Officating at the 2014 AA Boys Tournament

[Club Level]

Again the Greatest Venue, the Greatest Teams , the Greatest Players.
Again we have to suffer with the REFEREES & LINESMAN refusing to participate in the the game.
All year long our players play in games that have strict rules.
We come to the big show and all of the players have to learn a whole new set of rules. Unfortunately the rules are fluid. Changing sometimes as fast as the clock.
We are blessed with the best players and referees anywhere. To force the players to play with out rules is absurd.
Minnesota Hockey fans should cry out. No more craziness.
We will play hockey by the rules.
A slash will be a slash.
A trip will be a trip.
and most of all a check from behind.....
will result in a game disqualification.
We never want to paralyze another player.
Keeping the game under control protects the boys and will make a better game.
Power plays are part of the game.
REWARD the teams that know how to play clean hockey.
The rules will take care of the goons.
The AA final officiating was an embarrassment
to all hockey fans.
The A final should be the standard to strive for.
Please Speak out.
Put an end to Ridiculous Hockey Officiating.

[Cadets16]

The A final should be the standard to strive for.

No. Just no. How many times were bogus calls made in that game? They were practically trying to give the game to Hermantown...

[Club Level]

Yes, but the A game turned and the penalties did even out. Playing with no calls means playing with no control. We want the game to played at a high level, but we want to be fair to the players. But most of all we want to have a great hockey game.
There is no place for letting the players police the game.
With Cheap shots after the whistle. Numerous Slashes with intent to injure away from the play. This is not about any one team. It is about Officiating and the Mshsl allowing games to get out of hand.

[nahc]

Club Level: Could not agree more. An action that results in a penalty the first game of the season is a penalty in the State playoffs. Its ridciulous the muggings that were taking place in the games. "Purists" claim "let the players decide the game not the officials". Each penalty that is NOT called indeed decides the game. Swallowing the whistle is a great reason to not have these officials call any more post-season games.

[BlueLineSpecial]

I can't say for certain if the officiating was adequate, awesome or atrocious. But the flow of several tourney games was affected by officiating. I don't ever recall a state tourney where this many penalties were called. At the same time I thought many were missed. It felt as though the refs were the show and not the players. That's never a good thing

[RRubberbeeskit]

The A final should be the standard to strive for.

No. Just no. How many times were bogus calls made in that game? They were practically trying to give the game to Hermantown...

"Cadets 16": I could not agree with you more. I thought the Class A final game officiating was horrible. The officials certainly made everyone in attendance aware that they were going to control the outcome right from the start
Fortunately EGF took care of the officiating problem and outcome themselves.
I still have to question making a tripping call and an embellishment call at the same time in the Eagan semi final game.

[Immigrant Fan]

I too thought the officiating was terrible. The no-calls were frustrating - especially the refusal to call cross checks and checking from behind. I understand putting the whistle away on questionable calls, but just putting the whistle away changes the game.

Oh, by the way, could someone clarify for me, is holding the opponent's stick for extended periods of time (no crude jokes please!) a penalty? There were games where some players were keeping sticks under their arms like someone walking inside from getting the morning newspaper - for those who remember getting their news that way.

[Ref22]

Again the Greatest Venue, the Greatest Teams , the Greatest Players.
Again we have to suffer with the REFEREES & LINESMAN refusing to participate in the the game.
All year long our players play in games that have strict rules.
We come to the big show and all of the players have to learn a whole new set of rules. Unfortunately the rules are fluid. Changing sometimes as fast as the clock.
We are blessed with the best players and referees anywhere. To force the players to play with out rules is absurd.
Minnesota Hockey fans should cry out. No more craziness.
We will play hockey by the rules.
A slash will be a slash.
A trip will be a trip.
and most of all a check from behind.....
will result in a game disqualification.
We never want to paralyze another player.
Keeping the game under control protects the boys and will make a better game.
Power plays are part of the game.
REWARD the teams that know how to play clean hockey.
The rules will take care of the goons.
The AA final officiating was an embarrassment
to all hockey fans.
The A final should be the standard to strive for.
Please Speak out.
Put an end to Ridiculous Hockey Officiating.

good lord.

