Coach-Player-Parents dynamic

[O-townClown]

I am fully aware that unless your name is Kris Humphries your dad or mom isn't going to be able to have major influence on the decisions of a college coach. For Minnesota HS, I even expect the same.

At the other end of the spectrum, I think it is quite normal that parents have involvement when kids are 5 & 6 and just getting started. Any coach that is put off when some parents have a few questions is working with the wrong age.

In the "Don Lucia speech" video, he says he told a coach, "I would never let my son play for you."

--

Here is a question from the "Are you a Winning Parent?" quiz:

I think it’s important that my child gets used to having coaches yell at him/her to help prepare him/her for life.

Never True

Occasionally True

Mostly True

Always True

--

My question is at what point do you just back the coach and tell your kid to suck it up? What age?

[puckbreath]

I am fully aware that unless your name is Kris Humphries your dad or mom isn't going to be able to have major influence on the decisions of a college coach. For Minnesota HS, I even expect the same.

At the other end of the spectrum, I think it is quite normal that parents have involvement when kids are 5 & 6 and just getting started. Any coach that is put off when some parents have a few questions is working with the wrong age.

In the "Don Lucia speech" video, he says he told a coach, "I would never let my son play for you."

--

Here is a question from the "Are you a Winning Parent?" quiz:

I think it’s important that my child gets used to having coaches yell at him/her to help prepare him/her for life.

Never True

Occasionally True

Mostly True

Always True

--

My question is at what point do you just back the coach and tell your kid to suck it up? What age?

1. If you think some parents don't/can't influence some HS coaches, I have a bridge to sell ya

2. What age does your test question pertain to ? Myself, I have no problem with a HS coach yelling at a kid.
Mine was a few times when he played. No problem.

Younger than that, no.

Physical is off limits at any age.

[O-townClown]

Puck, that's why I'm curious to get thoughts. The quiz does not specify age. My wife and I are baffled by parents' rationalizations of what we consider completely inappropriate behavior by coaches of some very young kids. The whole it's-good-for-them mindset doesn't make sense.

In general, folks are afraid to speak up because they fear some form of retribution. So they delude themselves into justifying.

My coach when I was 16 said, "a good manager can pat you on the back while they kick you in the ass." Considering the age, the offsetting tone, and intent of the message I'm okay with that. I'd even be okay with that approach at 12-14. 9-10? Heck no!

Pat on the head, go get some ice cream, "we'll work on some things Tuesday at practice," and on your way.

[puckbreath]

Puck, that's why I'm curious to get thoughts. The quiz does not specify age. My wife and I are baffled by parents' rationalizations of what we consider completely inappropriate behavior by coaches of some very young kids. The whole it's-good-for-them mindset doesn't make sense.

In general, folks are afraid to speak up because they fear some form of retribution. So they delude themselves into justifying.

My coach when I was 16 said, "a good manager can pat you on the back while they kick you in the ass." Considering the age, the offsetting tone, and intent of the message I'm okay with that. I'd even be okay with that approach at 12-14. 9-10? Heck no!

Pat on the head, go get some ice cream, "we'll work on some things Tuesday at practice," and on your way.

Sad state of affairs, this. Feel sorry for the kids involved, and inexcusable on the parents end.
For youth hockey of all things.

Basically putting hockey/coach before their own kid.

Sooner or later, they'll find out, most likely the hard way, that it should have been the other way around.

Hockey comes and goes. Your kid will *always* be your kid, hockey or not, good at it or not.

[SECoach]

I'm in the yelling is good, if it's meant to excite and motivate the skater. I'll go with if yelling is being loud because I'm on an ice sheet, it's ok. Yelling AT a kid is just plain wrong. What are you yelling? Red faced, grabbing a face mask, ego yelling is never, never, ok. These are children that are playing a game and I believe that the coaches that feel they need to "yell" are more worried about themselves than the kids they are coaching. I'm trying to post less, but you may see me inside this one a lot.

