Harsh Reality of Making it to the Show

[The Exiled One]

A college degree is not a way to say that you are a success or not.

Worth noting that a bachelor degree isn't what it used to be..

College grads make nearly twice as much as non-college grads. This is just a fact backed up by a source, not an opinion about pursing a hockey career. I just thought it might add to the conversation.

[The Exiled One]

Lots of routes for sure. For those pursuing a pro hockey career, the WHL, IMO, definitely at the forefront for both achieving the goal of pro hockey and for keeping all other options open.

Thanks for stating that it's your opinion. IMO, NCAA hockey is definitely at the forefront for both achieving the goal of pro hockey and for keeping all other options open.

There we go. Different opinions.

[puckbreath]

A college degree is not a way to say that you are a success or not.

Worth noting that a bachelor degree isn't what it used to be..

College grads make nearly twice as much as non-college grads. This is just a fact backed up by a source, not an opinion about pursing a hockey career. I just thought it might add to the conversation.

And they need to, what with their college debt

[scorekeeper]

A college degree is not a way to say that you are a success or not.

Worth noting that a bachelor degree isn't what it used to be..

College grads make nearly twice as much as non-college grads. This is just a fact backed up by a source, not an opinion about pursing a hockey career. I just thought it might add to the conversation.

LOL. I like your "facts". Firstly because they are usually not facts at all, and secondly, because they are rarely relevant to the conversation.

With regards to the first,

"College graduates earn, on average, about $20,000 a year more than those who finished their educations at high school. Add that up over a 40-year working life and the total differential is about $800,000 ... But since much of that bonus is earned many years from now, subtracting out the impact of inflation means that $800,000 in future dollars is worth only about $450,000 in today's dollars."

Read more: http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-questio ... z2wRscsjIO

And as it relates this conversation, we are comparing the average college degree , NOT against the average high school degree, but in fact, against the average professional hockey salary. Not to mention, many of these kids who play Major Junior in hockey markets have no problem returning to those markets and securing pretty well paying cushy jobs.

So comparing the salary of someone with a bachelor degree to the average salary of a person with a high school degree is not the same as comparing with an average of professional hockey players and/or former Major Junior player.

Finally, Major Junior players who opt to go pro instead of college are excersicing a choice which can be made when the athlete is very mature at age 20 or 21, and has a good grasp of his options and a good idea (at least better idea) of how he wants his life to unfold, as opposed to asking a 16-18 year old to close all other doors and put all his eggs in one schools basket. I suppose if your goal is to play for School X and they offer you a scholarship then that in itself is a goal achieved.

Certainly nothing wrong with committing to a school. But for guys who's goal is a professional hockey career, there are better avenues which can be pursued all the while keeping the school option open - and actually, fully paid for.

Your points ignore the fact that the Major Junior guys who arent getting an education after junior isn't because they are suddenly pumping gas. It's because they are playing professional hockey. Your points would have been valid 20 years ago, but in this day and age with the WHL scholarship being the most succesful of it's kind and been around now a long time, for the most part, kids who don't pro are getting a college degree.

Allow me to lift up that rock you've been living under. It's 2014, LOL ;0)

[Gopher Blog]

I'm sure the WHL education package works out for some guys. But these are also guys that basically have to make a tough decision by age 20 or 21 to give up the serious pursuit of a pro career. Because they have to make a decision within about a year after leaving the WHL about whether to go to school to get use of the education package or else it disappears on them. I'm sure that is a tough call for a lot of guys (and it is a decision similarly aged kids in NCAA hockey don't have to think about). Yeah, those guys can go off and play CIS (Canadian college hockey) but that level is not nearly as good as the bulk of NCAA hockey teams.

Not to mention, if you play a certain level of minor league hockey (here or abroad), then the WHL education package goes away... and if we are honest here, the guys in the minors are hardly rolling in the dough so it's not like they are easily making up what they lose if that education package goes away.

Both situations have their cases where it is a good fit and other situations where it is not a good fit. There isn't a one size fits all approach. I am glad the vast majority of top MN kids play NCAA hockey though. I think it is in their best interests in most cases.

[BlueLineSpecial]

A college degree is not a way to say that you are a success or not.

Worth noting that a bachelor degree isn't what it used to be..

