Minnesota Hockey Needs A Geography Lesson

[PuckRanger]

Congratulations, to these NORTH region state representatives:

Peewee B: White Bear Lake, Mahtomedi
Peewee A: Highland Central, Mahtomedi
Bantam B: North St. Paul, White Bear Lake
Bantam A: Tartan, Highland Central

I hope they represent the Northern part of Minnesota well...

Someone want to tell me what the hell these teams are doing playing in REGIONAL tournaments in Proctor, Virginia, Coleraine, and Two Harbors with the Iron Range and Duluth area teams?

The Board of Directors at Minnesota Hockey should all be sent back to first grade to learn that just because "East Grand Forks" has the word "East" in it, they they do not belong in the "East" Region. And how the hell is Lake of the Woods "East" and White Bear Lake "North"?

This entire alignment is rigged to get more metro teams into the STATE tournament (which for Peewee A fans, will be held in the Eastern Minnesota town of Crookston.) If Minnesota Hockey wants a metro tournament, just call it that and only have metro teams participate. This entire thing makes me sick... D2, D11, and D12 all in one region... Really? Come on.



I'm not knocking the kids for this. They went where they were told and did what they needed to do to advance. Kudos to them for that. But they should have played in their own area, not drive 180+ miles north to play in a regional playoff.

[zooomx]

No complaints before the Regional Tournament, but pretty upset afterwards? Personally, as an outstate association, I am glad the Regions are set up as 4 pretty darn challenging regions. If you are going to state, you want to be challenged greatly at Regions. We are sending 2 teams from outstate and it was a battle to get there!

[BlackTape]

No lesson required.......Just want the best teams at the State Tournaments. quit your whining.

[PuckRanger]

No lesson required.......Just want the best teams at the State Tournaments. quit your whining.

I disagree with that. I think I watched three state tournament games this weekend in Peewee A's. Especially since two of the games were between teams that are 185 miles apart. The regional tournaments were quite competitive the way they were. This change did nothing to improve it. It just shifted where the teams come from and how far a few teams have to drive for regions.

I will use this year's state Peewee A field to make my point.
The eight teams that qualified for the state tournament in Peewee A's are all ranked in the top 11 in the last Let's Play Hockey poll. Hey, that's great you say... that's what I was getting at... get the best teams there!

Hold on though! If the regions were shifted back to geographical areas, most likely there would be only two different teams that make the field, Virginia and Warroad, and most likely Edina and Sartell would be out (Yes, that is debatable, but only at the expense of higher ranked teams).

Here is the main point: ALL 8 teams would be still be ranked in the LPH top 12. There is really no change in competitiveness of the field. Warroad would be the lowest ranked team at #12 and they beat Virginia twice this year, and Virginia beat Alexandria and just played two tight games with Mahtomedi. Those teams would do just as well as any of the others that made the field this year. The point of getting the best 8 teams there is invalid. You get a pretty good field either way... and there is no solution that will produce the exact top 8.

This solution is a great way to kill off the already struggling hockey in many out-state areas. It IS NOT good for Minnesota hockey. Its only good for a few select metro teams that are able to cash in on the extra opportunity.

No complaints before the Regional Tournament, but pretty upset afterwards? Personally, as an outstate association, I am glad the Regions are set up as 4 pretty darn challenging regions. If you are going to state, you want to be challenged greatly at Regions. We are sending 2 teams from out-state and it was a battle to get there!

I had complaints before hand... and so did many others up in our area. I just chose not to air them out here. Now seeing how only two teams north of Little Falls made the state tournament in A's and B's in both Peewee and Bantams combined, my concerns were validated and I think its worth discussing. I have no qualms with AA, that is setup differently and there aren't that many out-state teams that play that level.

Obviously you are from Alexandria since that is the only out-state association that has 2 qualifiers... It might have been a different story for your Peewee A team if you had Mahtomedi & Highland Central or Sartell & Orono in your region instead of Warroad and East Grand Forks. Your region got a little easier with the changes, not more challenging as you claim. The regions were a battle to get through before and they still would be had they been left alone.

[zooomx]

Well, the regions rotate on a yearly basis, and last year we did go up against district 3 with no complaints. There are multiple outstate teams in every region. We are given just as much opportunity as the metro teams, we just need to go through them a couple weeks earlier. I understand your frustration, but I can see the Metro side of things as well. They have a lot more teams, most of them are stronger than our outstate teams. Programs like Warroad, Roseau, Moorhead, Hermantown have proven you can compete with the metro if you put aside excuses and recruit numbers and train them well.

