was no need to tar and feather board/coaches and there was no corruption. Now what happens to "their guy"? Well they had no intention of serving the hockey community so they quit or do nothing to serve their position. Who loses in this? The entire association because time was wasted on a tryout process that was not broken in the first place. Bottom line, stay out of the way. Here's is an idea. Start taking responsibility for your own kids abilities and stop blaming tryouts, coaches, evaluators, the board or whatever else you can think of. Remember, with every tough decisions a coach has to make on a "bubble" kid there is a separating factor. You, the parent, should not be that factor. (unless you are a hot mom)

[Marty2013]

I say leave them open, only thing closing them does is make people think something goofy is going on. who are you really protecting by closing them? the Kids? think the car ride home is bad enough when parents can see whats going on. Now look at it when they DO NOT KNOW whats going on. do you think they don't press the kid for every answer under the book. and most kids come back and say they thought they did well. open gives perception things are honest.

[JSR]

I say leave them open, only thing closing them does is make people think something goofy is going on. who are you really protecting by closing them? the Kids? think the car ride home is bad enough when parents can see whats going on. Now look at it when they DO NOT KNOW whats going on. do you think they don't press the kid for every answer under the book. and most kids come back and say they thought they did well. open gives perception things are honest.

Great answer

[JSR]

I sat on a our hockey board for 6 consecutive years. I think I have earned a little credibility on this topic. I will try to put this in perspective, for those of you who actually serve your community on a board will know exactly what I am about to attempt to say. Again, our association has closed tryouts. Every year at election time a mob of b/c parents(typically at the squirt/u10 level) is formed to get "their guy" on the board. "Their guy" cannot wait to blow the whistle on all the corruption by the current board.
"The good ol boys club" will finally be sought out, board members/coaches will be tarred and feathered and the corruption will finally come to an end!!! Well much to "their guys" surprise there was no "good ol boys club" there was no need to tar and feather board/coaches and there was no corruption. Now what happens to "their guy"? Well they had no intention of serving the hockey community so they quit or do nothing to serve their position. Who loses in this? The entire association because time was wasted on a tryout process that was not broken in the first place. Bottom line, stay out of the way. Here's is an idea. Start taking responsibility for your own kids abilities and stop blaming tryouts, coaches, evaluators, the board or whatever else you can think of. Remember, with every tough decisions a coach has to make on a "bubble" kid there is a separating factor. You, the parent, should not be that factor. (unless you are a hot mom)

I have sat on both hockey and soccer boards and have some credibility too and that was your situation. I was on a board where even within the board there was "secret meeting" and behind the scenes stuff going on. Corruption and unfortunate things do happen happen, maybe not everywhere but they do happen and because they do happen in some places your place gets thrown in the mix by some parents, fair or not that is the percetpion and perception is reality and when you close tryouts you only fuel that fire....

[SCBlueLiner]

I'm for open tryouts. Closed tryouts wouldn't bother me but I don't want to deal with parents thinking we are doing things in secret.

One bad thing about open tryouts. Last season we had a first year squirt at tryouts who we knew was a dynamite player. He was coming off playing football, hadn't been on the ice in a while, and ended up having a poor tryout. So we're sitting there in an open tryout and this kid's performance is on display for all the other parents to see. The kid had size, speed, agility, shot, coachability, we knew what type of player he was, he just had a very bad showing. We took him anyway. I know there was grumblings from a couple of parents who thought their kid should have made the top team instead.

In the end we were right. The kid was a dominant force for the team. Had an excellent season and turned out to be one of our top players.

We have another kid who if you watch him do some transition, edgework, and stickhandling drills he looks like he can't even skate. Looks like garbage. Put him in a game environment and his size, speed, and power will allow him to take over a game and flat out dominate. He's just not a drill/practice player. He wouldn't make an A team in most places in the state after being "evaluated' in drills but AAA coaches drool over this kid when they see him play in the summer.

Tryouts are great but they don't always tell the whole story about a player. You have to trust your coaches sometimes. We've all watched Miracle. Herb didn't even have tryouts.

[JSR]

I'm for open tryouts. Closed tryouts wouldn't bother me but I don't want to deal with parents thinking we are doing things in secret.

One bad thing about open tryouts. Last season we had a first year squirt at tryouts who we knew was a dynamite player. He was coming off playing football, hadn't been on the ice in a while, and ended up having a poor tryout. So we're sitting there in an open tryout and this kid's performance is on display for all the other parents to see. The kid had size, speed, agility, shot, coachability, we knew what type of player he was, he just had a very bad showing. We took him anyway. I know there was grumblings from a couple of parents who thought their kid should have made the top team instead.

In the end we were right. The kid was a dominant force for the team. Had an excellent season and turned out to be one of our top players.