College grads make nearly twice as much as non-college grads. This is just a fact backed up by a source, not an opinion about pursing a hockey career. I just thought it might add to the conversation.

LOL. I like your "facts". Firstly because they are usually not facts at all, and secondly, because they are rarely relevant to the conversation.

With regards to the first,

"College graduates earn, on average, about $20,000 a year more than those who finished their educations at high school. Add that up over a 40-year working life and the total differential is about $800,000 ... But since much of that bonus is earned many years from now, subtracting out the impact of inflation means that $800,000 in future dollars is worth only about $450,000 in today's dollars."

Read more: http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-questio ... z2wRscsjIO

And as it relates this conversation, we are comparing the average college degree , NOT against the average high school degree, but in fact, against the average professional hockey salary. Not to mention, many of these kids who play Major Junior in hockey markets have no problem returning to those markets and securing pretty well paying cushy jobs.

So comparing the salary of someone with a bachelor degree to the average salary of a person with a high school degree is not the same as comparing with an average of professional hockey players and/or former Major Junior player.

Finally, Major Junior players who opt to go pro instead of college are excersicing a choice which can be made when the athlete is very mature at age 20 or 21, and has a good grasp of his options and a good idea (at least better idea) of how he wants his life to unfold, as opposed to asking a 16-18 year old to close all other doors and put all his eggs in one schools basket. I suppose if your goal is to play for School X and they offer you a scholarship then that in itself is a goal achieved.

Certainly nothing wrong with committing to a school. But for guys who's goal is a professional hockey career, there are better avenues which can be pursued all the while keeping the school option open - and actually, fully paid for.

Your points ignore the fact that the Major Junior guys who arent getting an education after junior isn't because they are suddenly pumping gas. It's because they are playing professional hockey. Your points would have been valid 20 years ago, but in this day and age with the WHL scholarship being the most succesful of it's kind and been around now a long time, for the most part, kids who don't pro are getting a college degree.

Allow me to lift up that rock you've been living under. It's 2014, LOL ;0)

Citing Cracked magazine. Bold

I'll definitely disagree with the quote provided. The numbers on the earnings gap between those with and without post secondary degrees simply reference factual info provided thru the Census Bureau, Labor Dept, and Education Dept, based on their gathered data for recent period of time. To create the lifetime aggregate they simply multiply by a static number (x number of years in the workforce). They aren't accounting for inflation or wage increases so deducting 350,000.00 from lifetime earnings based on inflation is inaccurate and only tells half the story. Inflation and wages are undeniably linked and while during recessions they rarely match, one begets the other. See price-wage spiral from macroeconomics 202 (in college). So that lifetime earnings difference reduction based on inflation may exist but it would be a much, much smaller number.

On top of that, I'm not sure these numbers reflect the tangible additions of long term advancement and career upward mobility that college educated folks will often have at their disposal that are more than someone without that same education. On top of that...investments from that extra earned money that compounds over a lifetime. I'd argue with just these couple of additions that the numbers often cited are conservative. IMHO of course

[BlueLineSpecial]

And after more thoroughly reading the link to Cracked, I can confidently say that the author of that article is indeed, cracked. He misquoted the crap out of the article he cited for his numbers. I read the link he provided and I'm appalled. He clearly didn't even read the article he's quoting. If he did, he'd see on the very first page that the numbers are synthetic. Also, his cited reference is using info from 1999 (I guess it isn't Exiled that needs to get with the times, is it Scorekeeper). The gap in wages between those with/without a degree has widened dramatically since then. Just awful. I guess there's a reason he is writing for Cracked. I actually feel bad for anyone that read his article and used his inaccurate and outdated 'facts' as a factor in their education decision making.

[The Exiled One]

Certainly nothing wrong with committing to a school. But for guys who's goal is a professional hockey career, there are better avenues which can be pursued all the while keeping the school option open - and actually, fully paid for.

Is this your opinion? Because you state it like it's a fact. If it's your opinion, I simply disagree.

Secondly, I find it interesting that you begin your lengthy post with a diatribe against the value of a bachelor's degree then finish with the value of the WHL's education package. Frankly, you come off as disingenuous when you refuse to admit that there are absolutely NO cons to playing in the WHL.