[InigoMontoya]

Sartell is a metro team?

[DrGaf]

Sartell is a metro team?

To an iron ranger ... yes.

[elliott70]

Sartell is a metro team?

They are not a NORTHERN TEAM.

150 miles pretty much straight south of Bemidji.

About 50 miles west and a little north of Rogers/Elk river.

[MWS coach]

The region format for A and B has not changed. Districts rotate between regions to make the math work. Some years districts will send three teams to regions and other years they send two.

If you changed the format to include the true northern teams (district 11,12,15,16) had their own region each would send two each year, Many years those districts send three teams to regions based upon rotation. In order to make a true northern region, teams from up north would actually be sending less teams to regions almost every year, if not every (I didn't look at the history, but would be surprised if rotation in any given year didn't have at least one of aforementioned districts sending three teams to regions). This provides more opportunity for more teams from the "north" to make it to state... You complain about who you face in regions and you didn't make it out of regions because you faced "cities" teams, but then you want to go to state and face theoretically stronger teams at the expense of a team you couldn't beat??? How does that make any sense?

Let's take a closer look at BA

North Region
Three teams from D11 and Three from D12. Two from D2 - Two teams from D2 advanced

West Region
Three teams from D10, Five from D15 and D16. Alexandria and EGF advance, none of the three "cites" team won first game and none advance past Sunday AM elimination game. Two "northern" teams advance to state.

Under existing format 11 teams qualify for regions. If created a true northern region, 8 would have qualified.

Appears to me, just by luck of the draw you faced some teams that ended up on top when playing on the ice. Every year there are regions that on paper are tougher then others based upon rotation of districts.

Don't get me wrong, I do like the AA format that automatically sends 2 "northern" teams to state, but AA has many fewer teams to begin with. Does it make sense to not qualify up to four teams in any given year at the expense of having a truely northern region??? My opinion is no.

Do you have a better solution?

[ogelthorpe]

District Team* Geographic Region MN Reg Attended Regions
2 Highland Metro North x
2 Mahtomedi Metro North
2 Mounds View Metro North
2 Stillwater Metro North
2 Tartan Metro North x
2 WBL Metro North
3 Crow River Metro South x
3 Hopkins Metro South
3 Minneapolis Metro South
3 Mound/WestonkaMetro South
3 North Metro Metro South
3 Orono Metro South x
3 Osseo/MG Metro South
3 St. Louis Park Metro South
3 Wayzata Metro South x
4 Luverne South South x
4 Marshall South South x
4 New Ulm South South
5 Hutch Central/West South x
5 Litch/Dassel/CokCentral/West South x
5 Sartell Central/West South x
5 Sauk Rapids Central/West South
6 Bloomington KenMetro East
6 Chaska/Chan Metro East
6 Eden Prairie Metro East
6 Edina Metro East x
6 Minnetonka Metro East
6 New Prague Metro East
6 Prior Lake Metro East x
6 Shakopee Metro East
6 Waconia Metro East
8 Apple Valley Metro East x
8 Cottage Grove Metro East x
8 Farmington South East x
9 Albert Lea South East x
9 Austin South East
9 Dodge County South East
9 Faribault South East
9 Mankato South East x
9 Northfield South East x
9 Red Wing South East
9 Rochester South East
10 Anoka Metro West
10 Blaine Metro West x
10 Centennial Metro West
10 Chisago Lakes Metro West
10 Coon Rapids Metro West
10 Elk River Central/West West
10 Irondale Metro West x
10 Princeton Central/West West
10 Rogers Metro West x
10 Spring Lake ParkMetro West
11 Duluth Denfeld North North
11 Duluth East North North x
11 Hermantown North North x
11 Moose Lake North North
11 North Shore North North x
11 Proctor North North
12 Eveleth North North x
12 Greenway North North x
12 IF North North
12 Virginia North North x
15 Alexandria Central/West West x
15 Brainerd Central/West West
15 Detroit Lakes North West x
15 Fergus Falls Central/West West
15 Little Falls Central/West West
15 Moorhead North West x
16 Crookston North West
16 EGF North West x
16 TRF North West
16 Warroad North West x

Teams
North 16 22%
Central/West 10 14%
Metro 34 47%
South 12 17%
Total 72

Qualifiers to Region
North 10 31%
Central/West 4 13%
Metro 12 38%
South 6 19%
Total 32

Seems to me the Metro should be complaining, not the north. They got fewer teams in then the should have, if your point is to have everything "fair". I actually like the rotating regions, get to see different teams then you do during the regular season.

