Class A Rankings 2-2-14

[GopherPuck15]

This may be the best Class A tournament in quite some time; while it's fun to argue who is the best right now, it really is going to become irrelevant because virtually all 8 teams, maybe with the exception of Luverne, will have a chance to win it; and who knows, maybe even an average Luverne team can do it. Anything can happen come playoff time.

[HShockeywatcher]

And in your list of games above how do you have 2 better games for Warroad. Besides Denfeld (and that WIN was 16 games ago) where is the other.

I think most would consider a 5-0 shut out "better" than a 7-2 win. I may be alone on this, but I doubt it.
Either way, their head to head games don't amount to much. If either of them had lost 1 or 2 less of their AA games, there'd be no discussion here.

You say the loss to Bemidji was 16 games ago, but the close WIN against Denfeld was 16 games ago as well.

Agreed. Just as I'm not going to say the Bemidji game didn't happen and still give that nod to Hermantown, I do the same with the Denfeld game.

Lastly seeing that these are Class A rankings please tell me again who Hermantown has lost to? I know you have a issue with them not playing either EGF or Warroad, but they have pretty much played and beaten everyone else.

Who has Warroad lost to? Hermantown has lost to no Class A teams and are #3. Warroad has only lost to 1 Class A team and are #2. Losing to #1 doesn't make you lower than #2...unless you want your team higher.
So, you want to use Breck's overall resume to put them ahead of teams who have beaten them, but then when it comes to your team simply ignore overall resume and only look at Class A games?

Please point out what I left out to make my argument. you even added a game for me.It sure seems like the Hermantown fans aren't the only ones who use certain games in their favor. Although we can all just discount certain games to fit our argument.

You left out all of the games Hermantown lost and how they compare to Warroad's schedule. You also continue to ignore when the games are played.
I, however, did not leave out any games and consider when all of the games are played.

You also said in Point#2 that one game can not decide a season. But Hermantown fans should Rank New Prague over Hermantown because they lost to Eagan by more? Despite having a better schedule.

I'm not saying that game makes them better; go back and you'll notice that I didn't rank New Prague above Hermantown at the time. My point is that you are using one game to say your team is better than another, but have failed to bring up one game that could've used the same logic to bring another team above yours.

So... If Warroad should drop because they lost to the #1 team in the state, what should happen with Hermantown now that they tied Denfeld?

It'll be interesting to see how this gets spun.
Also interesting to see Denfeld heating up at the right time.
While a Virginia tie or win with Marshall on Thursday sure would stir things up a little, it's hard to deny that 7A is going to be closer than anyone thought originally.

SCC at number 4 seems to be very generous. Other than a recent win over TG, they have no wins against top 10 teams. They are 0-4 against EGF, Warroad, Hermantown and Breck, giving up 18 goals and only scoring 2 against them. I'd have them in the 7 to 10 range on this list.

I agree that at first glance it seems a bit high, but 3 of those 4 teams they are 0-4 against are ranked ahead of them. It's hard to hold losses to teams ranked higher against them. Also, Breck is where they are because of what they've done as of late.
I'd also add, as others have, that they've beaten #5 Totino and #8 New Prague.

Interesting rankings: By putting Warroad at #2 in spite of losing 5-1 to EGF and being out shot 46-19 on home ice, it sounds as if you are implying that there is a large gap between EGF and the rest of A hockey. I personally felt that loss was bad enough to put Warroad down #3 at the very least behind Hermantown.

Not to beat a dead horse here, but what it comes down to is that I don't the #2 losing to the #1 means they aren't the #2.
Few outside of Hermantown had issues with Warroad at #2 last week; losing to #1 (a team they previously tied) doesn't now make them worse than #3.

Seriously, none of this means anything... It will all shake out in the playoffs, as it should.

Amen to that.


Anyway, long post; I leave this alone for two days and there's apparently a lot to respond to. I try to be as consistent week in and week out as I can. That's not going to change.
Good luck to all teams playing this week!

[TheInsider]

This may be the best Class A tournament in quite some time; while it's fun to argue who is the best right now, it really is going to become irrelevant because virtually all 8 teams, maybe with the exception of Luverne, will have a chance to win it; and who knows, maybe even an average Luverne team can do it. Anything can happen come playoff time.

What?! You realize only 3 of the top five teams will be able to play in the tournament right? Hermantown and Marshall in the same section. EGF and Warroad in the same section. With STA out and 2 sets of the top five teams in the same section. I dont know how it could be the best field in quite some time. Maybe worst in quite some time..

