Top 75 High School programs of all time--revisited

Post by **east hockey** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:06 pm

This is an update to the first analysis I did in March 2011. That thread can still be found at http://www.ushsho.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=26314

Point values have been changed for the purpose of this study (don't worry, folks, the new values actually hurt Duluth East

) Winning semifinal and championship games at State now carries a heavier weight relative to other accomplishments. In the previous study, there wasn't much difference between winning a quarterfinal game at state versus winning a semifinal game at state versus winning a championship game at state. That has been corrected--I'm not sure why I didn't notice that before. Studying how Hermantown was rated higher than St. Thomas Academy (using the old system) revealed the flaw in the formula. I think the new one is more realistic. Of course, fans of teams hurt by the new formula will disagree.

Each team's rank from the 2011 study is also included.

This analysis is “points based”; the higher you finish in a particular year, the more points you get for that year.

Teams which have had programs for a long time obviously will have an advantage over newer teams.

Class A teams are included, rewarded with much lower point levels than Class AA teams. I toyed with the idea of leaving out Class A tournament results totally, but decided that ignoring their efforts was not fair to those who had played on these teams. After all, playing in Class A wasn’t the students’ decision. It was their school administrators or coaches. Class A is a “good fit” for the vast majority of those schools.

Only results from MSHSL-sanctioned state tournaments are considered.

Results from the Tier II tournament in 1992-93 are not considered either, because the teams in that tournament were "leftover" after the top eight teams were seeded in each section (those which ended up in the Tier I tournament).

The highest point totals are awarded for teams in the State Tournament from 1975-1991, followed by 1992-2014, 1961-74, 1951-60 and 1945-50. A strong enough argument was made for it being tougher to make state during 1975-91 (prior to the two-class tournament) that these years carry a slightly heavier weight than more recent results.

What individual players on these teams did during and after their high school years is not considered.

I’ll be posting teams in the Top 75 as I have time to do the write-ups on these teams with the goal of being done within the next few weeks.

Lee

Post by **east hockey** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:16 pm

First, here are the teams which made the Top 75 three years ago but didn't this time:

#75 Tartan--fell to #78
#72 St. Louis Park--fell to #76
#71 Alexandria--fell to #77

Also, Edina and Edina East have been split up. They were combined three years ago for reasons I don't exactly recall; the MSHSL considers them to be separate teams for purposes of compiled records.

Lee

Post by **east hockey** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:05 am

I'm going to Sticky this topic while I'm updating it. Afterwards, it can live or die on the main page as viewers wish.

Lee

Post by **east hockey** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:23 pm

#75: St. Paul Humboldt

15.58 pts
--0 state titles
--2 state tournaments
--2011 ranking: #67

Humboldt drops eight spots and will certainly drop off the list when it's next run, due to their no longer having a program. They had a brief two-year burst of semi-glory in 1952 and 1953, winning a consolation title in '53. They had 19 consecutive losing seasons before disbanding after the 1994-95 season.

Post by **east hockey** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:30 pm

#74: Osseo

16.40 pts
--0 state titles
--1 state tournament
--2011 ranking: #73

Osseo's program dates back to at least 1958; their only appearance at State was in 1994, winning the consolation semi-finals before losing to White Bear Lake in the consolation finals. They are 1-9 in section finals and 10-14 in section semifinals.

Lee

Post by **east hockey** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:36 pm

#73: Woodbury

16.60 pts
--0 state titles
--2 state tournaments
--2011 ranking: #66

How much the opening of East Ridge has hurt Woodbury may be open to debate, but Woodbury has not gone past the first round of Section 3AA in the last three seasons. Prior to that, they had back-to-back State Tournament trips in 2007 & 2008, winning the consolation title in 2008. Woodbury's first section final was in 2006; they are 2-2 in section finals, 4-5 in section semifinals.

Post by **east hockey** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:42 pm

#72: Eastview

17.00 pts
--0 state titles
--2 state tournaments
--2011 ranking: #74

Eastview has been in business for 17 years, with winning seasons in nearly half of those seasons. They have a consolation title at State in 2001, has compiled a 2-2 section finals record, and a 4-6 section semifinals record.

cake83 · Post by **cake83** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 5:07 pm

east hockey wrote:First, here are the teams which made the Top 75 three years ago but didn't this time:

#75 Tartan--fell to #78
#72 St. Louis Park--fell to #76
#71 Alexandria--fell to #77

Also, Edina and Edina East have been split up. They were combined three years ago for reasons I don't exactly recall; the MSHSL considers them to be separate teams for purposes of compiled records.

Lee

I've always been curious about this and I respect everyone's opinions on here so please weigh in...