We have another kid who if you watch him do some transition, edgework, and stickhandling drills he looks like he can't even skate. Looks like garbage. Put him in a game environment and his size, speed, and power will allow him to take over a game and flat out dominate. He's just not a drill/practice player. He wouldn't make an A team in most places in the state after being "evaluated' in drills but AAA coaches drool over this kid when they see him play in the summer.

Tryouts are great but they don't always tell the whole story about a player. You have to trust your coaches sometimes. We've all watched Miracle. Herb didn't even have tryouts.

Totally agree with you here. In soccer we have paid nonparent coaches. Usually we have an A and a B team for an age level. When it comes time for tryouts the evaluators are the previous seasons A team coach, the previous seasons B team coach and 1 independent nonparent evaluator. I have been the independent evaluator for many of these. My job is to bring to the table the unbiased view of what happened in the tryout with little outside influence of who did what during the season. I stack rank all the players #1 through #whatever and then after tryouts the three of us get together to come to a consensus stack ranking that is presented to the board. During the process when the three of us are together the two coaches very much bring in their perspective (and bias) of how teh player performed during the season. Just like in everything we usually agree on the top 5 with zero discussion, it is usually players 6+ that we have our entertaining discussions about but how a kid actually performed in the previouss season should absolultey be PART of the equation, not the only part but defiitely part of it and I think we do a pretty good job of sorting it properly when it is all said and done

[SECoach]

I support the closed tryouts in my association but really think it just trades one problem for another. My reason for supporting closed tryouts is not to eliminate the crazy acting parent, or the one that issues instructions while kids are on the ice. Parents misbehaving publicly during tryouts is pretty rare. When tryouts are open, you have let's say 50 additional parent evaluators. Let's face it, it is almost impossible for parents to see things through clear eyes. We love our kids and want the best for them. I have evaluated a lot of tryouts and coached a lot of teams. When I am watching my kids from the stands, or watching them not play, whatever the case may be.....I have a hard time not feeling like a parent. I notice the good things my kids do, and tend to notice the bad things others do. I feel anxious when someone else is playing over them. I fight it, but at least I recognize it happens and it allows me to function normally during these times. Most of those extra evaluators, as a normal part of being a parent, and focusing their thoughts on one skater, see thing differently. With closed tryouts, they don't have anything to see. Their buddy doesn't tell them that they got screwed. Most of those extra evaluators see things tilted in one direction. Its just the way we parents are. I can't begin to say how many times a parent watched tryouts and arrived at conclusions that were so far off base that it was sad to see, and then sad to see the posse of parents that formed to throw the bums out. Guess what, they thought their kids had a super duper tryout too.

When I am coaching or evaluating, I don't get these feelings at all. When I'm a spectator, they sneak up on me. I can't explain it, but I admit it happens.

I know as a parent, I feel much more comfortable not watching. If we had open tryouts, I would probably watch and notice all the faults of other players, and minimize the faults of my own kids. I think MOST parents experience the same thing (although I'm not sure my wife does). They should not have to apologize for it, but should at least recognize it. Do people cheat sometimes? Although not nearly as often as thought, I'm sure they do. Open or closed tryouts don't fix that.

[SammyOB]

My advice is, drop your kids off and go to the bar or get a cup of cooffee and try to relax, chances are your baby is not going to make the NHL or even play D1 college hockey or play hockey past the bantam level. Youth hockey is a very short time of their lives, lets try to make it a positive and fun expirience.

You could not have said it better! Thank you! As far as tryouts go...Parents = Problems. We have never had a player call up and complain after tryout.

[MrBoDangles]

Why do summer programs all have open tryouts....? Because they have nothing to hide and they're only there to put the best team on the ice.

Why don't some winter associations do the same? Easy! This would pull some deciding power away from the decision making..... And we know it's all about that power..

[HockeyDad41]

Some parents are well adjusted, enjoy the process and simply want to watch their child and share the experience in a healthy way. There ought to be a section set aside for them.

The rest of us can jockey for position behind that one spot where the paper doesn't quite cover the glass......

[Shinbone_News]

Interesting that "total transparency" at Edina means kids wear their jerseys with names prominently on the back.

Is this an acknowledgement that the name is actually factored into the evaluation??? [Surprises exactly no one.]

In spite of what sometimes is said on this board, I've heard that Edina pretty regularly snubs move-ins, saying something along the lines of "You need to be a good member of our association with some history here before we just hand you a place on the AA team, and relegate the kid of an NHLer." (OK, I embellished that last part.)

There is no question that politics is hot and heavy in Edina. The question is, do names on the back of the jersey during tryouts make this more transparent?

Maintianing the appearance of anonymity and impartiality -- that seems like a good idea, though there will always be conspiracies afoot.

