7A Final: #1 Hermantown vs #2 Duluth Marshall 2/26 7:30

[HSH1212]

With Hermantown back in 7A Marshall’s road to state, as we saw last night, is much tougher.
As a result, Marshall will have a harder time convincing top talent to move to their school.
Hermantown doesn’t lose talent to anybody, but East and Denfeld do.
Herm is 7A definitely helps both East and Denfeld, as I think players from both programs will think twice now before they jump ship.
Imo, today is not a good day for the Marshall hockey program.

I don't understand this reasoning at all.

If I understand the reasoning, it goes like this:

1. Hermantown is now in Marshall's section

2. Marshall can kiss their trips to State bye-bye

3. Why would East and Denfeld kids transfer to Marshall, knowing they'll get beat by Hermantown every year?

Not that I agree with this....

Lee

The only problem with this statement is that programs ebb and flow up and down. If you go back to the 2005-2008 years, Duluth Marshall was by in large the elite program in the Duluth area and had very good stretches of wins over Hermantown (they probably would have beaten East then too). It wasn't until 2009 that Hermantown started consistently beating Marshall. The way transfers often work is that one kid moves and he often pulls friends with him. Some people want their kids at a private school for non-hockey reasons too and the extent to which people are unhappy at East affects Marshall's team. If Marshall gets a talented player from East to transfer, they bring a couple more and the tide could easily turn in Marshall's favor very quickly. I'd even argue Marshall has some benefits notably playing a real schedule (unlike Hermantown) against top Twin Cities programs which means more scouts watching Marshall players. Now lets not kid ourselves, Marshall losing to Hermantown SIX straight years does not look great and its clear that Marshall has fallen below Hermantown in the pecking order of quality programs in Duluth.

That being said, I think the future looks equally bright for Marshall and I suspect they will be back at the state tournament within the next couple years. I'd be more concerned about the Iron Range, Denfeld, and Proctor than Marshall.

As for the Hermantown youth program, it does appear to be even stronger than East end is right now. But, quite a bit of Hermantown talent first developed elsewhere and moved in. So Plante's complaining of private schools is a little ridiculous in light of the interest his program is too attracting from good players. Not all Hermantown's talent is homegrown.

[PuckRanger]

Wrong, krammers dad work for the mines they relocated. Same with gotz. Gotz's mom works in Duluth.

If people go to the extent of relocating not much anyone can do about. Plante will not take anyone and tells kids to play in their home town. If they move he can't do anything about it

Actually, only partially wrong. I had a brief brain freeze. You are right, he is not a teacher. For some reason I associated him with a different Kramer that is a teacher in Virginia. Not sure why... I knew better... And you are right, if people choose to move (well... at least half of the family, anyway), there is nothing anyone can do about it.

Hermantown does not accept any open enrollment students because they are over capacity with their facilities, so the only way to get in there is to physically move into the school district.

Anyway, I will tell you flat out that I live in Virginia (Most people who have been on this board long enough already know that) and I work in Chisholm. I have many connections in both the Virginia and Hibbing/Chisholm hockey programs. In fact, my kid plays in Virginia's youth program and I have very close ties to a kid that plays JV in Hibbing.

I personally knew Zach Kramer's dad. I went to high school with him and his mom. I spoke with them on a fairly regular basis until Zach moved with his mom a few years ago. His mom took a job at a hotel and moved down there so he could play hockey at Hermantown as a bantam. While they may not like me saying this, that IS the sole reason Zach went to Hermantown. His dad moved down a couple years later after Zach was assured of a varsity spot.

While I don't know the Gotz's personally, I know many of the parents whose kids he played with. Gotz's mom did the same thing as Mrs. Kramer. She took a job closer to Hermantown, moved, and got around the open enrollment issue. His dad does still live and teach in Hibbing.

Hermantown is NOT a completely homegrown program anymore. They may not have as many blatant transfers as Duluth Marshall, but they are undoubtedly no longer using solely their own youth hockey kids. A quick glance at their Peewee A roster with this age group will confirm that.

The bottom line is that the two teams that played in the section finals had some better players from other youth programs on their rosters that were regular contributors. I'd imagine if all these kids had stayed where they started, North Shore would have been significantly stronger, Virginia would have been a little deeper, Hibbing might have been a bit more of a threat, Marshall would be drastically weaker, and Hermantown not quite as deep. Considering how close some of the regular season games were, it would have been a much more wide open section. Although, I think the only thing that really changes is Hermantown's opponent in the finals... they still would probably win it.

[Nevertoomuchhockey]

Marshall is a private school. Every single kid is a "blatant transfer."

[4chex]

Wrong, krammers dad work for the mines they relocated. Same with gotz. Gotz's mom works in Duluth.