I see both arguments for counting or not counting the time that the school was split, but when it went to Edina East, they remained the Hornets, they had the same coach, skated the same arena, and drew skaters from the same city/community. None of those elements changed when they merged back into one school either. Edina East was also also the original High School building so the only changes were adding the word "east" and shrinking the class size. Why does the MSHSL not recognize Edina East as a part of the Edina Hornets records?

Post by **east hockey** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:06 pm

cake83 wrote:
east hockey wrote:First, here are the teams which made the Top 75 three years ago but didn't this time:

#75 Tartan--fell to #78
#72 St. Louis Park--fell to #76
#71 Alexandria--fell to #77

Also, Edina and Edina East have been split up. They were combined three years ago for reasons I don't exactly recall; the MSHSL considers them to be separate teams for purposes of compiled records.

Lee
I've always been curious about this and I respect everyone's opinions on here so please weigh in...

I see both arguments for counting or not counting the time that the school was split, but when it went to Edina East, they remained the Hornets, they had the same coach, skated the same arena, and drew skaters from the same city/community. None of those elements changed when they merged back into one school either. Edina East was also also the original High School building so the only changes were adding the word "east" and shrinking the class size. Why does the MSHSL not recognize Edina East as a part of the Edina Hornets records?

I had basically the same thoughts on this you did--in the end, I deferred to how the State League sees it. And, as you asked, why? It really doesn't make much sense.

Lee

Cadets16 · Post by **Cadets16** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:19 pm

Dillon and Dillon East

Anyway, love what you're doing. At the end, will you include a final post without the descriptions, but just the rankings? Maybe expand to 100 in just a list?

Post by **east hockey** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:23 pm

Cadets16 wrote:Dillon and Dillon East

Anyway, love what you're doing. At the end, will you include a final post without the descriptions, but just the rankings? Maybe expand to 100 in just a list?

I hadn't thought of that, but it would be pretty easy to do. I can go all the way down to #177 (teams which have points).

Lee

Post by **east hockey** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:00 pm

#71: Little Falls

17.05 pts
--0 state titles
--6 state tournaments (Class A)
--2011 ranking: Not ranked

The creation of a two-class system gave certain teams a chance to play in St. Paul in March. Little Falls is one of those teams, and has taken advantage of being in Class A six times, including five consecutive trips from 2005 to 2009, garnering a third, a fourth, and a consolation title in the process. They are 6-5 in section finals, 11-5 in section semifinals.

Post by **east hockey** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:01 pm

#70: Blake

17.05 pts
--0 state titles
--5 state tournaments (Class A)
--2011 ranking: #70

Ten private schools made the Top 75, and Blake is the first of these schools. Prior to the two-class system, Blake had a little success, getting to two section finals, but in Class A, they have made State five times, with their best finish being fourth place in 1999. Their section play in Class A includes a 5-8 mark in section finals, and 13-6 in section semifinals.

goldy313 · Post by **goldy313** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:49 pm

Rochester High School became Rochester John Marshall around 1958, both were the "Rockets", Mayo didn't open up until 1965 giving Richester 2 public high schools. The MSHSL considers Rochester High and Rochester John Marshall seperate schools. I guess for consistency it has to be that way because the reverse would be who would get credit for Bloomington High and Bloomington Lincoln, Jefferson or Kennedy? Does Roseville get credit for Alexander Ramsey and Kellogg High?

Post by **east hockey** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:24 am

#69: Orono

18.35 pts
--0 state titles
--6 state tournaments (Class A)
--2011 ranking: #68

Orono is another beneficiary of the two-class system, having only made it to their one-class section semifinal once (1983). They made it to state in both years of the Tier I/Tier II tournament, but Tier II participation is not considered in this study. In the state Class A tournament, they’ve earned one runner-up, one third place, and one consolation title. And once they get to their section finals, they’ve done very well, going 8-1 in their Class A section finals.

Post by **east hockey** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:25 am

#68: Lakeville South

18.70 pts
--0 state titles
--2 state tournaments
--2011 ranking: Not ranked

Since the split of Lakeville into North and South, South has made two trips to State, their best result being a 3rd place finish in 2012. They are 2-3 in section finals, 5-2 in section semifinals.

Post by **east hockey** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:25 am

Goldy, ironic you mentioned Bloomington....

#67: Bloomington

19.75 pts
--0 state titles
--3 state tournaments
--2011 ranking: #65

Bloomington had three state tournament appearances between 1960-65, culminating in a runner-up finish in 1965 despite having a .500 record.

Post by **east hockey** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:26 am

#66: Rochester Century

22.60 pts
--0 state titles
--3 state tournaments
--2011 ranking: #59

Century began play in the 1998-99 season; it took them three years to advance to their section finals, and another four to make the state Class AA tournament. Their finest moment came in the 2007 state tournament when they captured the third place hardware after a huge upset of Hill-Murray in the quarterfinals. From a “points” standpoint, they’ve been the second best Rochester school since 2000.