Who the hell do you think you are to yell at a kid that is there to have some fun and play a game? Get over it and let yourself be a good coach or a bad one. Get over yourself!

[boomerang]

I think that once kids hit squirts, they are fully capable of paying attention to the coaches and should be expected to do so. They're 8-10 years old, and they're on the ice for an hour. It's really not too much to ask. Screwing around when the coach is explaining something? I am okay with the coach making them skate a lap or making the offenders sit out a bit, etc. But I also think they should be expected to make mistakes in the game or when doing drills. Correction is expected--that's the point, right? They are learning the game of hockey. Yelling at them for mistakes is not okay.

I don't think yelling in itself is bad--the kids need to be able to hear you, but if you're a good coach, it will be positive and motivating or instructional. It won't be personal or critical.

[JSR]

I think that once kids hit squirts, they are fully capable of paying attention to the coaches and should be expected to do so. They're 8-10 years old, and they're on the ice for an hour. It's really not too much to ask. Screwing around when the coach is explaining something? I am okay with the coach making them skate a lap or making the offenders sit out a bit, etc. But I also think they should be expected to make mistakes in the game or when doing drills. Correction is expected--that's the point, right? They are learning the game of hockey. Yelling at them for mistakes is not okay.

I don't think yelling in itself is bad--the kids need to be able to hear you, but if you're a good coach, it will be positive and motivating or instructional. It won't be personal or critical.

The word "yelling" can be misconstrued.... by my very nature I am a very loud person and when we are on the bench during a game I do "yell" instructional things to the kids. So I think I am similar in that are you conveying an instructional or positive message with a loud yelling type voice, or are you just screaming empty lanuage at teh kids. To me coaches who scream things like "come on", or "what were you thinking", or "get your head in the game" are coaches who frankly are not educated enough in the game themselves to convey the proper message. Yelling empty language is frankly useless at any age, yelling with instruction and/or a positive message is ok at virtually any age in my book. Hope that makes sense.... I also think it's perfectly fine to be "stern" and instill high expectations with kids at any age provided you are not belittling them.

[SCBlueLiner]

I think that once kids hit squirts, they are fully capable of paying attention to the coaches and should be expected to do so. They're 8-10 years old, and they're on the ice for an hour. It's really not too much to ask. Screwing around when the coach is explaining something? I am okay with the coach making them skate a lap or making the offenders sit out a bit, etc. But I also think they should be expected to make mistakes in the game or when doing drills. Correction is expected--that's the point, right? They are learning the game of hockey. Yelling at them for mistakes is not okay.

I don't think yelling in itself is bad--the kids need to be able to hear you, but if you're a good coach, it will be positive and motivating or instructional. It won't be personal or critical.

So last night I was coaching a Pee Wee practice. By the end of the practice my voice was gone and I was out fo breath. Yelling? Well, I had to enunciate loud enough so the kids I could hear me over the rest of the commotion from the other three stations on the ice. I swear ice rinks have horrible accoustics, the sound just gets lost.

Did I yell at the kids? Yes, some of the groups I had were more interested in screwing around than listening to any description of what we were trying to do or my instruction. Yes, I yelled at them for not paying attention, told them they were acting like Mites and that maybe they should have shown up earlier because that is when Mite practice was. These kids are 12, they should know better. Yelling at them because they made a mistake during the drill when I could see they were truly trying? No. Instruction and encouragement.

So I guess it all depends on the situation. Is it a coach that only has one gear and that gear is red-faced yelling? Won't work, the kids will eventually tune him out. Situational yelling to get a point across or to get their attention? Absolutely, starting at Squirts. By that age they should be old enough to give the coach respect and not screw around in practice. Yelling at and personally berating a player? Tricky question. Sometimes you need to tear a kid down so you can build him back up. Some kids are mature enough to handle this as young as Bantams. They should definitely be able to handle it in High School. By Juniors or College, if the player can't handle it then they won't make it at that level, or most likely never got there to begin with.