[Newguy_10]

Again the Greatest Venue, the Greatest Teams , the Greatest Players.
Again we have to suffer with the REFEREES & LINESMAN refusing to participate in the the game.
All year long our players play in games that have strict rules.
We come to the big show and all of the players have to learn a whole new set of rules. Unfortunately the rules are fluid. Changing sometimes as fast as the clock.
We are blessed with the best players and referees anywhere. To force the players to play with out rules is absurd.
Minnesota Hockey fans should cry out. No more craziness.
We will play hockey by the rules.
A slash will be a slash.
A trip will be a trip.
and most of all a check from behind.....
will result in a game disqualification.
We never want to paralyze another player.
Keeping the game under control protects the boys and will make a better game.
Power plays are part of the game.
REWARD the teams that know how to play clean hockey.
The rules will take care of the goons.
The AA final officiating was an embarrassment
to all hockey fans.
The A final should be the standard to strive for.
Please Speak out.
Put an end to Ridiculous Hockey Officiating.

good lord.

Everyone's always going to complain about reffing. Here's my question did they have a serious impact on the outcome of any of the games? I don't believe so. Calling penalties in overtime is a joke in my opinion like in the EP and LN game but they both got there chance and one team made it count. Correct me if I am wrong but this tournament is all about the experience for the kids and any kid I have ever talked to would much rather have the whistles put away and let the teams battle it out 5 on 5 instead of slowing the pace of the game down with power plays and penalty kills, also creating and destroying momentum. Let the boys do it themselves.

Now having said that all in my opinion I believe the refs called a lot of the petty penalties and missed quite a few cheap shots that need to be called to protect the players

[Zamman]

Quit complaining and lace them up and become a ref if you know more than these guys....that is all.

[Club Level]

I know it is hard to remain objective.
This is not a personal attack on referee's.
This is a discussion on officiating the State Hockey Tournament.

Since it seems we have referee's on board.
Do referee's take it upon themselves to call the games loosely, and if they
do, why?
Or
Does the MSHSL tell the referee's to call the game loosely.

This is a pretty simple question to an obvious difference in officiating from the
regular season and the State Tourney.

The one standard answer you hear over and over is that the referee's do not want affect the out come of the game. Of course we all know that every call, whistle, goal, non call affect the game. This excuse does not hold a candle to the simplest rule to follow. Call the game according to the rule book.

As a player, one would expect that what was a penalty in the first game would be a penalty in the last game.

The MSHSL makes and announcement before every game that this
is more that sports, it is an educational experience.

I agree with this.

The first education when the games are officiated loosely.
The world is not fair.
No one owes me anything.
Watch your back.
Be ready for a slash attack to injure.

Another educational scenario if the games were called as the regular season.
I have been rewarded for clean hockey.
I know that my decision hurt my team.
I feel safe because I do not expect someone to blast me from the back into the boards.
I am proud of our teams play.

OK now take a breath. This is about the act of officiating and is not pointed at any one official or game. It is just an observation.
We know every ones goals are the same in the State of Hockey.
Excellence. Team Play, Pride and Fun.

[inthestands]

Unlike teams that win their way into the tourney, officials are rated all season long by the coaches, their own associations and the MSHSL upper echelon.

Once at the tourney, the pairing of officials will combine members of different officiating associations together. Some may have not worked together, and may have seen slightly different management instruction through out the regular season.

MSHSL directs how they want officials working. As with anything, the same directions to 16 different people can be taken 16 different ways.

Not agreeing or disagreeing about the quality of work done at all.

As long as we have "people" officiating hockey games, we will have controversy. Just listen in the stands at any MSHSL or youth regular season game.. It's very rare when the home and opposing fans agree with calls made on the ice.

I don't see things moving in the right direction for the future, unless something is implemented to help support the younger start up officials to succeed. Currently over 50% of new officials quit after the first year, and more in the next 2 seasons. First year kids get few games, and need to learn the ropes. They have to put in a lot of time for seminars, tests and pay for a uniform. The return on investment is poor, and they take a lot of abuse from a mostly uneducated group of people.