[hockeydad]

Insider.... The poster did NOT say it would be the best field.... The statement ws it could be the best tournament. That might mean it could be one of the more balanced tournaments with more competitive games, rather than having one large Class A private school dominate the field.

[TheInsider]

Insider.... The poster did NOT say it would be the best field.... The statement ws it could be the best tournament. That might mean it could be one of the more balanced tournaments with more competitive games, rather than having one large Class A private school dominate the field.

Yeah, youre right, I guess I read that wrong.

[GopherPuck15]

Insider.... The poster did NOT say it would be the best field.... The statement ws it could be the best tournament. That might mean it could be one of the more balanced tournaments with more competitive games, rather than having one large Class A private school dominate the field.

Bingo.

You won't have 2 of the top 5 teams, but you likely will have 6 top 10 teams as well as a Luverne squad that, albeit against a mediocre schedule, will be undefeated and want to prove something. It's shaping up to be a complete toss up in Class A this year and I believe a very good tournament awaits.

[HShockeywatcher]

28 votes in and 81% of people think Breck should be higher, but 0 have responded to my comments of why I have them where I do.
Were their TG/DM losses early in the season and EGF/SCC wins recent (switch the four games, for example), there is a good chance I'd have them in the top 2...but when games are played matter. I'm ranking the team as they are now.

If you looked at their body of work in random order and ignored dates, there'd be a solid case to be made for them to be as high as #1. It would be very inconsistent of me to put them above two teams that recently beat them and weigh earlier games more than recent ones. It also makes things more solid for me that TG recently lost to DM and TG is now coming off an impressive win over BSM. Using the one game we have for comparison of late, DM also beat SPA "better" than Breck.

Anyway, just my two cents. The poll is great, but it doesn't provide much constructive feedback. Thanks

Insider.... The poster did NOT say it would be the best field.... The statement ws it could be the best tournament. That might mean it could be one of the more balanced tournaments with more competitive games, rather than having one large Class A private school dominate the field.

Bingo.

You won't have 2 of the top 5 teams, but you likely will have 6 top 10 teams as well as a Luverne squad that, albeit against a mediocre schedule, will be undefeated and want to prove something. It's shaping up to be a complete toss up in Class A this year and I believe a very good tournament awaits.

You have made a point of noting that Luverne is not good in multiple posts this thread. Do you believe that Chisago Lakes/Princeton is better than them, or are you simply forgetting about that section?

[Juggernaut]

28 votes in and 81% of people think Breck should be higher, but 0 have responded to my comments of why I have them where I do.

You’re not getting a lot of arguments for where you have Breck because your logic is pretty sound. IMO, I agree with your logic as to where you have Breck with the exception of where you have them in relation to SCC. Yes, SCC recently beat TG, who beat Breck, both were relatively close games. Yet Breck beat SCC three weeks ago by 5. And while it was in December when Breck played EGF, the game ended in running time. I saw the Breck- EGF game so I struggle with a #7 next to Breck, but like I said I can’t argument with your logic for the most part.

[elliott70]

Breck will prove themselves in the STATE tourney.

Either by getting by Hermantown in the semis and being the runner-up to EGF or losing to HTown and taking third place.

[TTpuckster]

Another wrench in the next upcoming ranking.
TG beat BSM last night 6 - 4. TG came back from a 4 -0 score to win it.

[GopherPuck15]

28 votes in and 81% of people think Breck should be higher, but 0 have responded to my comments of why I have them where I do.
Were their TG/DM losses early in the season and EGF/SCC wins recent (switch the four games, for example), there is a good chance I'd have them in the top 2...but when games are played matter. I'm ranking the team as they are now.

If you looked at their body of work in random order and ignored dates, there'd be a solid case to be made for them to be as high as #1. It would be very inconsistent of me to put them above two teams that recently beat them and weigh earlier games more than recent ones. It also makes things more solid for me that TG recently lost to DM and TG is now coming off an impressive win over BSM. Using the one game we have for comparison of late, DM also beat SPA "better" than Breck.

Anyway, just my two cents. The poll is great, but it doesn't provide much constructive feedback. Thanks

Insider.... The poster did NOT say it would be the best field.... The statement ws it could be the best tournament. That might mean it could be one of the more balanced tournaments with more competitive games, rather than having one large Class A private school dominate the field.

Bingo.

You won't have 2 of the top 5 teams, but you likely will have 6 top 10 teams as well as a Luverne squad that, albeit against a mediocre schedule, will be undefeated and want to prove something. It's shaping up to be a complete toss up in Class A this year and I believe a very good tournament awaits.

You have made a point of noting that Luverne is not good in multiple posts this thread. Do you believe that Chisago Lakes/Princeton is better than them, or are you simply forgetting about that section?