[boomerang]

Yep! That is exactly what I'm talking about, guys. In those situations, it's perfectly acceptable, in my view. And if parents are getting on you for that, maybe their special snowflake should find some other activity to participate in, like basketweaving or video games.

Parents yelling crap like "get your head in the game!" piss me off, too. You shouldn't be yelling instructions at your kid, or any kid on the ice. First of all, if they can even hear you, why are you trying to undermine the coach? If you yell stuff like that, you are basically sending the message to your child that it is okay for them to do whatever they want. Keep it positive.

[puckbreath]

Yelling to be heard, etc. is one thing. Almost a requirement to do so in a rink anyway.

My comments were about the yelling along the lines of "You screwed up on that play", etc., to a kid.


And I'll stick to what I said with that in mind.

Good comments folks.

[O-townClown]

Thanks for the thoughts. Your comments match my view. Yelling at a pre-teen isn't acceptable to you. (Yelling having a negative connotation and not meaning "raising your voice to be heard because it is loud around you" because the kid is 75 feet away in an ice rink.)

If a college-age player said their coach got upset with them and said a few cross words it wouldn't shock me.

When that's the feedback from a Squirt or Pee Wee I do have a problem with it.

The baffling part is how parents condone it and convince themselves it is somehow good for their kid.

[5thgraders]

when he is old enough to drink the kool aid shhhhhhh

[black sheep]

good coaches will use all the tools they have...yelling being one of them...the trick is using them at the right time.

i know very good coaches who are yellers and i know very good coaches who are almost mutes...but they are both fair and consistant in discipline.

parents are mostly umcomfortable by a personality different than theirs.

parents are also way more involved now. sometimes yelling bothers the parents more than the players.

parents sometimes need to ask questions before passing judgement.

im not a fan of vocally individualizing a player...but sometimes it is apporpriate.

[stromboli]

good coaches will use all the tools they have...yelling being one of them...the trick is using them at the right time.

i know very good coaches who are yellers and i know very good coaches who are almost mutes...but they are both fair and consistant in discipline.

parents are mostly umcomfortable by a personality different than theirs.

parents are also way more involved now. sometimes yelling bothers the parents more than the players.

parents sometimes need to ask questions before passing judgement.

im not a fan of vocally individualizing a player...but sometimes it is apporpriate.

Agree with Sheep on all points.

I bolded the pieces above that hit me as one of my pet peeves and seems to come up almost every year regardless of the type of team it is (association, AAA, MM, etc.). The issue: when a kid is disciplined by a coach and the parents have a tough time with it -- not because their kid didn't deserve to be set straight -- but because the parents hobble their kids by sheltering them from deserved criticism.

Sometimes a coach can be out of line, or can be having a bad day due to other things and it spills over. Won't argue that at all.

However, even more often, it seems to me that there are kids that aren't held accountable by their parents for their behavior, and flinch (or flat out go off the handle) when a coach does for negative behavior that affects the team. Parents simply don't have as much "control" over coaches as they do, say, over teachers. And frankly, some parents think their little Johny or Suzie does no wrong and enable poor behavior, sportmanship, etc. by telling their kids that it was someone else's fault. The targets become the coaches and teammates, which only reinforces little Johny's or Suzie's sense of entitlement to be a little $#!+.

Hockey to me is more than just a game. It's one of the last few places where kids receive some real world feedback on things like being held to a standard, being a good teammate, and being accountable for their actions.

Kudos to all of the coaches who try to do their best at developing positive traits and habits in their kids. Keep up the good work in what is too often an overly PC, self-indulgent, look-at-me society.

(Disclaimer: Coaches with behavioral issues need to be corrected, monitored, and or weeded out, but that should go without saying.)

[silentbutdeadly3139]

good coaches will use all the tools they have...yelling being one of them...the trick is using them at the right time.

i know very good coaches who are yellers and i know very good coaches who are almost mutes...but they are both fair and consistant in discipline.

parents are mostly umcomfortable by a personality different than theirs.

parents are also way more involved now. sometimes yelling bothers the parents more than the players.

parents sometimes need to ask questions before passing judgement.

im not a fan of vocally individualizing a player...but sometimes it is apporpriate.