Then there's the political side of making your way to the bigger games.. Doing a good job during the season, knowing the right people and being in the right association. Those are just a few of the things I've heard about..

BTW, the rule book is a set of guidelines, not a black and white letter of the law.. A trip isn't always a trip. A slash ins't always a slash. Each play is interpreted by each on ice official during each play. No two plays are the same, and viewing something ice level is much different than where we see things from the stands.

If you don't believe that, you need to throw on a black and white striped jersey and make your way onto the ice for a game so you have first hand experience. It's always best to have that if you're going to access how to make improvements.

That's my most objective response..

[MNHockeyFan]

If you don't believe that, you need to throw on a black and white striped jersey and make your way onto the ice for a game so you have first hand experience.

Well you know that the people who complain the loudest are the ones least likely to try it themselves!

[Puckguy19]

Yes, but the A game turned and the penalties did even out. Playing with no calls means playing with no control. We want the game to played at a high level, but we want to be fair to the players. But most of all we want to have a great hockey game.
There is no place for letting the players police the game.
With Cheap shots after the whistle. Numerous Slashes with intent to injure away from the play. This is not about any one team. It is about Officiating and the Mshsl allowing games to get out of hand.

There is the first issue, thinking that penalties have to even out. Using your hypothesis that we should reward those teams that play within the rules, which I agree should be the basic standard, does not always equate to an even assessment of infractions. In fact, it probably is exactly the opposite of what should be expected. If a team (EGF) is faster, stronger, and better with the puck, chances are the opponent (Hermantown) will draw more penalties. Evening out infractions called is the lazy way out.

[Club Level]

No one said penalties have to even out.
Wow!
I did say in this game they did even out. But I thought that that was a fair statement since 4 consecutive penalties in the first period on EGF before one Hermantown penalty.
I should have said something else.

Again this is not an attack on officials. I am thankful for all officials and respect the hard decisions they have to make.

It is about hockey and attitude. I think I may have been wrong to bring this discussion up.
I would like to see the game called in a way that makes Minnesota Hockey Proud!
Maybe we are there.

[inthestands]

No one said penalties have to even out.
Wow!
I did say in this game they did even out. But I thought that that was a fair statement since 4 consecutive penalties in the first period on EGF before one Hermantown penalty.
I should have said something else.

Again this is not an attack on officials. I am thankful for all officials and respect the hard decisions they have to make.

It is about hockey and attitude. I think I may have been wrong to bring this discussion up.
I would like to see the game called in a way that makes Minnesota Hockey Proud!
Maybe we are there.

It's good to see posts like yours, along with the wide array of responses.

As you can see, it's impossible for one persons thoughts on a situation to be read the same across the board, by different people.

This is why you can't have a trip be called a trip every time.. Different people understand different situations differently.. Those situations are magnified by personal attachments to those situations.

I'm not putting you or your view down one bit. This thread should help you understand why things can't happen as you mentioned in your oringinal post.

[HShockeywatcher]

Unlike teams that win their way into the tourney, officials are rated all season long by the coaches, their own associations and the MSHSL upper echelon.

This is part of the issue in both hockey and other sports. Coaches, who want the game called not by the rules, are rating officials who want to call it by the rules. The ones "doing it right" end up getting rated lower.

I don't know how you change what's happening, but I've heard refs complain about this first hand in more than one different sport.

[Winter is Coming]

It is tough. Not only between coaches but between regions as well. Go to the range and watch a game and go down to the cities and watch a game. The range folks call cities hockey girls hockey based on how it is played. There has to be some sort of long running method to score these refs to keep them consistant and within the rules.

How about getting USHL refs or NAHL refs or somebody like that? Maybe what needs to happen is to bring in refs from the college ranks or something like that. Sure it would cost a little bit more (maybe a lot more who knows) but the games would be consistent and called within the rules. It would also get rid of those biases that are developed over the season and over the years as the current high school refs continue to ref the same teams over and over.

Just a thought.

