AAA National Championships with MN in them.... a proposal!

Froggy Richards · Post by **Froggy Richards** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:17 am

JSR wrote:
Froggy Richards wrote:
SCBlueLiner wrote: I just don't think there is any way MN HS hockey is going to compete with the USHL or even NAHL. If kids have the opportunity to play at that level, right or wrong for them, some are going to take that opportunity. I don't think the answer is to put together a Team Minnesota to play in one tournament at the end of the season. Yeah, 17-20 kids just went out and proved this state is the best. Whoopee. All this fuss over a small minority of players. Bet if you put this team together the same number of kids are still going to leave to play juniors because, well, the Anderson Cup, the Clark Cup, and the Robertson Cup are about 10000x greater than any U18 or U16 Tier 1 title you can win on an all-star squad, and the allure of playing at that level is too great.

You want to keep kids here and playing for their high school teams then you have to offer them something deeper and more meaningful. More games, better games, more competition, dynamic schedules, more and better coaching and not just for the top 20 or top 50, but for at least the top 100. How you do that is the question. More HS games. A longer season. Two seasons. National invitational tournaments. You tell me.

I don't know, keep plugging away with ideas, but the chance to play in one tournament is not going to keep kids home. This is more about a few people wanting to win a trophy to say Minnesota is the best, or rather, people from other areas of the country wanting a shot at Minnesota so they can say they truly are the best.
Obviously you're right. There may be reasons to do this but keeping kids home isn't one of them. Playing in this tournament wouldn't even factor into a kid's decision of whether or not to leave MN for a different opportunity. You're correct, so far the only interest I've heard in this is from people outside of MN. I'm not sure why. I don't think a team of MN's top 20 would even be tested in this tournament. Shattuck won the U18 and U14 again this year and there is no question the top 20 HS kids would easily beat Shattuck. Heck, Edina might have even beat Shattuck this year.
Sorry Froggy but thi sis where you lose me and I find you a little comical in how much of a homer you are. It's true that MN produces a DEPTH of talent for D1 and the pros compared to other states. But as I have said before just because you can field 6 teams of that caliber of player does not mean that your "best 20" are so significantly better than the other 80 you are leaving at home that they will just destory everyone in their path. I mean is te Elite League results against Schattuck and others not enough evidence to prove that they absolutely would be tested... oh wait you are going to say the Elite league is not the best twenty... nope they aren't but if you've watched hockey over the years like I think you have then you know that cherry picking whoever you think are the best 20 doesn't mean the results will be significantly different. The other teams int he other states might not be able to field six teams worth of talent but the one team they do field absolutely can keep pace with your best 20

I'm not trying to be a Homer here. Minnesota has had High School teams that have beaten Shattuck in the past. I think it's safe to say the top 20 would fare pretty well. "Cherry Picking" the top 20 is exactly what every country does prior to the Olympics. They know a lot more about putting together a hockey team than you or I.

JSR · Post by **JSR** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:46 am

Froggy Richards wrote:
JSR wrote:
Froggy Richards wrote: Obviously you're right. There may be reasons to do this but keeping kids home isn't one of them. Playing in this tournament wouldn't even factor into a kid's decision of whether or not to leave MN for a different opportunity. You're correct, so far the only interest I've heard in this is from people outside of MN. I'm not sure why. I don't think a team of MN's top 20 would even be tested in this tournament. Shattuck won the U18 and U14 again this year and there is no question the top 20 HS kids would easily beat Shattuck. Heck, Edina might have even beat Shattuck this year.
Sorry Froggy but thi sis where you lose me and I find you a little comical in how much of a homer you are. It's true that MN produces a DEPTH of talent for D1 and the pros compared to other states. But as I have said before just because you can field 6 teams of that caliber of player does not mean that your "best 20" are so significantly better than the other 80 you are leaving at home that they will just destory everyone in their path. I mean is te Elite League results against Schattuck and others not enough evidence to prove that they absolutely would be tested... oh wait you are going to say the Elite league is not the best twenty... nope they aren't but if you've watched hockey over the years like I think you have then you know that cherry picking whoever you think are the best 20 doesn't mean the results will be significantly different. The other teams int he other states might not be able to field six teams worth of talent but the one team they do field absolutely can keep pace with your best 20
I'm not trying to be a Homer here. Minnesota has had High School teams that have beaten Shattuck in the past. I think it's safe to say the top 20 would fare pretty well. "Cherry Picking" the top 20 is exactly what every country does prior to the Olympics. They know a lot more about putting together a hockey team than you or I.