If people go to the extent of relocating not much anyone can do about. Plante will not take anyone and tells kids to play in their home town. If they move he can't do anything about it

Actually, only partially wrong. I had a brief brain freeze. You are right, he is not a teacher. For some reason I associated him with a different Kramer that is a teacher in Virginia. Not sure why... I knew better... And you are right, if people choose to move (well... at least half of the family, anyway), there is nothing anyone can do about it.

Hermantown does not accept any open enrollment students because they are over capacity with their facilities, so the only way to get in there is to physically move into the school district.

Anyway, I will tell you flat out that I live in Virginia (Most people who have been on this board long enough already know that) and I work in Chisholm. I have many connections in both the Virginia and Hibbing/Chisholm hockey programs. In fact, my kid plays in Virginia's youth program and I have very close ties to a kid that plays JV in Hibbing.

I personally knew Zach Kramer's dad. I went to high school with him and his mom. I spoke with them on a fairly regular basis until Zach moved with his mom a few years ago. His mom took a job at a hotel and moved down there so he could play hockey at Hermantown as a bantam. While they may not like me saying this, that IS the sole reason Zach went to Hermantown. His dad moved down a couple years later after Zach was assured of a varsity spot.

While I don't know the Gotz's personally, I know many of the parents whose kids he played with. Gotz's mom did the same thing as Mrs. Kramer. She took a job closer to Hermantown, moved, and got around the open enrollment issue. His dad does still live and teach in Hibbing.

Hermantown is NOT a completely homegrown program anymore. They may not have as many blatant transfers as Duluth Marshall, but they are undoubtedly no longer using solely their own youth hockey kids. A quick glance at their Peewee A roster with this age group will confirm that.

The bottom line is that the two teams that played in the section finals had some better players from other youth programs on their rosters that were regular contributors. I'd imagine if all these kids had stayed where they started, North Shore would have been significantly stronger, Virginia would have been a little deeper, Hibbing might have been a bit more of a threat, Marshall would be drastically weaker, and Hermantown not quite as deep. Considering how close some of the regular season games were, it would have been a much more wide open section. Although, I think the only thing that really changes is Hermantown's opponent in the finals... they still would probably win it.

Puck Puck Puck, I'm a bit surprised at your lack of facts in your last spew. Fact of the matter is there's kids moving in and out of nearly every association in the state for their own reasons. In recent years your beloved Blue Devils are the recipients of players from Eveleth, Ely, and wherever Murray the goaltender is from. All looking for greener pastures much like those that moved out. I'm gonna have to challenge your credibilty here in regard to the Gotz and Kramer families. FACT: The entire Gotz family resides in Hermantown. Not just "half" as you imply. The entire Kramer family moved to Hermantown at the same time. Not just "half" as you imply. Both dad's commute to their jobs and have from the start. Your suggestion that the parents lived apart is laughable and the furthest from the truth.


And as far as both kids moving "just to play hockey in Hermantown"...false. It had MORE to do with NOT wanting to play for their previous associations than "wanting" to play for Hermantown. The rash of moves out of Virginia in that same time frame suggests there may have been an underlying issue.

"Gotz's mom did the same thing as Mrs. Kramer"...Absolutely correct. Both ladies moved with their families to provide more opportunities for their children. Just out of curiosity, do you know what these families like for breakfast?

"Hermantown is NOT a homegrown program anymore"...True
I haven't done the research myself but I would bet most high school teams in the state, Hermantown included, have players on their roster that did not start as mini-mites in their respective associations. It is what it is. Kids come and go.

[rockcrusher]

3.​Change of Residence
​A change of residence is the actual physical relocation by the parents or guardians of a student with the intent to reside indefinitely at a new residence in Minnesota and terminate all occupancy of a previous residence. The change in residence must be bona fide, include other minor siblings and involve a transfer from one school district attendance area to another school district attendance area.

​For purposes of eligibility determinations, the residence of a student shall be the bona fide location of the residence and must include occupancy by the students’ parents or guardians in the public school attendance area. Both parents, except as otherwise provided herein, must physically reside at the residence on a regular basis for the duration of the student’s enrollment.

​If married, residence is determined by the bona fide residence iwhere the student and the student’s spouse actually reside.

​In determining whether a change in residence is bona fide, a member school and the League may consider, but will not be limited to:
​A.​New mailing address of the parents or guardians
​B.​Voting registration of parents or guardians that coincides with the new residence
​C.​Driver’s license registration that coincides with the new residence
​D.​Purchase or rental agreements
​E.​Any other reliable evidence of residency



That is straight from the MSHSL website. So... Unless legally separated or divorced, I believe you may have opened a new can of worms. Ma and Pa must reside together.