[scorekeeper]

I'm sure the WHL education package works out for some guys. But these are also guys that basically have to make a tough decision by age 20 or 21 to give up the serious pursuit of a pro career. Because they have to make a decision within about a year after leaving the WHL about whether to go to school to get use of the education package or else it disappears on them. I'm sure that is a tough call for a lot of guys (and it is a decision similarly aged kids in NCAA hockey don't have to think about). Yeah, those guys can go off and play CIS (Canadian college hockey) but that level is not nearly as good as the bulk of NCAA hockey teams.

Well, 21 or 22 and by that age I'm not so sure it's such a tough call. If every NHL, AHL and European team has passed on you by age 22, I think the decision isn't that difficult. Still, there are A LOT of guys who play major junior, go play minor pro for a year, go get their degree and play college hockey and then go back on the minor pro circuit. CIS hockey isn't as far behind D1 hockey as it used to be, thanks in large part to the WHL scholarship. It's behind for sure, and lacks any star power, but it's still a good level of hockey for a late bloomer to find his game.

Most guys don't sign on to Major Junior for the education, but parents and players should know that the option is there and the scholarship is exceptional. 1 year full ride books/tuition for every year you play. You also aren't locked into a single school. There is definitely flexibility there , which would be an added bonus to young guys who maybe aren't sure what their career path is at 16 or 17 when college are looking for commitments. Some definite academic advantages to delaying having to pick a school too early.

[scorekeeper]

Frankly, you come off as disingenuous when you refuse to admit that there are absolutely NO cons to playing in the WHL.

??? Didn't know I was being interrogated. Where is the question?

Or better yet, perhaps you can enlighten us ... what are the cons? ACTUAL tangible cons, not the over-reached hypotheticals and other fantasy island stuff you guys like to fabricate on here.

[The Exiled One]

what are the cons?

You first.

[O-townClown]

An early post looked at some guy's NHL careers and wondered about longevity. One of the most peculiar (to me) is Todd Richards.

He played more NHL playoff games than he did regular season games.

How common is that?

The thread became a college vs. Major Junior debate. One thing I found interesting last week was reading about the Michigan player that wrote two children's books. It sounds like he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth, one in each hand, and a full place setting with a pair of forks and a butter knife and serrated steak knife too. Dad owns a bunch of youth hockey clubs, a few Junior teams, and presumably a lot of real estate. Anyway, despite being in the BUSINESS OF JUNIOR HOCKEY in Ontario his kid (drafted by the Panthers) somehow wound up at the University of Michigan.

It's real easy to tell someone else's kid to pursue CHL hockey. For some of us, it's a lot harder to tell your own kid that's their path. I know several guys that played in the NHL that agree.

I'm closed-minded on this. If my son is good enough he still won't play OHL as long as I have a voice.

Fine for your kid though.

[imlisteningtothefnsong]

If this thread turns into a discussion about how one will never achieve success or make a 6 or 7 figure income without a bachelors degree then I will simply add many of the wealthy people I know (not rich but wealthy) are people who did not go to college. Not only that, but how many of us know people that went to college are now working a job that does not even require a college degree? Big difference in working for a paycheck than working for a company. College degrees don't automatically add up to dollars any more than a WHL contract guarantees a fat NHL contract!!! Different strokes for different kids!!!!

[BlueLineSpecial]

If this thread turns into a discussion about how one will never achieve success or make a 6 or 7 figure income without a bachelors degree then I will simply add many of the wealthy people I know (not rich but wealthy) are people who did not go to college. Not only that, but how many of us know people that went to college are now working a job that does not even require a college degree? Big difference in working for a paycheck than working for a company. College degrees don't automatically add up to dollars any more than a WHL contract guarantees a fat NHL contract!!! Different strokes for different kids!!!!

http://youtu.be/8L5ZLuggSpM

[scorekeeper]

The gap in wages between those with/without a degree has widened dramatically since then. Just awful. I guess there's a reason he is writing for Cracked. I actually feel bad for anyone that read his article and used his inaccurate and outdated 'facts' as a factor in their education decision making.

If you don't like the cracked article, here's one from The Chronicle of Higher Education, titled Earnings Gap Narrows, but College Education Still Pays
http://chronicle.com/article/Earnings-G ... ut/142175/

"According to the new report (from the College Board.), for college graduates entering the work force, the immediate payoff has slipped a bit. In 2008, males ages 25 to 34 with bachelor's degrees made 74 percent more in median earnings than did high-school graduates in the same age range; the figure was 79 percent for women. In 2011, however, the difference was only 69 percent for men and 70 percent for women, the report says."