Top 3
Hermantown, Breck, EGF/Warroad

Next 3
Mankato West, Totino Grace, Cathedral
I'd put Duluth Marshall here, FWIW.

Next 1

Chisago Lakes/Princeton

Last 1

Luverne

I was insinuating that CL/Princeton are closer to the next 3 than last 1.

[elliott70]

Top 3
Hermantown, Breck, EGF/Warroad

Next 3
Mankato West, Totino Grace, Cathedral
I'd put Duluth Marshall here, FWIW.

Next 1

Chisago Lakes/Princeton

Last 1

Luverne

I was insinuating that CL/Princeton are closer to the next 3 than last 1.

What about New Prague???

And I am not sure SCC will be there as 6A ahs several good but not overpowering teams in Alex, Sartell, Sauk Rapids, St Cloud A.
And if you put D. Marshall in the mix then Denfeld and Virginia need consideration. And then you cannot leave out Thief River Falls.

But the top 3 are EGF, Hermantown and Breck.
I would put Warroad in at #4.

Top 3 seeds at state with MWest or New Prague at 4 or 5. And SCC or Alex (if there) at 4 or 5. If those two not there then Maht or Totino.

[fastncrash]

I think it speaks pretty good of the Class when there's so much debate about who's #1. As always, a lot of good teams will not even make it to state, but I believe you will see as much balance as ever among the one's who are. MUCH unlike the past few years of who's going to get 2nd or WIN the Public School Title...

Bring all of it EVERY game, or risk dusting off the clubs early.

(Dusting off the clubs to whack at the snow and ice on the driveway, of course!)

[GopherPuck15]

Top 3
Hermantown, Breck, EGF, Warroad

Next 3
Mankato West, Totino Grace, Cathedral
I'd put Duluth Marshall here, FWIW.

Next 1

Chisago Lakes, Princeton

Last 1

Luverne

I was insinuating that CL/Princeton are closer to the next 3 than last 1.

What about New Prague???

And I am not sure SCC will be there as 6A ahs several good but not overpowering teams in Alex, Sartell, Sauk Rapids, St Cloud A.
And if you put D. Marshall in the mix then Denfeld and Virginia need consideration. And then you cannot leave out Thief River Falls.

But the top 3 are EGF, Hermantown and Breck.
I would put Warroad in at #4.

Top 3 seeds at state with MWest or New Prague at 4 or 5. And SCC or Alex (if there) at 4 or 5. If those two not there then Maht or Totino.

How about this...


Top 3
Hermantown, Breck, EGF, Warroad

Next 3
Mankato West, Totino Grace, Cathedral

Duluth Marshall, Virginia

Next 1

Chisago Lakes/Princeton


New Prague, Thief River Falls, Duluth Denfeld, Mahtomedi, Alexandria

Last 1

Luverne

Sartell, Sauk Rapids, St Cloud A.

[HShockeywatcher]

28 votes in and 81% of people think Breck should be higher, but 0 have responded to my comments of why I have them where I do.

You’re not getting a lot of arguments for where you have Breck because your logic is pretty sound. IMO, I agree with your logic as to where you have Breck with the exception of where you have them in relation to SCC. Yes, SCC recently beat TG, who beat Breck, both were relatively close games. Yet Breck beat SCC three weeks ago by 5. And while it was in December when Breck played EGF, the game ended in running time. I saw the Breck- EGF game so I struggle with a #7 next to Breck, but like I said I can’t argument with your logic for the most part.

Thanks

The biggest issue with the Breck/EGF game is the dynamics of the game. Breck hadn't played a game in a few days, while EGF was on the road and played a top 10 team in Blaine the night before. While I haven't completely dismissed this game as some have, it's hard to know what to take away from it.

Top 3
Hermantown, Breck, EGF/Warroad

Next 3
Mankato West, Totino Grace, Cathedral
I'd put Duluth Marshall here, FWIW.

Next 1

Chisago Lakes/Princeton

Last 1

Luverne

I was insinuating that CL/Princeton are closer to the next 3 than last 1.

I'm very curious about your rationale for this. I have Luverne ranked now because of their similar win with Orono, win over Kennedy and few flaws. LPH has them ranked now as well. Princeton has lost to Chisago twice and Chisago hasn't done much to brag about at this point.
Why is Luverne the "last 1" and not the two just the "last 2"?

[GopherPuck15]

28 votes in and 81% of people think Breck should be higher, but 0 have responded to my comments of why I have them where I do.