That's great that some private schools who also recruit have beaten Schattuck a couple of time, big deal, I never said a MN team that may or may not comprise your top 20 could not win, of course they could, I merely took issue that you said they "wouldn't even be tested", that statement was pure homerism. To think they wouldn't be tested is nonsense.... also again remember there are three age divisions of teh national championships, why is it that you guys only focus on the U18's?? Again the U14's and U16's are the "showcase" age levels at Nationals, the U18's are a depleted age group due to all the top guns going to juniors.

DrGaf · Post by **DrGaf** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:53 am

Froggy Richards wrote:"Cherry Picking" the top 20 is exactly what every country does prior to the Olympics. They know a lot more about putting together a hockey team than you or I.

speak for yourself ... I got this.

Now, who wants to play 1st line winger next to the lil' Gaf?

Froggy Richards · Post by **Froggy Richards** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 11:10 am

JSR wrote:
Froggy Richards wrote:
JSR wrote: Sorry Froggy but thi sis where you lose me and I find you a little comical in how much of a homer you are. It's true that MN produces a DEPTH of talent for D1 and the pros compared to other states. But as I have said before just because you can field 6 teams of that caliber of player does not mean that your "best 20" are so significantly better than the other 80 you are leaving at home that they will just destory everyone in their path. I mean is te Elite League results against Schattuck and others not enough evidence to prove that they absolutely would be tested... oh wait you are going to say the Elite league is not the best twenty... nope they aren't but if you've watched hockey over the years like I think you have then you know that cherry picking whoever you think are the best 20 doesn't mean the results will be significantly different. The other teams int he other states might not be able to field six teams worth of talent but the one team they do field absolutely can keep pace with your best 20
I'm not trying to be a Homer here. Minnesota has had High School teams that have beaten Shattuck in the past. I think it's safe to say the top 20 would fare pretty well. "Cherry Picking" the top 20 is exactly what every country does prior to the Olympics. They know a lot more about putting together a hockey team than you or I.
That's great that some private schools who also recruit have beaten Schattuck a couple of time, big deal, I never said a MN team that may or may not comprise your top 20 could not win, of course they could, I merely took issue that you said they "wouldn't even be tested", that statement was pure homerism. To think they wouldn't be tested is nonsense.... also again remember there are three age divisions of teh national championships, why is it that you guys only focus on the U18's?? Again the U14's and U16's are the "showcase" age levels at Nationals, the U18's are a depleted age group due to all the top guns going to juniors.

I focused on U18 because I thought that was the only level that was compatible with the MN Age model. Maybe I'm wrong on that.

U18 is a depleted age group because all of the top guns go to Juniors?

You said in your first post:

This could be an enticing offer in the conitnuing effort to try and keep kids playing high school hockey and not bolt for juniors or out of state AAA teams, all while keeping the integrity of MN High School hockey.....

If the top guns in other states don't even stick around for this tournament, what makes you think Minnesota kids would?