My point was that folks with bachelor degrees do NOT earn 100% more (double) than folks with high school degrees, as was being presented as a FACT.

College grads make nearly twice as much as non-college grads. This is just a fact backed up by a source, not an opinion.

You're a little better than 2/3rd the way to a fact.

My larger point, is that it's irrelevant. The average Ex - WHL player WITHOUT a degree is not having to live on the same average salary of the average person with only a high school degree. So not only was the presented FACT, indeed NOT A FACT, but was irrelevant to the discussion.

If you think I am wrong, please show me these ex-junior players pumping gas or sweeping floors. I suspect you'll find them playing poker somewhere with Big Foot and the Easter Bunny. I would suggest that the average salary of your average x-WHL player WITHOUT a degree is higher than your average person with a bachelor degree.

Having said that, the amount of ex WHL players getting college degrees is on the rise (might be as high as 40%) and many do it IN ADDITION to chasing the dream of pro hockey.

[imlisteningtothefnsong]

Scorekeeper, stop muddying all these raw feelings with facts!!!! How do you think we ended up with obama anyway!!!

[BlueLineSpecial]

The gap in wages between those with/without a degree has widened dramatically since then. Just awful. I guess there's a reason he is writing for Cracked. I actually feel bad for anyone that read his article and used his inaccurate and outdated 'facts' as a factor in their education decision making.

If you don't like the cracked article, here's one from The Chronicle of Higher Education, titled Earnings Gap Narrows, but College Education Still Pays
http://chronicle.com/article/Earnings-G ... ut/142175/

"According to the new report (from the College Board.), for college graduates entering the work force, the immediate payoff has slipped a bit. In 2008, males ages 25 to 34 with bachelor's degrees made 74 percent more in median earnings than did high-school graduates in the same age range; the figure was 79 percent for women. In 2011, however, the difference was only 69 percent for men and 70 percent for women, the report says."

My point was that folks with bachelor degrees do NOT earn 100% more (double) than folks with high school degrees, as was being presented as a FACT.

College grads make nearly twice as much as non-college grads. This is just a fact backed up by a source, not an opinion.

You're a little better than 2/3rd the way to a fact.

My larger point, is that it's irrelevant. The average Ex - WHL player WITHOUT a degree is not having to live on the same average salary of the average person with only a high school degree. So not only was the presented FACT, indeed NOT A FACT, but was irrelevant to the discussion.

If you think I am wrong, please show me these ex-junior players pumping gas or sweeping floors. I suspect you'll find them playing poker somewhere with Big Foot and the Easter Bunny. I would suggest that the average salary of your average x-WHL player WITHOUT a degree is higher than your average person with a bachelor degree.

Having said that, the amount of ex WHL players getting college degrees is on the rise (might be as high as 40%) and many do it IN ADDITION to chasing the dream of pro hockey.

Sure it slipped a little during the worst economy since the Great Depression. Using isolated statistics during economic turmoil is ineffective. Since '99 the trend is widening, not narrowing. And each decade it continues to widen.

By the way, I think you're twisting Exiled One's numbers a little. He actually said its nearly double. Type that into Google and see the literally thousands of articles that have that exact language in their title. Also, Exiled just said college, not a bachelors degree. If you include the millions and millions that have more education than a bachelors degree, it is indeed double

Anyway, it's off topic from your original point. I don't know enough about the WHL path to say it's better or worse than the NCAA path. You've provided some interesting info tho.

[scorekeeper]

Scorekeeper, stop muddying all these raw feelings with facts!!!! How do you think we ended up with obama anyway!!!

LOL. You just dont know what you just dont know and in Minnesota, most of what is "known" about the CHL has been intentionally misrepresented.

Here is an interest snapshot though. All players born in 1991 or earlier have now been done the WHL for at least a year and have had to use or lose their education packages (on top of whatever education the team supplied while they were there).

Here is the roster of my sons team the first time they had 1991 players on the team. Not an especially deep team, as Portland has been the last couple years. These guys were ousted in the first round of the playoffs but there are some recognizeable names. Tell me Steve, how many of these guys do you think play pro hockey, how many went to college, how many went college AND THEN resumed pro hockey and how many neither played pro hockey or went to college?