[Froggy Richards]

Hermantown does not accept any open enrollment students because they are over capacity with their facilities, so the only way to get in there is to physically move into the school district.

Not true. They do take open enrollments but there is a waiting list for most grades because they are full. Once a spot opens up, you get in.

They passed a referendum this year to build new facilities which will increase their capacity. Once that happens, watch out!

[statein07]

reading the crap that gets spewed on here makes me laugh and think, "where do these people come up with these ridiculous statements?" i mean seriuosly you're bashing a kid who's family lives in hermantown mom works in hermantown and dad works on the range? wow we need to grow up a bit

[TheInsider]

Marshall is a private school. Every single kid is a "blatant transfer."

So if you go there your freshman year your a transfer?

[HSH1212]

Marshall is a private school. Every single kid is a "blatant transfer."

So if you go there your freshman year your a transfer?

I think the point being made is that the way in which players transfer to Marshall is often considered less acceptable.

If a player transfers to Marshall in 8th or 9th grade, they obviously make a clear signal where they intend to play hockey before high school hockey begins. What Marshall tends to get more flack for are the kids who transfer AFTER playing high school at another program. In other words, they transfer after their 10th or 11th grade year at another program (Denfeld). You could argue this is less acceptable/more blatant because it feels more like Marshall is "stealing" from other programs...whereas the kids who come to Marshall earlier is probably less of an issue for most in the area.

I would say I have no issue with kids transferring up until they begin playing high school hockey (usually 10th grade). Marshall tends to see a higher percentage of mid-career transfers than East or Hermantown.

[north guy]

Not sure about Gotz but Kramer's still own a house in Virginia. They rent in Hermantown. Hmmm.

[4chex]

Not sure about Gotz but Kramer's still own a house in Virginia. They rent in Hermantown. Hmmm.

Pretty profound "first" post north guy. What facts are you using to back your statement? Because the St Louis county website shows otherwise. Kudos to you though for hiding behind a screen name with your feeble shot across the bow. Great work. Get on board with the rest of the uninformed haters but you better hurry, the train is filling fast.

[BigTen]

I don't understand this reasoning at all.

If I understand the reasoning, it goes like this:

1. Hermantown is now in Marshall's section

2. Marshall can kiss their trips to State bye-bye

3. Why would East and Denfeld kids transfer to Marshall, knowing they'll get beat by Hermantown every year?

Not that I agree with this....

Lee

The only problem with this statement is that programs ebb and flow up and down. If you go back to the 2005-2008 years, Duluth Marshall was by in large the elite program in the Duluth area and had very good stretches of wins over Hermantown (they probably would have beaten East then too). It wasn't until 2009 that Hermantown started consistently beating Marshall. The way transfers often work is that one kid moves and he often pulls friends with him. Some people want their kids at a private school for non-hockey reasons too and the extent to which people are unhappy at East affects Marshall's team. If Marshall gets a talented player from East to transfer, they bring a couple more and the tide could easily turn in Marshall's favor very quickly. I'd even argue Marshall has some benefits notably playing a real schedule (unlike Hermantown) against top Twin Cities programs which means more scouts watching Marshall players. Now lets not kid ourselves, Marshall losing to Hermantown SIX straight years does not look great and its clear that Marshall has fallen below Hermantown in the pecking order of quality programs in Duluth.

That being said, I think the future looks equally bright for Marshall and I suspect they will be back at the state tournament within the next couple years. I'd be more concerned about the Iron Range, Denfeld, and Proctor than Marshall.

As for the Hermantown youth program, it does appear to be even stronger than East end is right now. But, quite a bit of Hermantown talent first developed elsewhere and moved in. So Plante's complaining of private schools is a little ridiculous in light of the interest his program is too attracting from good players. Not all Hermantown's talent is homegrown.

HSH1212 ,
I was wondering where you get your information from saying Marshall has a real schedule unlike Hermantown. The only two SOS ratings I have found show Hermantown's SOS higher than Marshall. Those are Mitch Hawker's and Myhockeyrankings.com

[bemused]

Marshall is a private school. Every single kid is a "blatant transfer."

So if you go there your freshman year your a transfer?

I think the point being made is that the way in which players transfer to Marshall is often considered less acceptable.

If a player transfers to Marshall in 8th or 9th grade, they obviously make a clear signal where they intend to play hockey before high school hockey begins. What Marshall tends to get more flack for are the kids who transfer AFTER playing high school at another program. In other words, they transfer after their 10th or 11th grade year at another program (Denfeld). You could argue this is less acceptable/more blatant because it feels more like Marshall is "stealing" from other programs...whereas the kids who come to Marshall earlier is probably less of an issue for most in the area.