JSR · Post by **JSR** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 11:47 am

Froggy Richards wrote:
JSR wrote:
Froggy Richards wrote: I'm not trying to be a Homer here. Minnesota has had High School teams that have beaten Shattuck in the past. I think it's safe to say the top 20 would fare pretty well. "Cherry Picking" the top 20 is exactly what every country does prior to the Olympics. They know a lot more about putting together a hockey team than you or I.
That's great that some private schools who also recruit have beaten Schattuck a couple of time, big deal, I never said a MN team that may or may not comprise your top 20 could not win, of course they could, I merely took issue that you said they "wouldn't even be tested", that statement was pure homerism. To think they wouldn't be tested is nonsense.... also again remember there are three age divisions of teh national championships, why is it that you guys only focus on the U18's?? Again the U14's and U16's are the "showcase" age levels at Nationals, the U18's are a depleted age group due to all the top guns going to juniors.
I focused on U18 because I thought that was the only level that was compatible with the MN Age model. Maybe I'm wrong on that.

U18 is a depleted age group because all of the top guns go to Juniors?

You said in your first post:

This could be an enticing offer in the conitnuing effort to try and keep kids playing high school hockey and not bolt for juniors or out of state AAA teams, all while keeping the integrity of MN High School hockey.....

If the top guns in other states don't even stick around for this tournament, what makes you think Minnesota kids would?

If you fielded a B&A team (like TW in Wisconsin) your MN age model would not be an issue because you would follow USA Hockey January 1st age cutoffs just as you do now in MN for spring and summer teams. So the proposal applied to all age groups...

As for point #2, because MN has other things that could combine with this to possibly keep them at home. In other states there is nothing keeping the top players home, they don't have a high school tourney, and depth of talent int he Elite League and High Schoola nd other places to that are opther little draws that entice them to stay home, that doesn't exist anywhere else so why should they stay??? ... I doubt any model will ever keep 100% of them but what if doing this kept 20 of the 40 that left at home, would it be worth it????

JSR · Post by **JSR** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:03 pm

I'm confused, I thought all the high schoolers quit playing hockey up in MN in the spring so they could play spring sports, and play outside....

http://www.mnhockeyhub.com/schedule/day ... son=159569

The arguments "against" keep getting thinner

puckbreath · Post by **puckbreath** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:27 pm

JSR wrote:I'm confused, I thought all the high schoolers quit playing hockey up in MN in the spring so they could play spring sports, and play outside....

http://www.mnhockeyhub.com/schedule/day ... son=159569

The arguments "against" keep getting thinner

A tournament which nicely shows the point I made, thank you; little interest to spend the $ and time to go elsewhere, when this takes place, yearly, right at home.

JSR · Post by **JSR** » Mon May 05, 2014 5:21 pm

So there is a "hot" rumor that is circulating that MN Hockey intends to approve/create an all star team(s) out of the Elite League and will send that team of players into a MN District playoff with Schattuck for the right to represent MN in the Tier 1 AAA national tournament..... wonder if they saw my post?? LOL.....

puckbreath · Post by **puckbreath** » Mon May 05, 2014 7:59 pm

JSR wrote:So there is a "hot" rumor that is circulating that MN Hockey intends to approve/create an all star team(s) out of the Elite League and will send that team of players into a MN District playoff with Schattuck for the right to represent MN in the Tier 1 AAA national tournament..... wonder if they saw my post?? LOL.....

Who/what started the rumor ?

greybeard58 · Post by **greybeard58** » Mon May 05, 2014 9:22 pm

If the rumor was not voted on in the April meeting and is not passed at the June meeting it will still be a rumor.
The all-star team would have to be registered as a before and after and be rostered to participate in the elite league as any team that has stated intention to participate in the National tournament has to play as a team 20 games against USA Hockey registered teams and each player has to have played in at least 10 games with that team with documentation. All rosters are checked before any playoff and needs to be certified by the Minnesota registrar. Good luck.

JSR · Post by **JSR** » Tue May 06, 2014 2:14 pm

puckbreath wrote:
JSR wrote:So there is a "hot" rumor that is circulating that MN Hockey intends to approve/create an all star team(s) out of the Elite League and will send that team of players into a MN District playoff with Schattuck for the right to represent MN in the Tier 1 AAA national tournament..... wonder if they saw my post?? LOL.....