[Deep Breath]

I like open. In addition, the evaluators' scores should be made public after the fact as well. You want transparency with this sort of thing and this is a great way to do it. Also, associations should be involved in an evaluator "swap" as well. Association "X" has 4 evaluators go do the evaluations for Association "Y" and vice versa. Then you place the top-12 on the "AA" team and the head coach can choose the final 3 roster spots. Also, having been on the ice, i am going to disagree with those who think that players are hearing the comments being made by parents up in the stands.

[Teamusa1980]

I like open. In addition, the evaluators' scores should be made public after the fact as well. You want transparency with this sort of thing and this is a great way to do it. Also, associations should be involved in an evaluator "swap" as well. Association "X" has 4 evaluators go do the evaluations for Association "Y" and vice versa. Then you place the top-12 on the "AA" team and the head coach can choose the final 3 roster spots. Also, having been on the ice, i am going to disagree with those who think that players are hearing the comments being made by parents up in the stands.

What a great idea!! Let's have evaluators from Edina judge tryouts from Wayzata and vice versa. I'm sure that would run smooth as silk. I see zero issues with that at all!! Starting to see why so many enjoy summer AAA over association. As much as I hate checkbook hockey at least with AAA you are not FORCED to take an idiot family. See evaluators scores? Why stop there: Why not allow parents to sit next to the evaluators. Why stop there: Parents come on out and hold your kids hand the entire time, better yet do the drills for them. Why stop there: How bout you evaluate your own kids tryout. Why do we even need levels??? Everyone is a AA player!! No wonder why there are so few good/honest people on boards or volunteer to coach, too many idiots to put up with!

[JSR]

I like open. In addition, the evaluators' scores should be made public after the fact as well. You want transparency with this sort of thing and this is a great way to do it. Also, associations should be involved in an evaluator "swap" as well. Association "X" has 4 evaluators go do the evaluations for Association "Y" and vice versa. Then you place the top-12 on the "AA" team and the head coach can choose the final 3 roster spots. Also, having been on the ice, i am going to disagree with those who think that players are hearing the comments being made by parents up in the stands.

What a great idea!! Let's have evaluators from Edina judge tryouts from Wayzata and vice versa. I'm sure that would run smooth as silk. I see zero issues with that at all!! Starting to see why so many enjoy summer AAA over association. As much as I hate checkbook hockey at least with AAA you are not FORCED to take an idiot family. See evaluators scores? Why stop there: Why not allow parents to sit next to the evaluators. Why stop there: Parents come on out and hold your kids hand the entire time, better yet do the drills for them. Why stop there: How bout you evaluate your own kids tryout. Why do we even need levels??? Everyone is a AA player!! No wonder why there are so few good/honest people on boards or volunteer to coach, too many idiots to put up with!

Actually his idea about outside independent evaluators is entirely valid with alot of deep rooted history to it with a proven history of showing it works really well and doing it via "exchange" with other associations also can work as I've seen it done successfully multiple times over across many associations. The only thing idiotic is someone so closed minded to new ideas they rant and rave and try to squash it with nonsense drivel everytime someone brings up something innovative because they cannot grasp the good diea inside of it even if it does need a tweek or two

[MrBoDangles]

I like open. In addition, the evaluators' scores should be made public after the fact as well. You want transparency with this sort of thing and this is a great way to do it. Also, associations should be involved in an evaluator "swap" as well. Association "X" has 4 evaluators go do the evaluations for Association "Y" and vice versa. Then you place the top-12 on the "AA" team and the head coach can choose the final 3 roster spots. Also, having been on the ice, i am going to disagree with those who think that players are hearing the comments being made by parents up in the stands.

What a great idea!! Let's have evaluators from Edina judge tryouts from Wayzata and vice versa. I'm sure that would run smooth as silk. I see zero issues with that at all!! Starting to see why so many enjoy summer AAA over association. As much as I hate checkbook hockey at least with AAA you are not FORCED to take an idiot family. See evaluators scores? Why stop there: Why not allow parents to sit next to the evaluators. Why stop there: Parents come on out and hold your kids hand the entire time, better yet do the drills for them. Why stop there: How bout you evaluate your own kids tryout. Why do we even need levels??? Everyone is a AA player!! No wonder why there are so few good/honest people on boards or volunteer to coach, too many idiots to put up with!

Must be a part of the Forest Lake stronghold?

Good luck there, OG.

[SimplyPut]

same stuff, different season. funny how this goes in a constant circle. one year its open the next group comes in to close it, on and on and on... best of luck to everyone trying to figure this out for your program. just always keep the best interest inthe kids in mind.