I would say I have no issue with kids transferring up until they begin playing high school hockey (usually 10th grade). Marshall tends to see a higher percentage of mid-career transfers than East or Hermantown.

Gotz played for the Hibbing high school team last year and his Dad was one of the coaches. That is blatant.

[HockeyBum]

Moving is one of the largest most stressful life decisions. There are more reasons people take into account when moving, not just hockey. Ok there are some idiots that take it too serious.

If I move to mpls. and my wife stays in Duluth for 3 months, but it is September and our house hasn't sold, I am taking my kids with to start the new school year at the beginning of the school year. Most people that complain about others with regards to hockey moves, usually has a axe to grind with the receiving program or the family. Sad!

All of the Marshall, East or Hermantown transfers are legit. Per Mn HS rules. It doesn't matter what your opinion is.

If you don't like the rules talk to MSHL and have them changed. Private or public. It sounds like people are just having to complain about something they are guessing at.

And by the way the earlier post of the two proctor player transfers to H-town in bantams, one of the kids got cut last year from the program, came back this year and made the team. Not sure but that takes grit from the family and kid.

[EHSHack]

Only in the U.S. do we have people complaining about parents moving their kids to a better situation...

[PuckRanger]

Puck Puck Puck, I'm a bit surprised at your lack of facts in your last spew. Fact of the matter is there's kids moving in and out of nearly every association in the state for their own reasons. In recent years your beloved Blue Devils are the recipients of players from Eveleth, Ely, and wherever Murray the goaltender is from. All looking for greener pastures much like those that moved out. I'm gonna have to challenge your credibilty here in regard to the Gotz and Kramer families. FACT: The entire Gotz family resides in Hermantown. Not just "half" as you imply. The entire Kramer family moved to Hermantown at the same time. Not just "half" as you imply. Both dad's commute to their jobs and have from the start. Your suggestion that the parents lived apart is laughable and the furthest from the truth.

I stand by what I said. I don't think I need to defend my credibility. If you really want any further details, I will PM them to you.

The rash of moves out of Virginia in that same time frame suggests there may have been an underlying issue.

Just FYI, there were two kids that left Virginia from that age group (a few quit, but never moved), one to Hibbing as a peewee and one to Hermantown as a bantam. Hardly a rash and they were a couple years apart.

I don't disagree with the rest of your comments. I never said Hermantown was the only town receiving imports. But there are plenty of people on here claiming Hermantown is 100% home grown talent. And that is not true. That's the only point I (and others) were trying to make. Nothing more, nothing less. Not bashing the kids, the parents, the program, or anything of the sort. I do realize that is the times we live in and that's how things are.

[4chex]

Puck Puck Puck, I'm a bit surprised at your lack of facts in your last spew. Fact of the matter is there's kids moving in and out of nearly every association in the state for their own reasons. In recent years your beloved Blue Devils are the recipients of players from Eveleth, Ely, and wherever Murray the goaltender is from. All looking for greener pastures much like those that moved out. I'm gonna have to challenge your credibilty here in regard to the Gotz and Kramer families. FACT: The entire Gotz family resides in Hermantown. Not just "half" as you imply. The entire Kramer family moved to Hermantown at the same time. Not just "half" as you imply. Both dad's commute to their jobs and have from the start. Your suggestion that the parents lived apart is laughable and the furthest from the truth.

I stand by what I said. I don't think I need to defend my credibility. If you really want any further details, I will PM them to you.

The rash of moves out of Virginia in that same time frame suggests there may have been an underlying issue.

Just FYI, there were two kids that left Virginia from that age group (a few quit, but never moved), one to Hibbing as a peewee and one to Hermantown as a bantam. Hardly a rash and they were a couple years apart.

I don't disagree with the rest of your comments. I never said Hermantown was the only town receiving imports. But there are plenty of people on here claiming Hermantown is 100% home grown talent. And that is not true. That's the only point I (and others) were trying to make. Nothing more, nothing less. Not bashing the kids, the parents, the program, or anything of the sort. I do realize that is the times we live in and that's how things are.

In your first rebuttal, you're absolutely positively wrong. Trust me when I say this. I would love for you to PM me. I would love it even more for you to share with the group so I can expose what you feel are facts. I would suggest and you should know this with all your expertise that you make sure beyond all reasonable doubt that you know ALL the facts, especially when making it personal by mentioning families names. These families did what they saw fit for THEIR families and at the end of the day who cares. Although one of the moves is recent, one is over 4 years ago. Move on.

You're also partially wrong on the kids that moved out of virginia, in that 2 year time period. Had you done your homework you would know there were 4 players total, 2 of the same age group.

[east hockey]

This topic has move way past discussion of the game.

Lee

[grindiangrad-80]

I haven't done the research myself
Now we are getting somewhere.