Who/what started the rumor ?

Two of the big wigs in WAHA were discussing it at a function we had last week. Didn't have time to get details from them on when it might actually come to fruition, if it was something that was voted on at the April meeting, or tabled to next April, wasn;t able to get those details from them at the time. but thought it was interesting that it was floating out there.....

puckbreath · Post by **puckbreath** » Tue May 06, 2014 2:18 pm

JSR wrote:
puckbreath wrote:
JSR wrote:So there is a "hot" rumor that is circulating that MN Hockey intends to approve/create an all star team(s) out of the Elite League and will send that team of players into a MN District playoff with Schattuck for the right to represent MN in the Tier 1 AAA national tournament..... wonder if they saw my post?? LOL.....

Who/what started the rumor ?
Two of the big wigs in WAHA were discussing it at a function we had last week. Didn't have time to get details from them on when it might actually come to fruition, if it was something that was voted on at the April meeting, or tabled to next April, wasn;t able to get those details from them at the time. but thought it was interesting that it was floating out there.....

Well, as greybeard said, lot has to happen to make a rumor into reality.

Excuse my ignorance; what is the WAHA ? And who were the two "big wigs" mentioned ?

JSR · Post by **JSR** » Tue May 06, 2014 4:20 pm

puckbreath wrote:
JSR wrote:
puckbreath wrote:
Who/what started the rumor ?
Two of the big wigs in WAHA were discussing it at a function we had last week. Didn't have time to get details from them on when it might actually come to fruition, if it was something that was voted on at the April meeting, or tabled to next April, wasn;t able to get those details from them at the time. but thought it was interesting that it was floating out there.....
Well, as greybeard said, lot has to happen to make a rumor into reality.

Excuse my ignorance; what is the WAHA ? And who were the two "big wigs" mentioned ?

WAHA is Wisconsin's version of MN Hockey, it's our USA Hockey affiliate here in WI.... as to the other question, I don't think it appropriate to name names in a scenario like this on a message board like this.

puckbreath · Post by **puckbreath** » Tue May 06, 2014 4:46 pm

JSR wrote:
puckbreath wrote:
JSR wrote: Two of the big wigs in WAHA were discussing it at a function we had last week. Didn't have time to get details from them on when it might actually come to fruition, if it was something that was voted on at the April meeting, or tabled to next April, wasn;t able to get those details from them at the time. but thought it was interesting that it was floating out there.....
Well, as greybeard said, lot has to happen to make a rumor into reality.

Excuse my ignorance; what is the WAHA ? And who were the two "big wigs" mentioned ?
WAHA is Wisconsin's version of MN Hockey, it's our USA Hockey affiliate here in WI.... as to the other question, I don't think it appropriate to name names in a scenario like this on a message board like this.

Thanks.

JSR · Post by **JSR** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:45 am

I guess someone read my proposal..... guess my sources on this potentially happening as soon as next year or the year after at the latest were pretty good as well... just sayin...

http://www.youthhockeyhub.com/news_arti ... _id=967187

Also on a side note, the article says MN will conduct business as usual at the Bantam Major (2000's this year) and younger levels. That is not accurate, there are already wheels in motion that those levels might also be introduced via this ruling. We should know alot by or before the end of this week.

Froggy Richards · Post by **Froggy Richards** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:30 am

JSR wrote:I guess someone read my proposal..... guess my sources on this potentially happening as soon as next year or the year after at the latest were pretty good as well... just sayin...

http://www.youthhockeyhub.com/news_arti ... _id=967187

Also on a side note, the article says MN will conduct business as usual at the Bantam Major (2000's this year) and younger levels. That is not accurate, there are already wheels in motion that those levels might also be introduced via this ruling. We should know alot by or before the end of this week.

