Classic Suburban ousts St. Thomas

[EliteHockeyMind]

While you'd have to be ignoring what's actually happened to think they'd been anywhere close to dominant in football recently

52-4 in the last 8 seasons in the CSC is pretty dominant. We're talking about the CSC/Metro East, not about how they've done in State playoffs.

It would be interesting to see what SSP's record is during this same time period. CSC is just flat out not a good football conference. Only SSP, Maht and STA have been good the last 5-10 years from this conference, and somehow Sibley won this year. Everyother team in this conference is absoulte garbage at football, this is why the recored is so skewed.

[Sparlimb]

The deal is alot of folks don't want these teams around. Now I've already said"I would love to see them {and Hill} play in the SEC. Just to see game in and game out how they hold up. Football and Hockey.

HM was in a conference with the mega schools (TC Suburban) for 10+ years starting the late 80's through the late 90's. They did just fine in hockey winning the conference title many times and one state title during that time (and this was the height of the WBL program under Bonin).

HM was less successful in football as a school of 650+ kids doesn't do well against schools of 3000+ like Blaine and Anoka. The Classic Suburban has been a much better conference for them in all other sports.

[stpaul]

It would be interesting to see what SSP's record is during this same time period.

SSP's success is only in the past 4 years. They were 25-3 in the conference from 2010-2013. 2 of the 3 losses are to STA. They didn't play each other in the regular season in 2010 and 2011. In the 4 years before that SSP was 8-22 in the conference, so over 8 years they are 33-25 compared to STA's 52-4. Head to head including playoffs they are 1-9 vs. STA. Most are blowout losses. The only win was in OT in the 2011 playoffs.

[BP]

It would be interesting to see what SSP's record is during this same time period.

SSP's success is only in the past 4 years. They were 25-3 in the conference from 2010-2013. 2 of the 3 losses are to STA. They didn't play each other in the regular season in 2010 and 2011. In the 4 years before that SSP was 8-22 in the conference, so over 8 years they are 33-25 compared to STA's 52-4. Head to head including playoffs they are 1-9 vs. STA. Most are blowout losses. The only win was in OT in the 2011 playoffs.

Here's the deal.....who cares about regular season!!!!!!!!!!! Get hot for 2 weeks in the playoffs. STA and HM are now AA, and its about sections. Simley, what is youir excuse now when you lose by 11 in the play-in game?

[HShockeywatcher]

I'm still curious if anyone can shed any light on honest issues they have with St Thomas that would justify disbanding a conference because of them. Almost all of the schools in the conference dominate at least one sport every year. And while Richfield isn't dominant in anything I know of they have won a conference title this year already and are leaving the conference anyway.

While you'd have to be ignoring what's actually happened to think they'd been anywhere close to dominant in football recently

52-4 in the last 8 seasons in the CSC is pretty dominant. We're talking about the CSC/Metro East, not about how they've done in State playoffs.

Yeah, it's "pretty dominant if you just look at their record. In that same time frame, they have won the conference title outright once. They're good, no one is debating that, but dominant, no.

And if we can't agree with a definition of dominant, it's still only one sport.

[Pioneerprideguy]

I can't help but laugh at the comments made by Mr. Short, Simley's AD. So you are gonna look at your options and if a conference wants to talk you'll listen, huh? Just exactly what quality programs will you be bringing to the table (outside of wrestling)? Your programs reflect their leadership...subpar!

The MSHSL has requirements to place a school in a conference, and STA met those requirements. As a former Pioneer, I am glad STA remained in the conference. I would lose credibility if I opposed it considering all the success HM has had. They set a bar for teams to shoot for. With regards to football, they force programs to get better or get rolled. Henry Sibley didn't whine when they got beat by STA during the regular season, they got better and destroyed STA in sections. That's how it's done Mr. Short!

[BP]

I can't help but laugh at the comments made by Mr. Short, Simley's AD. So you are gonna look at your options and if a conference wants to talk you'll listen, huh? Just exactly what quality programs will you be bringing to the table (outside of wrestling)? Your programs reflect their leadership...subpar!

The MSHSL has requirements to place a school in a conference, and STA met those requirements. As a former Pioneer, I am glad STA remained in the conference. I would lose credibility if I opposed it considering all the success HM has had. They set a bar for teams to shoot for. With regards to football, they force programs to get better or get rolled. Henry Sibley didn't whine when they got beat by STA during the regular season, they got better and destroyed STA in sections. That's how it's done Mr. Short!