You’re not getting a lot of arguments for where you have Breck because your logic is pretty sound. IMO, I agree with your logic as to where you have Breck with the exception of where you have them in relation to SCC. Yes, SCC recently beat TG, who beat Breck, both were relatively close games. Yet Breck beat SCC three weeks ago by 5. And while it was in December when Breck played EGF, the game ended in running time. I saw the Breck- EGF game so I struggle with a #7 next to Breck, but like I said I can’t argument with your logic for the most part.

Thanks

The biggest issue with the Breck/EGF game is the dynamics of the game. Breck hadn't played a game in a few days, while EGF was on the road and played a top 10 team in Blaine the night before. While I haven't completely dismissed this game as some have, it's hard to know what to take away from it.

Top 3
Hermantown, Breck, EGF/Warroad

Next 3
Mankato West, Totino Grace, Cathedral
I'd put Duluth Marshall here, FWIW.

Next 1

Chisago Lakes/Princeton

Last 1

Luverne

I was insinuating that CL/Princeton are closer to the next 3 than last 1.

I'm very curious about your rationale for this. I have Luverne ranked now because of their similar win with Orono, win over Kennedy and few flaws. LPH has them ranked now as well. Princeton has lost to Chisago twice and Chisago hasn't done much to brag about at this point.
Why is Luverne the "last 1" and not the two just the "last 2"?

It may be more of a last 2 thing; quite honestly, I know the least about 5A.

I'd be willing to bet they have played a far tougher schedule than Luverne, though.

[notTONIGHT]

You’re not getting a lot of arguments for where you have Breck because your logic is pretty sound. IMO, I agree with your logic as to where you have Breck with the exception of where you have them in relation to SCC. Yes, SCC recently beat TG, who beat Breck, both were relatively close games. Yet Breck beat SCC three weeks ago by 5. And while it was in December when Breck played EGF, the game ended in running time. I saw the Breck- EGF game so I struggle with a #7 next to Breck, but like I said I can’t argument with your logic for the most part.

Thanks

The biggest issue with the Breck/EGF game is the dynamics of the game. Breck hadn't played a game in a few days, while EGF was on the road and played a top 10 team in Blaine the night before. While I haven't completely dismissed this game as some have, it's hard to know what to take away from it.

Top 3
Hermantown, Breck, EGF/Warroad

Next 3
Mankato West, Totino Grace, Cathedral
I'd put Duluth Marshall here, FWIW.

Next 1

Chisago Lakes/Princeton

Last 1

Luverne

I was insinuating that CL/Princeton are closer to the next 3 than last 1.

I'm very curious about your rationale for this. I have Luverne ranked now because of their similar win with Orono, win over Kennedy and few flaws. LPH has them ranked now as well. Princeton has lost to Chisago twice and Chisago hasn't done much to brag about at this point.
Why is Luverne the "last 1" and not the two just the "last 2"?

It may be more of a last 2 thing; quite honestly, I know the least about 5A.

I'd be willing to bet they have played a far tougher schedule than Luverne, though.

ANNNNND we are back to where schedule means more than results.

Forget the games, team with the best schedule gets to have open skate at the X on saturday in march and carry the trophy around the ice because their geographic location and athletic director did a better job than the anyone else.

(Its because he doesnt like Luverne)

[GopherPuck15]

Thanks

The biggest issue with the Breck/EGF game is the dynamics of the game. Breck hadn't played a game in a few days, while EGF was on the road and played a top 10 team in Blaine the night before. While I haven't completely dismissed this game as some have, it's hard to know what to take away from it.
I'm very curious about your rationale for this. I have Luverne ranked now because of their similar win with Orono, win over Kennedy and few flaws. LPH has them ranked now as well. Princeton has lost to Chisago twice and Chisago hasn't done much to brag about at this point.
Why is Luverne the "last 1" and not the two just the "last 2"?

It may be more of a last 2 thing; quite honestly, I know the least about 5A.

I'd be willing to bet they have played a far tougher schedule than Luverne, though.

ANNNNND we are back to where schedule means more than results.

Forget the games, team with the best schedule gets to have open skate at the X on saturday in march and carry the trophy around the ice because their geographic location and athletic director did a better job than the anyone else.

(Its because he doesnt like Luverne)

Why shouldn't schedule matter?

How many teams would be undefeated in Class A playing Luverne's schedule? The entire LPH Top 20?

[notTONIGHT]

Why shouldn't schedule matter?

How many teams would be undefeated in Class A playing Luverne's schedule? The entire LPH Top 20?

It does Matter. But so do results. Winning isnt easy.

Tell me how Mankato West's schedule earns them such a high regard in your power rankings.