Brayden Schenn C
Matt Calvert LW
Matt Lowry C
Tyler Dittmer LW
Scott Glennie C
Andrew Clark LW
Jay Fehr C
Nathan Green C
Daryl Boyle D
Daniel Bartek C
Colby Robak D
Cale Jefferies LW
Theran Yeo D
Keith Aulie D
Del Cowan LW
Chad Erb D
Sanfred King RW
Jordan Hale LW
Matthew McCue D
Brodie Melnychuk D
Andrew Hayes G
Joe Caligiuri G

Do you think this group lives up to the Minnesota stereotypes of WHL players?

[MrBoDangles]

If this thread turns into a discussion about how one will never achieve success or make a 6 or 7 figure income without a bachelors degree then I will simply add many of the wealthy people I know (not rich but wealthy) are people who did not go to college. Not only that, but how many of us know people that went to college are now working a job that does not even require a college degree? Big difference in working for a paycheck than working for a company. College degrees don't automatically add up to dollars any more than a WHL contract guarantees a fat NHL contract!!! Different strokes for different kids!!!!

Better that by pulling them from school in 3rd grade and just have them focus on hockey... Since education means little towards success in life.

This might excite you, but it's supposed to be sarcasm..

[scorekeeper]

Anyway, it's off topic from your original point. I don't know enough about the WHL path to say it's better or worse than the NCAA path. You've provided some interesting info tho.

Thanks Blue. I only brought it up because I know it wasn't 100% (therefore not a fact). It really didn't have much to do with my point or this topic.

[BlueLineSpecial]

Anyway, it's off topic from your original point. I don't know enough about the WHL path to say it's better or worse than the NCAA path. You've provided some interesting info tho.

Thanks Blue. I only brought it up because I know it wasn't 100% (therefore not a fact). It really didn't have much to do with my point or this topic.

Love these discussions. How exactly does the scholarship thing work with the WHL? I'm interested and I've heard a lot of different things, not all of which can be true...

[imlisteningtothefnsong]

Scorekeeper, you missed my tongue in cheek.... Don't let the facts interfere with feelings!!!! You make valid points, the problem is the only path in Mn is one association (no matter how it diversifies) then the state tourney, then maybe USHL and finally the gophers and a psychology major and a minor in Spanish. Throw in a few cliche interviews where you say how fortunate to win the state tourney with 12 guys you played mites with and how great it is to have lisping Lou for a grandpa!! Now you are ready for the state of hockey hall of fame!!!! Bo- don't get too excited about tounge in cheek......

[MrBoDangles]

Scorekeeper, you missed my tongue in cheek.... Don't let the facts interfere with feelings!!!! You make valid points, the problem is the only path in Mn is one association (no matter how it diversifies) then the state tourney, then maybe USHL and finally the gophers and a psychology major and a minor in Spanish. Throw in a few cliche interviews where you say how fortunate to win the state tourney with 12 guys you played mites with and how great it is to have lisping Lou for a grandpa!! Now you are ready for the state of hockey hall of fame!!!! Bo- don't get too excited about tounge in cheek......

Classy!

[scorekeeper]

Love these discussions. How exactly does the scholarship thing work with the WHL? I'm interested and I've heard a lot of different things, not all of which can be true...

It's really not very complicated. (cut and paste) For every season a player plays in the WHL, they receive a full year guaranteed Scholarship, including tuition, textbooks and compulsory fees, to a post-secondary institution of their choice. For example, players graduating from a four-year WHL career are eligible to receive four years of scholarship funding. (end cut and paste) Additionally, players can recieve an additional year for signing. This isn't standard, but it's not hard to get. In total, players can recieve a maximum of 5 years tuition/books and compulsary fees.

If they sign an NHL contract before they are 22 then they forfeit the scholarship, which is the same thing that would happen to a D1 player who signed an NHL contract.

Players must begin University within 18 months after their final year in the WHL. 18 months later, (most players would be 22) if they have not yet started University then they forfeit the scholarship. I suppose if you were 22 and hadn't yet began at a D1 school there is likely no scholarship coming either. This gives the player one full season to try pro hockey.