Agree with Sheep on all points.

I bolded the pieces above that hit me as one of my pet peeves and seems to come up almost every year regardless of the type of team it is (association, AAA, MM, etc.). The issue: when a kid is disciplined by a coach and the parents have a tough time with it -- not because their kid didn't deserve to be set straight -- but because the parents hobble their kids by sheltering them from deserved criticism.

Sometimes a coach can be out of line, or can be having a bad day due to other things and it spills over. Won't argue that at all.

However, even more often, it seems to me that there are kids that aren't held accountable by their parents for their behavior, and flinch (or flat out go off the handle) when a coach does for negative behavior that affects the team. Parents simply don't have as much "control" over coaches as they do, say, over teachers. And frankly, some parents think their little Johny or Suzie does no wrong and enable poor behavior, sportmanship, etc. by telling their kids that it was someone else's fault. The targets become the coaches and teammates, which only reinforces little Johny's or Suzie's sense of entitlement to be a little $#!+.

Hockey to me is more than just a game. It's one of the last few places where kids receive some real world feedback on things like being held to a standard, being a good teammate, and being accountable for their actions.

Kudos to all of the coaches who try to do their best at developing positive traits and habits in their kids. Keep up the good work in what is too often an overly PC, self-indulgent, look-at-me society.

(Disclaimer: Coaches with behavioral issues need to be corrected, monitored, and or weeded out, but that should go without saying.)

I am not at all PC and have no problem with coaches occasionally "yelling" when necessary, after repeated tries with non-"yelling" instruction. And by yelling I mean raising voice without berating.

It goes without saying but I think this thread is about the abusive yelling. There are coaches that aren't being corrected, monitored or weeded out because of fear of reprisal or as someone said that they justify it for a variety of reasons. I have seen youth coaches berate kids in ways we wouldn't let anyone else get away with and we see them continue coaching. At what point do we say enough ?

And yes, Kudos and thanks to the vast majority of coaches who do a great job.

P.S. "Kudos to all of the coaches who try to do their best at developing positive traits and habits in their kids. " is the yelling a trait you and a habit you want your kids taught ? I like coaches like Coach K, Bilicheck, Dungy etc. vs. the Bobby Knights, they seem like they are in control. "yellers" don't.

[stromboli]

good coaches will use all the tools they have...yelling being one of them...the trick is using them at the right time.

i know very good coaches who are yellers and i know very good coaches who are almost mutes...but they are both fair and consistant in discipline.

parents are mostly umcomfortable by a personality different than theirs.

parents are also way more involved now. sometimes yelling bothers the parents more than the players.

parents sometimes need to ask questions before passing judgement.

im not a fan of vocally individualizing a player...but sometimes it is apporpriate.

Agree with Sheep on all points.

I bolded the pieces above that hit me as one of my pet peeves and seems to come up almost every year regardless of the type of team it is (association, AAA, MM, etc.). The issue: when a kid is disciplined by a coach and the parents have a tough time with it -- not because their kid didn't deserve to be set straight -- but because the parents hobble their kids by sheltering them from deserved criticism.

Sometimes a coach can be out of line, or can be having a bad day due to other things and it spills over. Won't argue that at all.

However, even more often, it seems to me that there are kids that aren't held accountable by their parents for their behavior, and flinch (or flat out go off the handle) when a coach does for negative behavior that affects the team. Parents simply don't have as much "control" over coaches as they do, say, over teachers. And frankly, some parents think their little Johny or Suzie does no wrong and enable poor behavior, sportmanship, etc. by telling their kids that it was someone else's fault. The targets become the coaches and teammates, which only reinforces little Johny's or Suzie's sense of entitlement to be a little $#!+.

Hockey to me is more than just a game. It's one of the last few places where kids receive some real world feedback on things like being held to a standard, being a good teammate, and being accountable for their actions.