Couldn't agree more and led me to think.....Isn't Simley wrestling a top 3 team EVERY year in AA Wrestling (out of the 3 classes). You don't hear Hill or STA complaining that they should move up when they win state almost every year.......Can't have it both ways Mr. Short, sorry to say.

[HShockeywatcher]

I can't help but laugh at the comments made by Mr. Short, Simley's AD. So you are gonna look at your options and if a conference wants to talk you'll listen, huh? Just exactly what quality programs will you be bringing to the table (outside of wrestling)? Your programs reflect their leadership...subpar!

The MSHSL has requirements to place a school in a conference, and STA met those requirements. As a former Pioneer, I am glad STA remained in the conference. I would lose credibility if I opposed it considering all the success HM has had. They set a bar for teams to shoot for. With regards to football, they force programs to get better or get rolled. Henry Sibley didn't whine when they got beat by STA during the regular season, they got better and destroyed STA in sections. That's how it's done Mr. Short!

Couldn't agree more and led me to think.....Isn't Simley wrestling a top 3 team EVERY year in AA Wrestling (out of the 3 classes). You don't hear Hill or STA complaining that they should move up when they win state almost every year.......Can't have it both ways Mr. Short, sorry to say.

That loss to Sibley sucked real bad this year, but that's how it goes. The better team that night won. Really not sure why they would want us out after that...

They are basically a top 2 team in the state and don't opt up because they'd lose to AV.

As I was looking up the records that stpaul pointed out about the "last 8 seasons" it was interesting to learn that 5 years ago Simley shared the conference title with St Thomas and 6 years ago they won the conference title outright, going 1-1 against St Thomas those two years.

[stpaul]

Fact is STA stood at a meeting and argued that they best belong in a conference where they have gone 52-4 in football and 105-13-3 (100-2-3 if we don't include their 5-11 vs. Hill-Murray) in hockey the past 8 years. They could have argued for placement in the SEC or SSC where they would obviously face better competition.

By contrast their old brothers at Cretin-DH play all sports in the SEC and opt up to the highest levels possible for state playoffs in all sports. CDH is larger than STA but not by much (640 boys at CDH compared to 550 at STA).

[HShockeywatcher]

Fact is STA stood at a meeting and argued that they best belong in a conference where they have gone 52-4 in football and 105-13-3 (100-2-3 if we don't include their 5-11 vs. Hill-Murray) in hockey the past 8 years. They could have argued for placement in the SEC or SSC where they would obviously face better competition.

By contrast their old brothers at Cretin-DH play all sports in the SEC and opt up to the highest levels possible for state playoffs in all sports. CDH is larger than STA but not by much (640 boys at CDH compared to 550 at STA).

If they were moving for just football, I highly doubt they would not have made that claim. Despite you wanting to make it about this sport or that sport, not only is it about all sports, but the conference you are in is not only about competition. There are many other factors involved in a "best fit."
I think it's funny that in the "period of dominance" you mention Simley has as many outright conference championships in football as St Thomas.

If you only consider one sport, why shouldn't Hill be booted? Or Simley?
We both know the answer to that question.

[DubCHAGuy]

Fact is STA stood at a meeting and argued that they best belong in a conference where they have gone 52-4 in football and 105-13-3 (100-2-3 if we don't include their 5-11 vs. Hill-Murray) in hockey the past 8 years. They could have argued for placement in the SEC or SSC where they would obviously face better competition.

By contrast their old brothers at Cretin-DH play all sports in the SEC and opt up to the highest levels possible for state playoffs in all sports. CDH is larger than STA but not by much (640 boys at CDH compared to 550 at STA).

If they were moving for just football, I highly doubt they would not have made that claim. Despite you wanting to make it about this sport or that sport, not only is it about all sports, but the conference you are in is not only about competition. There are many other factors involved in a "best fit."
I think it's funny that in the "period of dominance" you mention Simley has as many outright conference championships in football as St Thomas.

If you only consider one sport, why shouldn't Hill be booted? Or Simley?
We both know the answer to that question.

Yes, but those other factors all point to them NOT fitting in the CSC.
Also, There is a big difference in a school like Simley having one really good class of athletes that come through and win the conference as seniors and STA reloading with kids from all over the metro and going 7-1/8-0 every single year.