Post by **karl(east)** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:13 pm

goldy313 wrote:Rochester High School became Rochester John Marshall around 1958, both were the "Rockets", Mayo didn't open up until 1965 giving Richester 2 public high schools. The MSHSL considers Rochester High and Rochester John Marshall seperate schools. I guess for consistency it has to be that way because the reverse would be who would get credit for Bloomington High and Bloomington Lincoln, Jefferson or Kennedy? Does Roseville get credit for Alexander Ramsey and Kellogg High?

Don't think so. It looks like the thing that matters is the building name, not its location or the mascot. Edina East is separate from Edina despite the same building and mascot; Duluth East remains Duluth East despite a new building in a new location and the closure of Duluth Central. Grand Rapids and Burnsville change mascots, but they keep the history of everything else. I think all of that is justifiable.

I'd also be curious about how they handle co-ops. Hibbing-Chisholm retains Hibbing's history, even though they've added Chisholm, but Minneapolis doesn't inherit the history of all the Minneapolis schools. I'm guessing it has something to do with who hosts the co-op?

cake83 · Post by **cake83** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:32 pm

goldy313 wrote:Rochester High School became Rochester John Marshall around 1958, both were the "Rockets", Mayo didn't open up until 1965 giving Richester 2 public high schools. The MSHSL considers Rochester High and Rochester John Marshall seperate schools. I guess for consistency it has to be that way because the reverse would be who would get credit for Bloomington High and Bloomington Lincoln, Jefferson or Kennedy? Does Roseville get credit for Alexander Ramsey and Kellogg High?

The Bloomington schools wouldn't be an equal comparison since Lincoln, Kennedy, and Jefferson were all open at the same time and functioned as completely different schools. It wouldn't make sense to give Lincoln's accomplishments to either of the other schools.

In the case of Edina East, it was merely a naming convention (adding the word East to differentiate from a new school opening in the area). In fact, Lincoln High School was previously named Bloomington High School until 1965 when it was renamed due to the opening of Kennedy High School. That was a case where the opening of a second school in the city caused them to rename the first yet I don't think people feel the need to recognize them as different schools. The name change was seamless, instantaneous, and the school underwent no other change.

I would understand treating Edina West as the separate entity since it was the "new" school that opened and very much had it's own identity (mascot, coaching, admin, etc...). It just seems odd that the Edina Hornets records contains an asterisk when the Edina Hornets themselves have such a clear, traceable history. To me it's the team, coaching, and students that matter more when tracking their athletic accomplishments, rather than the signage in front of the building.

Post by **east hockey** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:54 pm

#65: Williams

23.40 pts
--0 state titles
--3 state tournaments
--2011 ranking: #61

When I first did this study in 2011, I had no idea what Williams was. What we do know is that they had two runner-up finishes at State (1949 & 1950) and their program either dissolved or was absorbed in the mid-to-late 60's.

Post by **east hockey** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:55 pm

#64: Fergus Falls

23.70 pts
--0 state titles
--7 state tournaments (Class A)
--2011 ranking: #62

The Otters were a fixture in the Class A tournament for a time, getting to the Show seven straight years from 1997-2003, winning four quarterfinal games during that time but never getting to the title game. Since that run, Fergus Falls has struggled somewhat, making their section finals only twice in the past eleven seasons. They are 7-3 in Class A section finals, 10-8 in Class A section semifinals.

Post by **east hockey** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:56 pm

#63: Minneapolis South

22.88 pts
--0 state titles
--4 state tournaments
--2011 ranking: #55

South had a strong program in the early days, making it to State four times between 1950-57, with their best season being in 1956-57 when they finished 17-3 on their way to a third place finish in the state tourney. They dropped down to Class A in 1993 before being moved back up in 1997. After the 2005-06 season, they merged with the other Minneapolis schools into two teams (East and West) before all the Minneapolis schools eventually merged into one team in 2010. South finished 10th in points in the 1950's.

Post by **east hockey** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:56 pm

#62: St. Paul Washington

24.88 pts
--0 state titles
--3 state tournaments
--2011 ranking: #56

Washington was one of the “Original Eight” teams which were in the inaugural state tournament in 1945, finishing third. They advanced to two more tournaments after that, culminating in a runner-up in 1960, losing to Duluth East in the championship game. Washington (along with St. Paul Murray) closed in 1979 with most students ending up at Como Park.

Post by **east hockey** » Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:26 pm

#61: White Bear Mariner

25.50 pts
--0 state titles
--1 state tournaments
--2011 ranking: #53

Mariner had a short history, but it was a good one, topping out in 1982 when they were state tournament runners-up to Edina. They made their section finals five times in an eight-year period.