Kudos to all of the coaches who try to do their best at developing positive traits and habits in their kids. Keep up the good work in what is too often an overly PC, self-indulgent, look-at-me society.

(Disclaimer: Coaches with behavioral issues need to be corrected, monitored, and or weeded out, but that should go without saying.)

I am not at all PC and have no problem with coaches occasionally "yelling" when necessary, after repeated tries with non-"yelling" instruction. And by yelling I mean raising voice without berating.

It goes without saying but I think this thread is about the abusive yelling. There are coaches that aren't being corrected, monitored or weeded out because of fear of reprisal or as someone said that they justify it for a variety of reasons. I have seen youth coaches berate kids in ways we wouldn't let anyone else get away with and we see them continue coaching. At what point do we say enough ?

And yes, Kudos and thanks to the vast majority of coaches who do a great job.

P.S. "Kudos to all of the coaches who try to do their best at developing positive traits and habits in their kids. " is the yelling a trait you and a habit you want your kids taught ? I like coaches like Coach K, Bilicheck, Dungy etc. vs. the Bobby Knights, they seem like they are in control. "yellers" don't.

Let's stick with your coaches. I like the three you mentioned first, and think Bobby Knight is a good example of an extreme yeller who also had some behavioral issues. Even though Knight was dealing with "adults," albeit young adults, his behavior didn't go without criticism, and eventually impacted his public image and career. No way I'd be okay with his style with youth players.

However, if you think Coach K or Bilicheck never yelled at a player, you're nuts.

In my opinion, it's about context, content, and age of the player. There are times when yelling is okay in my book if a kid is being a problem as one option to see if that get's their attention and corrects the issue. It's not the first option I'd personally use, or have used.

Yelling as as a "positive" trait or habit? I never implied that it was.
Note I was talking about using it to deal with bad behavior, not screwing up a play or doing a drill wrong and being a regular part of a coach's set of coaching tools.

Although the thread is about abusive yelling, isn't that the point? Some parents believe anyone yelling at their kid at any time for any reason is abusive. Period.

I don't subscribe to that mindset. Maybe you do, maybe you don't.

Here's the crux of it. If my kid is in an abusive environment it's my job as a parent to either change that environment, or remove them from it. No other option for me and mine, and can't change that situation for others who won't act.

If, on the other hand, it's more about communication style, and not about content, then I may try to (a) have a conversation with the coach about how my kid is reacting to their style, (b) have a conversation with my kid about listening to the conent of the message and do their best to filter out how it was communicated (i.e., focus on the message, not the delivery, and now only that my kids are old enough to do that), or (c) decide that neither (a) nor (b) will work and treat it as though it is an abusive environment.

My original point, though, was aimed at parents that enable bad behavior. Didn't think I needed a separate thread for that since it was broached indirectly...

[JSR]

good coaches will use all the tools they have...yelling being one of them...the trick is using them at the right time.

i know very good coaches who are yellers and i know very good coaches who are almost mutes...but they are both fair and consistant in discipline.

parents are mostly umcomfortable by a personality different than theirs.

parents are also way more involved now. sometimes yelling bothers the parents more than the players.

parents sometimes need to ask questions before passing judgement.

im not a fan of vocally individualizing a player...but sometimes it is apporpriate.

Agree with Sheep on all points.

I bolded the pieces above that hit me as one of my pet peeves and seems to come up almost every year regardless of the type of team it is (association, AAA, MM, etc.). The issue: when a kid is disciplined by a coach and the parents have a tough time with it -- not because their kid didn't deserve to be set straight -- but because the parents hobble their kids by sheltering them from deserved criticism.

Sometimes a coach can be out of line, or can be having a bad day due to other things and it spills over. Won't argue that at all.

However, even more often, it seems to me that there are kids that aren't held accountable by their parents for their behavior, and flinch (or flat out go off the handle) when a coach does for negative behavior that affects the team. Parents simply don't have as much "control" over coaches as they do, say, over teachers. And frankly, some parents think their little Johny or Suzie does no wrong and enable poor behavior, sportmanship, etc. by telling their kids that it was someone else's fault. The targets become the coaches and teammates, which only reinforces little Johny's or Suzie's sense of entitlement to be a little $#!+.