*Bantam A Teams Only

[MWS coach]

thanks for the stats oge,

20 teams in Districts 11,12,15,16

11 Qualify

Those poor teams from D12 4 teams and three qualify. D11 six teams and three qualify. Sorry you have to face teams from the metro, but D2 sent two teams up out of 6 and just beat you. Like I said earlier, I do really like seeing northern teams make it to state, but opportunity to make it is already favoring north. 6 teams had the opportunity to make state. None of them accomplished that on the ice. The four sitting home with no opportunity to at least play should be those upset with the brackets, not sour grapes that you had to face so and so and they are from the mighty metro. Send them to state to go 0-2 BBQ while others don't even get the opportunity?

[greybeard58]

This region format of rotating Districts has been in place for approximately 9 or 10 years. Before that you had 2 maroon region 1 gold region and 1 silver region, and before the silver region came into play the gold region consisted of Districts 4,5,11,12 or IR as it was called,15 and 16 so Albert could drive to Warroad and vice versa. One year 4 and 5 played in the maroon and 2 and 10 played in the gold region.
Over the years D10 has been in the West, East or North. 15 and 16 have been in North or West,and 11has been in either the north or east only 12 in the north has stayed in the north.
Please do not bring up the driving distance since too many enjoy driving great distances for an invitational tournament and to get the chance to play in a Mn Hockey Regional with State tournament berths at stake and then complain about the distance give me a break.

[Deck Slide]

Ya and I am pissed the "South" region for PW AA, A, and B was in St.Cloud... St.Cloud isn't south!! ha...

[ShakestheClown]

MN Hockey would do best to just do away with the North, South, East, and West designators and go with something similar to what the girls do and assign random names to the regions.

Giving the regional tournament geographical names really is a joke, since the placements aren't necessarily geographical to begin with.

[Chaz Barknarkles]

As a coach of a district 2 team that went north for regions, I understand how the folks up there can be annoyed by this. But what is the harm when the results are settled on the ice? Isn't the goal to get the best teams to state? Our district had only two seeds to regions, and it was a battle just to get a spot. Some very good teams had their season end last week. I don't think getting out of districts is the same grind up north as it can be in the metro. I have a lot of respect for the northern programs, and had we lost I would have congratulated that team and wished them luck, which is exactly the way we were treated.

[observer]

Isn't the goal to get the best teams to state?

No. The goal is to get the best teams from all the different parts of the State to the State Tournament.

[This is nuts!]

Isn't the goal to get the best teams to state?

No. The goal is to get the best teams from all the different parts of the State to the State Tournament.

Senerio: Strong Metro team A beats northern team B 7-1 during the season in a sleeper. Team B makes it to state in weaker Northern region.
Team A is watching hockey at home.

Now in the State Tourney some metro team walks through Team B in the quarters while other teams are battling to move on.

Seems to me the best teams should make it, not just because your from the north. When I pay $20 to watch a youth state tourney game at any level I want to watch the best go at it..

Just my opinion..

[upnorthfan]

A couple of things. Why play the Regions then, just pick your best 8 as the metro sees it and go with that. The Peewee AA North Region was set up pretty well, with no metro teams in it as it should be. I don't care what level, youth or high school, state tournament participants should come from every area of the state. Do you always get the best 8 there, heck no, but that is the way it is. You are the best from your Region of the state and you belong there. For the person who mentioned recruiting and put Roseau in the same sentence, please refrain. Don't mix us up with anything that Warroad does.

[seek & destroy]

The problem is with the use of the word "Regionals" and N,S,E,W. At one time, that was probably correct but now, in an effort to get more of the top teams to the State tournament level, they have thrown a couple of teams in from outside the 'region'. Is this fair? Probably not but it does get more of the top teams to State. If you truly went back to a "regional" format, we would have 2 or 3 teams at State that, most years, really don't belong there and a few others that get knocked out that are near the top of the rankings and should have been there.