[Froggy Richards]

Interesting Thread. In my opinion the only reason to have closed tryouts is to try to avoid the fallout that comes with picking teams. How can a parent argue that their kid should be on the team when they didn't see the tryouts? There is also a lot of emphasis about evaluators on this thread. From my experience, evaluators are primarily there to take the pressure off the people who are actually picking the teams and to make the process look more legit. They can completely ignore the evaluators opinions if they choose, but of course they don't have to tell the parents that. Are there Associations out there where the evaluators actually pick the teams? I have never heard of that so I would be interested if there are. Our Association has closed tryouts. Personally, I don't care that much. Whether they are open or closed probably doesn't change the outcome either way. And there is a lot more to picking a hockey team than a 2-3 hour tryout session. Unless an Association specifically says teams are picked solely on tryouts then they can pick whoever they want. And closed tryouts are a lot easier on the people picking the teams. After all, they are volunteers and probably don't deserve the phone calls and outbursts from parents. If you think it's not 100% fair, well, of course it's not. Nothing in life is, why would Hockey be any different?

[SimplyPut]

why not leave 100% of the team selection up to the coach. that way if someone felt they were mistreated they can only blame 1 person - not the whole program. This may also make parents think twice about shooting their mouths off because maybe they are the reason their young player is not on the team they expected to be on. just a thought.

[luckyEPDad]

Would providing some freedom to switch teams during the season solve most of issues? I don't know if it is like this everywhere, but in Eden Prairie HS you are not a Varsity or a JV player. You may usually practice with Varsity and play in Varsity games, but if your game goes to hell or you are recovering from an injury you might get switched to JV to make room for a promising JV player.

If its really obvious a kid was placed on too high a team you do him no favors by keeping him there. Getting placed on too low a team is not a death sentence because there is the opportunity to earn your way up, which can also provide inspiration for all players. What your are today is not what you will always be. Work hard and you can improve your lot.

[JSR]

Would providing some freedom to switch teams during the season solve most of issues? I don't know if it is like this everywhere, but in Eden Prairie HS you are not a Varsity or a JV player. You may usually practice with Varsity and play in Varsity games, but if your game goes to hell or you are recovering from an injury you might get switched to JV to make room for a promising JV player.

If its really obvious a kid was placed on too high a team you do him no favors by keeping him there. Getting placed on too low a team is not a death sentence because there is the opportunity to earn your way up, which can also provide inspiration for all players. What your are today is not what you will always be. Work hard and you can improve your lot.

We actually have the freedom to do this at the U8 Red, Wite and Blue level..... Red=A, White=B, and Blue=C..... we have actually moved kids up who havee earned it and moved kids who were struggling down..... guess what the parents of the kids who get moved down go ballistic, you think there are hurt feelings and tirades after tryouts, try moving a 7 year old down to his appropriate level midseason, it's a whole new level of bats&^t crazy parent.... funny thing is the kids don't care at that age and the ones we moved down end up being some of the best playerrs on the lower team, they get more puck touches, have more success, get more confidence and come back the next season having made leaps and bounds more improvement and become solid "A" players instead of bubble kids.... think that matters to the crazy parent.... NOPE .... and that is the U8 level, imagine trying that at Pee Wee's.... OMFG don;t even want to think of it

[blindref]

There are problems either way.

I've been to open tryouts, at the bar during closed tryouts and in the stands while coaching to evaluate kids in a pool.

Once I had a chance to watch as a coach, I was able to offer some advice for changes that I think helped.
Things like playing 5/5 instead of 4/4, monitoring what kids are going on the ice and when, keeping resting players occupied in the locker room, getting kids something to eat if you are sequestering them for six hours, delaying making your last few cuts until the team has scrimmages against another team or two and using real referees.

Open tryouts work great with our travel baseball teams, there are very few problems.
Our association feeds three high school teams and the Varsity coaches do the initial evaluations. I feel this is a mistake, you should use someone you does not have an interest where kids land and has no clue who anyone is.

I dont know if you need to post all of the scores, but if someone wants to see their own score to learn what evaluators think they need to improve; you should accommodate them.

[helightsthelamp]

After asking around 30 kids at the rink the last couple of days, this is clearly a parent issue.

I asked Bantam and Squirt age kids - When it comes to tryouts would you rather have it

A) Open
B) Closed
C) Does not make any difference

ALL... YES ALL, each and every kid I asked said it does not make any difference to them.

I figured that would be the majority, but I was shocked that no one cared either way. I kept asking kids in hoping to hear either A or B, but to no avail.

Seems this is a much bigger deal to the parents then it is to the players......

My preference is for open tryouts, the reason I like them is I enjoy watching the kids play. Interesting to see where players are at and how some have improved over the summer. I also think closing them gives the perception of secrecy...