Athletically however, I actually agree with HSHW. I don't see the problem keeping them. Like HSHW is getting at, sure they are pretty good in most sports, but in each sport there is at least 1 or 2 teams that are just as good or better.
Hockey- Hill
Football- seems to rotate but currently SSP & Mahto. Possibly Tartan in the near future.
Soccer- NSP and usually 2 or 3 others
Basketball- Tartan and usually 2 or 3 others.
Baseball/Wrestling/Track- STA isn't very good.

Individual sports like swimming I would argue it really doesn't matter what conference they're in, since athletes compete more against themselves until the end of the season.

IMO the MSHSL needs to look at hockey-only conferences. The "best fit" for all sports generally doesn't apply to hockey. Competitively, we are down to private schools, outer ring suburbs, and the bigger schools of the North.

[Marty]

Didn't Mahtomedi knock STA off at sections two years in a row when Marshal was playing there ? Probably delayed STAs move to AA by a year or two.

I would be more concerned about what Tier STA places each team into at Play-off time than what conference they play in. Most coaches should relish playing a few games against top tier talent unless their team is so slow that in becomes a dangerous situation for them (doubt it, but who knows).

[HShockeywatcher]

Fact is STA stood at a meeting and argued that they best belong in a conference where they have gone 52-4 in football and 105-13-3 (100-2-3 if we don't include their 5-11 vs. Hill-Murray) in hockey the past 8 years. They could have argued for placement in the SEC or SSC where they would obviously face better competition.

By contrast their old brothers at Cretin-DH play all sports in the SEC and opt up to the highest levels possible for state playoffs in all sports. CDH is larger than STA but not by much (640 boys at CDH compared to 550 at STA).

If they were moving for just football, I highly doubt they would not have made that claim. Despite you wanting to make it about this sport or that sport, not only is it about all sports, but the conference you are in is not only about competition. There are many other factors involved in a "best fit."
I think it's funny that in the "period of dominance" you mention Simley has as many outright conference championships in football as St Thomas.

If you only consider one sport, why shouldn't Hill be booted? Or Simley?
We both know the answer to that question.

Yes, but those other factors all point to them NOT fitting in the CSC.
Also, There is a big difference in a school like Simley having one really good class of athletes that come through and win the conference as seniors and STA reloading with kids from all over the metro and going 7-1/8-0 every single year.

Athletically however, I actually agree with HSHW. I don't see the problem keeping them. Like HSHW is getting at, sure they are pretty good in most sports, but in each sport there is at least 1 or 2 teams that are just as good or better.
Hockey- Hill
Football- seems to rotate but currently SSP & Mahto. Possibly Tartan in the near future.
Soccer- NSP and usually 2 or 3 others
Basketball- Tartan and usually 2 or 3 others.
Baseball/Wrestling/Track- STA isn't very good.

Individual sports like swimming I would argue it really doesn't matter what conference they're in, since athletes compete more against themselves until the end of the season.

IMO the MSHSL needs to look at hockey-only conferences. The "best fit" for all sports generally doesn't apply to hockey. Competitively, we are down to private schools, outer ring suburbs, and the bigger schools of the North.

What "other factors" are you referring to? The big ones that I can come up with are location, competitiveness and conference size. Despite all the things people say with only a few rare exceptions, these are the things that directors look at.

Ultimately, there are only three currently conferences that make sense, the CSC, the SSC and the SEC.

SSC
-STA is relatively close to all the schools or at least no farther than anywhere they currently travel.
-STA would compete in many sports but be near the bottom of many as well because of sheer numbers.
-The conference has 10 teams as it is. Scheduling for hockey and basketball leaves few non-conference games and in football you play less of the conference teams now than in the CSC. Adding an 11th team would make both of those even worse.

SEC
-While traveling to Mahtomedi isn't the most fun, Forest Lake makes even less sense. Not sure why Cretin does it, but this is a great reason not to join.
-They be similarly competitive here compared to the SSC, maybe even more so.
-Ditto.

CSC
-Only a couple far opponents, with many being not a far drive.
-In most years there are teams in every school that compete for conference titles in at least one sport.
-9 teams is better than 11.

While the schedule considerations wouldn't have been fun, I wouldn't have complained if the SSC accepted them, but the conference has no reason to want them nor does the MSHSL have any reason to put them there. Ultimately, while they may be pretty good in a sport or two now, the CSC is a good fit for them for many reasons. Would you possibly get something different if all conferences were reevaluated?

Personally, I'd prefer to see conference gone and teams mandated to play section opponents home/away. It would solve a lot and there are very few negatives to that.