Hockey to me is more than just a game. It's one of the last few places where kids receive some real world feedback on things like being held to a standard, being a good teammate, and being accountable for their actions.

Kudos to all of the coaches who try to do their best at developing positive traits and habits in their kids. Keep up the good work in what is too often an overly PC, self-indulgent, look-at-me society.

(Disclaimer: Coaches with behavioral issues need to be corrected, monitored, and or weeded out, but that should go without saying.)

I am not at all PC and have no problem with coaches occasionally "yelling" when necessary, after repeated tries with non-"yelling" instruction. And by yelling I mean raising voice without berating.

It goes without saying but I think this thread is about the abusive yelling. There are coaches that aren't being corrected, monitored or weeded out because of fear of reprisal or as someone said that they justify it for a variety of reasons. I have seen youth coaches berate kids in ways we wouldn't let anyone else get away with and we see them continue coaching. At what point do we say enough ?

And yes, Kudos and thanks to the vast majority of coaches who do a great job.

P.S. "Kudos to all of the coaches who try to do their best at developing positive traits and habits in their kids. " is the yelling a trait you and a habit you want your kids taught ? I like coaches like Coach K, Bilicheck, Dungy etc. vs. the Bobby Knights, they seem like they are in control. "yellers" don't.

I do find it ironic in this context that you like Coach K but not Bobby Knight, only because Coach K gives Bobby Knight a TON of credit for being his "mentor", and credits him hugely with the "person and coach he became....."

[silentbutdeadly3139]

However, if you think Coach K or Bilicheck never yelled at a player, you're nuts.
...
Although the thread is about abusive yelling, isn't that the point? Some parents believe anyone yelling at their kid at any time for any reason is abusive. Period.

I don't subscribe to that mindset. Maybe you do, maybe you don't.
....

Read again, I didn't say they weren't "yellers" and I didn't say yelling was unacceptable. I agree with you that its about context, content and the age of a player. My examples were an attempt to show that you there are people who can "yell" at players and the message, context and age is acceptable and there are those like Knight who cross the line.

My kids have had "yellers" and part of my job as a parent is teach them how to handle it. Which I tell them to listen to the message and not necessarily how it is delivered. If it becomes abusive, I agree, it's up to me to change the environment but question remains how come others wont act?

I do find it ironic in this context that you like Coach K but not Bobby Knight, only because Coach K gives Bobby Knight a TON of credit for being his "mentor", and credits him hugely with the "person and coach he became....."

Not ironic but intended. You can use good AND bad examples such as Knights behavior to shape and form who you are. Coach K doesn't cross the line Knight crossed many times, maybe he learned that from seeing Bobby's bad examples.

[JSR]

However, if you think Coach K or Bilicheck never yelled at a player, you're nuts.
...
Although the thread is about abusive yelling, isn't that the point? Some parents believe anyone yelling at their kid at any time for any reason is abusive. Period.

I don't subscribe to that mindset. Maybe you do, maybe you don't.
....

Read again, I didn't say they weren't "yellers" and I didn't say yelling was unacceptable. I agree with you that its about context, content and the age of a player. My examples were an attempt to show that you there are people who can "yell" at players and the message, context and age is acceptable and there are those like Knight who cross the line.

My kids have had "yellers" and part of my job as a parent is teach them how to handle it. Which I tell them to listen to the message and not necessarily how it is delivered. If it becomes abusive, I agree, it's up to me to change the environment but question remains how come others wont act?

I do find it ironic in this context that you like Coach K but not Bobby Knight, only because Coach K gives Bobby Knight a TON of credit for being his "mentor", and credits him hugely with the "person and coach he became....."

Not ironic but intended. You can use good AND bad examples such as Knights behavior to shape and form who you are. Coach K doesn't cross the line Knight crossed many times, maybe he learned that from seeing Bobby's bad examples.