The reality is, a good percentage of WHL players have their NHL contracts in hand before they are 22 and most that don't probably weren't getting D1 offers anyways, so the WHL scholarship is an amazing bonus for those players after a WHL career, which has it's own rewards of course.

WHL detractors often try and find some devil in those details, but it's really pretty simple.

Here's a real life look at a real WHL team on which every single player has now passed the deadline for using a scholarship. The 2007-08 Brandon Wheat Kings were an average team who lost in the first round of the playoffs. The youngest players on that team will turn 23 this year. There were 22 players on their playoff roster that season - here's how they turned out ... so far ...

WENT FROM WHL TO PRO - NO UNIVERSITY

Brayden Schenn C 5 year pro AHL/NHL - current team Philadelphia Flyers (NHL)
Keith Aulie D 5 yr pro AHL/NHL - current team Tampa Bay Lightning (NHL)
Matt Calvert LW 4 yr pro AHL/NHL - current team Columbus Blue Jackets (NHL)
Colby Robak D 4 yr pro AHL/NHL - current team Florida Panthers (NHL)
Scott Glennie C 4 yr pro AHL/NHL - current team Texas Stars (AHL)
Daryl Boyle D 7 yr pro AHL/DEL - current team Augsburg Panthers (DEL)

Obviously these 6 forfeited their scholarships. Not sure what the average salary of these high school graduates is, but I'm pretty sure it's a lot more than the average salary of an average guy with a bachelor degree.

UNIVERSITY GRADS - AND PLAYED SOME PRO

Daniel Bartek C 4 yr Dalhousie University + hockey - GRADUATED
Theran Yeo D 3 yr U of BC / U of Regina - GRADUATED
Chad Erb D 3 yr U of Manitoba - GRADUATED
Andrew Clark LW 4 yr degree and hockey at Acadia U and then 2 yr pro ECHL/AHL - current team Bridgeport Sound Tigers
Matt Lowry C 1 yr AHL then completed his degree at U of Manitoba (2 1/2 years) and now back in the ECHL - current team Evansville Icemen

These 5 have all graduated from University through the WHL scholarship. Lowry even played a year of AHL before finishing his University degree. Also worth noting that neither Lowry or Clark "abandoned the dream" just because they graduated University. Both are still playing professional hockey with a degree in pocket. Lowry in the ECHL and Clark in the AHL.

CURRENTLY IN UNIVERSITY

Tyler Dittmer LW 1 yr pro in German League then 5 yr degree at U of Manitoba - current team U of Manitoba
Cale Jefferies LW 5 yr U. of Guelph - current team U. of Guelph
Del Cowan LW 4 yr U of Manitoba - current team U of Manitoba
Joe Caligiuri G 3 yr U of Manitoba - current team U of Manitoba
Sanfred King RW 3 yr U of Regina - current team U of Regina
Andrew Hayes G 3 yr U of Regina - current team U of Regina
Nathan Green C 2 yr U of Manitoba - current team U of Manitoba
Brodie Melnychuk D 2 yr U of Manitoba - current team U of Manitoba

These 8, bring to 13 the number of players on that 22 man roster that attended University through the WHL scholarship. Three of these guys graduate this year while the other 5 continue on. All 13 players played college hockey while getting their degrees.

??????

Jay Fehr C 1 yr pro in Germany - 1 yr at Acadia U
Matthew McCue D 2 yr pro ECHL/CHL/AHL since 2011 ???
Jordan Hale LW ??? life after the WHL ???

Jay Fehr was a good junior hockey player. Cousin of Eric Fehr of the Washington Capitals. He attended 1 year of University and decided to try his hand in Europe. He returned home to play senior hockey for his hometown, where he still plays. McCue was a fighter who played 2 years of minor pro and packed er in. Jordan Hale was a serviceable scrapper for 3 years in junior but didn't develop enough to get a roster spot as an older player and was sent back to junior A. He was eligible for 3 years of university but never cashed it in.

------------------------

[The Exiled One]

Thanks Blue. I only brought it up because I know it wasn't 100% (therefore not a fact). It really didn't have much to do with my point or this topic.

The stat doesn't pertain to hockey, but it does pertain to the value of education. My parents expected me to graduate college and I expect my kids to graduate college, whatever their hockey potential. I'm not saying college is for everybody, but for my family, it is.