[Teak]

ANNNNND we are back to where schedule means more than results.

Forget the games, team with the best schedule gets to have open skate at the X on saturday in march and carry the trophy around the ice because their geographic location and athletic director did a better job than the anyone else.

I like this idea. Think of the money it would save. And there would be fewer "discussions" on these threads.

[GopherPuck15]

Why shouldn't schedule matter?

How many teams would be undefeated in Class A playing Luverne's schedule? The entire LPH Top 20?

It does Matter. But so do results. Winning isnt easy.

Tell me how Mankato West's schedule earns them such a high regard in your power rankings.

Mankato West started the year returning virtually everyone off of a top 15 team last year, has phenomenal goaltending, two Elite league players, and has lost by a goal to the #6 team in the state, destroyed a team that Duluth Marshall tied, and lost in OT to a team that beat EGF 2-0. They've taken care of everyone that they should, and have been extremely competitive in their two losses. You're right, winning isn't easy. Especially against better competition.

I'm no expert on any section, and have only seen West play once this year, but they're extremely deep up front and on the backside, and have very good goaltending.

[HShockeywatcher]

Why shouldn't schedule matter?

How many teams would be undefeated in Class A playing Luverne's schedule? The entire LPH Top 20?

It does Matter. But so do results. Winning isnt easy.

Tell me how Mankato West's schedule earns them such a high regard in your power rankings.

Mankato West started the year returning virtually everyone off of a top 15 team last year, has phenomenal goaltending, two Elite league players, and has lost by a goal to the #6 team in the state, destroyed a team that Duluth Marshall tied, and lost in OT to a team that beat EGF 2-0. They've taken care of everyone that they should, and have been extremely competitive in their two losses. You're right, winning isn't easy. Especially against better competition.

I'm no expert on any section, and have only seen West play once this year, but they're extremely deep up front and on the backside, and have very good goaltending.

While I agree with all you said about West, how do you have them in a higher tier than a section opponent they lost to in their one match up?

[HShockeywatcher]

Hermantown 4
Denfeld 4

Grand Rapids 5
Hermantown 3

Warroad 1
TRF 2

A Warroad win over Bemidji along with a Hermantown win over Brainerd to end the week would make this oh so fun

[GopherPuck15]

It does Matter. But so do results. Winning isnt easy.

Tell me how Mankato West's schedule earns them such a high regard in your power rankings.

Mankato West started the year returning virtually everyone off of a top 15 team last year, has phenomenal goaltending, two Elite league players, and has lost by a goal to the #6 team in the state, destroyed a team that Duluth Marshall tied, and lost in OT to a team that beat EGF 2-0. They've taken care of everyone that they should, and have been extremely competitive in their two losses. You're right, winning isn't easy. Especially against better competition.

I'm no expert on any section, and have only seen West play once this year, but they're extremely deep up front and on the backside, and have very good goaltending.

While I agree with all you said about West, how do you have them in a higher tier than a section opponent they lost to in their one match up?

That is based on what i've seen. I saw West play Notre Dame Academy, and that was really fast paced, extremely good hockey; from what i've heard, West has yet to reach that level of play again. I saw New Prague play Hermantown. Hermantown did a good job matching NP's effort and physical play, thus beat NP fairly handily. In the NP/West game, a guy I work with was there, and stated how West looked shell shocked with how hard NP played. We'll see if they've learned their lesson.

New Prague doesn't have as much skill and talent as the tiers above them. They do have an extremely hardworking group of good players that are bought into their system, though. If both teams played their best game, I'd take West 4-2 or something like that. Just my opinion, I guess, and like I said, I haven't been able to see these teams play more than that, so it's based on my knowledge of their kids and what I've heard from sources who I trust.

[ted2you]

No disrespect to Luverne or Mankato West, but who you play does matter when ranking. I will use the analogy of Florida State and North Dakota State in football. Both D1 teams went unbeaten, but could you really consider that they were of the same ability. North Dakota State beat K-State on the road (a nice win) but can you really imagine them going unbeaten playing that competition every week. Luverne has except one tie beaten the all comers, but comparing to a team like EGF who has played Blaine, Breck, Moorhead, Bemidji 2xs, Warroad 2x's, TRF's 2x's, Roseau 2x's, both Grand forks schools 2x's is apples to oranges. Warroad, Breck, Hermantown and a number of other A schools can make the same claim. I'm not trying to discredit Luverne, Like NDSU, they play where they play; but do you really think Luverne would be a .500 team against that competition? After all it is just ranking, but even if you assume they are as good as the top teams,what will hurt Luverne in the end is facing teams who have played that competition all season.