[Puckguy19]

No one said penalties have to even out.
Wow!
I did say in this game they did even out. But I thought that that was a fair statement since 4 consecutive penalties in the first period on EGF before one Hermantown penalty.
I should have said something else.

Again this is not an attack on officials. I am thankful for all officials and respect the hard decisions they have to make.

It is about hockey and attitude. I think I may have been wrong to bring this discussion up.
I would like to see the game called in a way that makes Minnesota Hockey Proud!
Maybe we are there.

When you refer to Minnesota Hockey, is that all of us collectively, or the group that oversees youth hockey in Minnesota. Never have been a fan of their over-officiating.

[Club Level]

The Minnesota Hockey Community is all of us collectively. Start with the players who give their all. Then the coaches who sacrifice family and time for these players, then the families who follow and support their children, and the fans who add the experience of appreciation for the players. In our tournament, our Minnesota Hockey Community gives each player the unique experience to play in a world class venue and a world class audience. Hats of to all off us.

[almostashappy]

It is tough. Not only between coaches but between regions as well. Go to the range and watch a game and go down to the cities and watch a game. The range folks call cities hockey girls hockey based on how it is played. There has to be some sort of long running method to score these refs to keep them consistant and within the rules.

"Cities hockey" is played based on how it is refereed. Kids and coaches can't make their games more "Up North manly" by imposing a physical style of play onto the guys calling the penalties...much the opposite. It's the refs who dictate style of play, and they get their marching orders from the districts (at youth level) and their local referee associations (at high school level).

And that there are large differences in philosophies when it comes to what to call and what to allow is seen by the wide differences within the metro area itself....in youth hockey, year after year District 6 referees (Southwest Metro, including EP, Edina, Tonka, Burnsville) are notoriously quicker to call penalties than metro refs in neighboring Districts. Good thing or bad thing? You can debate what level of physicality is appropriate at the different levels, but you can't debate that the levels are set by the stripes, rather than the players themselves.

I don't mind the regional differences in refereeing, so long as the refs are consistent in their calls (especially within a game). Good coaches and good teams are smart enough to quickly realize how tight the game's being called, and flexible enough (and smart enough) to adapt, and tailor their games to the situation that's presented. And good teams, coaches, and parents are mature enough not to whine when they aren't able to get the refs to call the game the way they're used to playing it.

[Cootslayer]

If I understand the original post, I agree with it.

For this to change, it is going to take a kid getting really hurt at the Tourney on TV.

I was at the TG/Maht section final and a TG kid was thrown out of the game for a hit that I saw 2 or 3 times in every game at the X this year.

To simply dismiss this at the usual attack on refs is ridiculous.

You can't tell me that if the AA final had been called close and called like a regular season game that it would have gotten out of control as it did. I still say shame on the LN coaches for not attempting to reel in your kids.

I have a good friend that is a ref and most refs will agree with you in private that this double standard is a joke. They don't dare speak up.

Every fall now these guys go through this whole process telling them to call the games with a fine tooth comb. Then the Tourney starts and it all goes out the window. This creates a situation where these guys are attacked all year as being ticky-tacky, as if it is the refs that decided to personally call it close.

I personally think the ticky-tacky calling is turning the game into ringette.
That said, pick a way that you want the game played and stick with it.

[Winter is Coming]

It is tough. Not only between coaches but between regions as well. Go to the range and watch a game and go down to the cities and watch a game. The range folks call cities hockey girls hockey based on how it is played. There has to be some sort of long running method to score these refs to keep them consistant and within the rules.

"Cities hockey" is played based on how it is refereed. Kids and coaches can't make their games more "Up North manly" by imposing a physical style of play onto the guys calling the penalties...much the opposite. It's the refs who dictate style of play, and they get their marching orders from the districts (at youth level) and their local referee associations (at high school level).

And that there are large differences in philosophies when it comes to what to call and what to allow is seen by the wide differences within the metro area itself....in youth hockey, year after year District 6 referees (Southwest Metro, including EP, Edina, Tonka, Burnsville) are notoriously quicker to call penalties than metro refs in neighboring Districts. Good thing or bad thing? You can debate what level of physicality is appropriate at the different levels, but you can't debate that the levels are set by the stripes, rather than the players themselves.