I guess my point being that I do think the media overexcagerrated some of what Bobby Knight did, and I also think our society became a bit more sensitive and overly PC over time, you say Bobby Knight crossed the line many times, honestly I can only really think of two times he ever "crosed the line", I think he was ourageous at times and flirted with the line but I don't think he crossed it very many times at all..... You ask why others won't act, well some don't act and should but maybe others don't act because their line isn't the same as yours....

[jg2112]

However, if you think Coach K or Bilicheck never yelled at a player, you're nuts.
...
Although the thread is about abusive yelling, isn't that the point? Some parents believe anyone yelling at their kid at any time for any reason is abusive. Period.

I don't subscribe to that mindset. Maybe you do, maybe you don't.
....

Read again, I didn't say they weren't "yellers" and I didn't say yelling was unacceptable. I agree with you that its about context, content and the age of a player. My examples were an attempt to show that you there are people who can "yell" at players and the message, context and age is acceptable and there are those like Knight who cross the line.

My kids have had "yellers" and part of my job as a parent is teach them how to handle it. Which I tell them to listen to the message and not necessarily how it is delivered. If it becomes abusive, I agree, it's up to me to change the environment but question remains how come others wont act?

I do find it ironic in this context that you like Coach K but not Bobby Knight, only because Coach K gives Bobby Knight a TON of credit for being his "mentor", and credits him hugely with the "person and coach he became....."

Not ironic but intended. You can use good AND bad examples such as Knights behavior to shape and form who you are. Coach K doesn't cross the line Knight crossed many times, maybe he learned that from seeing Bobby's bad examples.

I guess my point being that I do think the media overexcagerrated some of what Bobby Knight did, and I also think our society became a bit more sensitive and overly PC over time, you say Bobby Knight crossed the line many times, honestly I can only really think of two times he ever "crosed the line", I think he was ourageous at times and flirted with the line but I don't think he crossed it very many times at all..... You ask why others won't act, well some don't act and should but maybe others don't act because their line isn't the same as yours....

Throwing a chair across a basketball court?
Pretending to whip one of his African American players?
Choking a player?
Joking about rape on national TV?
Repeated physical and verbal assaults?

And these are just the known incidents.

Had Knight not won a title in 1976, he'd have been thrown out of the game. He's a jerk of the highest order and no example of anything except how a person should not act.

[Section 8 guy]

I always find Bobby Knight discussions interesting. Clearly he crossed the line at times and I'm not even going to begin to defend his actions in those cases.

That said, I saw Bobby Knight coach in person 3 times and I also saw Gene Keady from Purdue (same era as Knight) coach in person 3 times. Their behavior during games wasn't even comparable.....not even close. Keady was infinitely worse than Knight (yelled more, threw things, shoved people.....you name it) and it wasn't even close. Knight was fairly calm in the three games I saw and Keady acted like a monster. Yet, you never heard anything in the press about Keady's behavior.

Just interesting is all.

[JSR]

I always find Bobby Knight discussions interesting. Clearly he crossed the line at times and I'm not even going to begin to defend his actions in those cases.

That said, I saw Bobby Knight coach in person 3 times and I also saw Gene Keady from Purdue (same era as Knight) coach in person 3 times. Their behavior during games wasn't even comparable.....not even close. Keady was infinitely worse than Knight (yelled more, threw things, shoved people.....you name it) and it wasn't even close. Knight was fairly calm in the three games I saw and Keady acted like a monster. Yet, you never heard anything in the press about Keady's behavior.

Just interesting is all.

Agree, he did cross the line a couple times and those times cannot be defended but look at those "incidents" that jg2112 lists above and they are not entirely accurate and some are sensationalized big time. I was old enough to remember all of these but if you aren't read the actual history and you'll see some of them are the media making a big deal out of nothing and not that two wrongs make a right but there were alot of coaches way more out of control than Knight back then, he was just more successful and hence under a bigger microscope

[Section 8 guy]

+1 JSR

[barry_mcconnell]

Can we stop talking about basketball soon?