However, that happens most every year at the H.S. level and people have adjusted to it - it's part of hockey. Playoffs are one and done so a top team can easily be eliminated by a lessor team. Certain sections have 2 or 3 of the top ranked teams in the State in one section but only one can advance. The end result is that the State tourney (at any level) isn't the best 8 teams in the State - it is the teams that won the play in games to get there. It could be a team that is hot at the right time. It could be a goalie that had the game of his life or it could be because a top team had an off night and was eliminated. That's what makes playoff so exciting!

The addition of a second level in youth hockey at the "A" level allows 8 more teams a chance to go to State. That is probably the best solution there is but ultimately won't satisfy people either.

The only other thing would be to eliminate the "state" tourney and strictly have Regional tourneys determine a Regional champion and call it good. Ends up being kind of anti-climatic but satisfies the people who don't like metro teams moving into their region. Or we could go back to a 'strict' regional format and then have a blowout every now and then at the State tourney - either way, every year some of the top ranked teams in the State will not make the State tournament.

Other than that, people could just accept the fact that life isn't always fair and getting a subpar team to State just to say they went to State or having a top team from an area with a lot of great teams get eliminated, may not be the biggest deal in life. If a talented group of kids from a small town are so good that they make it, great! If the numbers game means that a few more teams from the metro get there, so be it - life goes on.

[This is nuts!]

A couple of things. Why play the Regions then, just pick your best 8 as the metro sees it and go with that. The Peewee AA North Region was set up pretty well, with no metro teams in it as it should be. I don't care what level, youth or high school, state tournament participants should come from every area of the state. Do you always get the best 8 there, heck no, but that is the way it is. You are the best from your Region of the state and you belong there. For the person who mentioned recruiting and put Roseau in the same sentence, please refrain. Don't mix us up with anything that Warroad does.

Am I missing something, the northern teams were able to participate and earn a spot to the State Tourney correct?

The way it is set up now the northern teams if they earn a spot in all the regions could have 3-4 teams in the state tourney.

Instead of calling the regions north south east west. Let's call them red white blue And green.. If that helps...

[PuckRanger]

Isn't the goal to get the best teams to state?

No. The goal is to get the best teams from all the different parts of the State to the State Tournament.

I agree. If you truly want to grow the sport in ALL areas of the state, you need ALL areas of the state involved. It is a "State" tournament and to me that means the entire state has representatives.

Here are this year's participants on a map... There are a total of 5 outstate communities participating in state tournaments out of 32 possible spots. This is not the best thing to grow outstate hockey. The Peewee B map is particularly troubling considering the high number of outstate teams at this level.

[bestgameever]

Everyone IS involved and some teams lost. Funny thing is that these are double elim district and regional tournaments... So plenty of opportunity for EVERYONE.

[PuckRanger]

Everyone IS involved and some teams lost. Funny thing is that these are double elim district and regional tournaments... So plenty of opportunity for EVERYONE.

Nope. You're comparing Districts and "Regions" to a state tournament. Being involved in "Regions" is not the same as being involved in a state tournament. Most of the more successful programs outstate have teams in "Regions" on a yearly basis.

[bestgameever]

Everyone IS involved and some teams lost. Funny thing is that these are double elim district and regional tournaments... So plenty of opportunity for EVERYONE.

Nope. You're comparing Districts and "Regions" to a state tournament. Being involved in "Regions" is not the same as being involved in a state tournament. Most of the more successful programs outstate have teams in "Regions" on a yearly basis.

Yes... 8 teams make it to state on merit. More are given the opportunity to get there... Not all make it. You need to EARN it!

[PuckRanger]

Everyone IS involved and some teams lost. Funny thing is that these are double elim district and regional tournaments... So plenty of opportunity for EVERYONE.

Nope. You're comparing Districts and "Regions" to a state tournament. Being involved in "Regions" is not the same as being involved in a state tournament. Most of the more successful programs outstate have teams in "Regions" on a yearly basis.

Yes... 8 teams make it to state on merit. More are given the opportunity to get there... Not all make it. You need to EARN it!

I just don't agree with that if you want to grow the game and keep it alive and healthy outside the metro area. Play those North/South games at the state tournament, not regions. There are usually enough good teams in most years that those outstate teams would have to earn their way in just the same with maybe the exception of the first game or two of districts. Nobody is getting a free pass. There is a very significant boost in numbers in these smaller outstate programs when teams qualify for state tournaments.