I don't mind the regional differences in refereeing, so long as the refs are consistent in their calls (especially within a game). Good coaches and good teams are smart enough to quickly realize how tight the game's being called, and flexible enough (and smart enough) to adapt, and tailor their games to the situation that's presented. And good teams, coaches, and parents are mature enough not to whine when they aren't able to get the refs to call the game the way they're used to playing it.

It is not manlyness or lack thereof. It is the consistancy that is the issue. It is not right that D6 can tell their refs to be superpicky and for another District to tell their refs that as long as there is not blood or broken bones involved then it is not a foul. MNHockey at both the Youth and High School levels has to work to become more uniform. The object here is not to figure out who is smarter and is able to decipher the reffing rubric quicker as part of the game. It is a hockey game so who passes better, shoots better and who has the best goalie is the question. These kids need to know going in that a trip is a trip and a checking from behind is a checking from behind wheather you are in Edina or I-Falls. The game needs to be called the same across the board in order to be fair. Also that arguement that it was a BS call for an overtime is wrong. A penalty is a penalty at 1 min into the 1st period or at 1 min into the 3rd OT period and should be called. It also does not matter if it is the first game of the year or the last AA game of the year, rules are rules and should be followed. If not you get that LN/Edina game that spirals out of control and turns into a circus.

Your post shows an attitude that is wrong. You are willing to bend rules and have kids behave differently under the same circumstance in a different location. Is it OK to sucker punch a kid from behind in a bowling alley in I-Falls but not in Edina? OK to have kids in Edina learn to read and not to have kids in Gilbert learn to read? Right is right and wrong is wrong. We have a duty to these kids to teach them to play by the rules and to show them what the rules are and then to enforce them. Basically you are telling them that it is not illegal if you don't get caught and that is rough way to go through life.

[inthestands]

Smart coaches and players will adjust their play to the game calling. Smart officials adjust their game calling to the way it's being played.

Ever since I can remember, the state tournament has been called differently than regular season.

If players and coaches don't like that, maybe it's time for the system to change. Being evaluated by the coaches, picked by the Old Guard of the MSHSL that has association preference and also sets the direction for tournament officiating.

How do the participants in the tournament feel about it? Those are the opinions that have the most value, since they are playing the games. Not watching from the stands or their television.

It's the same old argument over again. Consistency is great, but who measures that? You, me, the coaches, the players, the evaluators, the fans, the zamboni driver? Whomever you pick, someone else will go a different direction.

There will never be a black and white rule on tripping, slashing, roughing and so on as long as we have people officiating hockey games. Give the players and coaches some credit to figure things out on the fly...

[almostashappy]

Your post shows an attitude that is wrong. You are willing to bend rules and have kids behave differently under the same circumstance in a different location. Is it OK to sucker punch a kid from behind in a bowling alley in I-Falls but not in Edina? OK to have kids in Edina learn to read and not to have kids in Gilbert learn to read? Right is right and wrong is wrong. We have a duty to these kids to teach them to play by the rules and to show them what the rules are and then to enforce them. Basically you are telling them that it is not illegal if you don't get caught and that is rough way to go through life.

Nice job putting words in my mouth.

My post shows a realistic attitude, and your strawman examples are over the top silly.

Should the State Patrol issue speeding tickets to each and every driver who is going 1 mile over the speed limit? After all, under is under and over is over.

My attitude isn't wrong, it's realistic. In baseball, the strike zone is set in stone as a "law" and the guys calling balls and strikes should base their calls on the law. But the umps are human making split-second calls, and some umps have a wider strike zone than others. Quicker a batter figures out whether the ump is giving the pitcher the corners, the better. And the league doesn't fire every umpire who fails to call them exactly as hindsight video slo-mo replay says they should be called. Now, does the fact that MLB allows a small amount of variance in strike zones means that an ump can get away with calling a pitch over the batter's head a strike? Of course not...no more than the driver going 98 in a 65 can expect to cruise through a speed trap so long as the flow of traffic is going 70.