Wasn't your Proposal for MN to do a before and after with their Elite League teams? Unless I'm misunderstanding this whole thing, what's on the table right now is nothing like that. They are simply considering allowing U18 Tier 1 teams to operate in the State.

As far as the younger levels, I don't buy it. I think YHH is probably accurate. Let's not forget that Tier 1 wouldn't exist as we know it today if other states had the same numbers as MN. Community based, Association Hockey is still by far the best model. I've never really seen anyone disagree with that.

JSR · Post by **JSR** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 5:09 pm

Froggy Richards wrote:
JSR wrote:I guess someone read my proposal..... guess my sources on this potentially happening as soon as next year or the year after at the latest were pretty good as well... just sayin...

http://www.youthhockeyhub.com/news_arti ... _id=967187

Also on a side note, the article says MN will conduct business as usual at the Bantam Major (2000's this year) and younger levels. That is not accurate, there are already wheels in motion that those levels might also be introduced via this ruling. We should know alot by or before the end of this week.
Wasn't your Proposal for MN to do a before and after with their Elite League teams? Unless I'm misunderstanding this whole thing, what's on the table right now is nothing like that. They are simply considering allowing U18 Tier 1 teams to operate in the State.

As far as the younger levels, I don't buy it. I think YHH is probably accurate. Let's not forget that Tier 1 wouldn't exist as we know it today if other states had the same numbers as MN. Community based, Association Hockey is still by far the best model. I've never really seen anyone disagree with that.

Actually my proposal was for B&A teams like what the Blades are prposing in this model. I said they could use the Elite League, but I was never steadfast on that, I actually said teams like the Blades or others could also do it... Combine that with the fact that Schattuck already exists so that opens the door for the other two scenarios, i just avoided that because of the fact that I thought a B&A model might be a happy medium, never thought they'd go for full blown winter for other schools. But I'd say to some degree what I proposed is exactly what is on the table only with some "extras" that go beyond it....

As for younger levels, I actually spoke to some folks today about it and younger levels are being petitioned as well. Whether they get approved or not is unknown but it's there right this very minute and we'll know this week....

JSR · Post by **JSR** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:00 pm

Froggy Richards wrote:
JSR wrote:I guess someone read my proposal..... guess my sources on this potentially happening as soon as next year or the year after at the latest were pretty good as well... just sayin...

http://www.youthhockeyhub.com/news_arti ... _id=967187

Also on a side note, the article says MN will conduct business as usual at the Bantam Major (2000's this year) and younger levels. That is not accurate, there are already wheels in motion that those levels might also be introduced via this ruling. We should know alot by or before the end of this week.
Wasn't your Proposal for MN to do a before and after with their Elite League teams? Unless I'm misunderstanding this whole thing, what's on the table right now is nothing like that. They are simply considering allowing U18 Tier 1 teams to operate in the State.

As far as the younger levels, I don't buy it. I think YHH is probably accurate. Let's not forget that Tier 1 wouldn't exist as we know it today if other states had the same numbers as MN. Community based, Association Hockey is still by far the best model. I've never really seen anyone disagree with that.

Do you buy it now??? Blades and Wings got approved for Before and After teams at both the U18 and U16 levels and Achiever got approved for winter Tier 1 teams at the U18, U16 and U14 levels.... The Achiever thing is likely meant to be based on the Schattuck ruling and mirrors what Schattuck is doing (hockey wise, not academically....) but never the less it all got approved. So looks like I might not have had al the details but pretty good info overall, I still think the before and after thing could've been embraced by the Elite League and it might have saved itself by embracing the idea but I suspect these newly approved clubs are going to put a strain on the Elite League, not saying it wil go away or is bad just saying it will definitely place a strain and they may be forced to evolve somehow now....

SCBlueLiner · Post by **SCBlueLiner** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:38 pm

From everything I have read Blades and Wings did not get approved, only AA.

Froggy Richards · Post by **Froggy Richards** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:18 pm

JSR wrote:
Froggy Richards wrote:
JSR wrote:I guess someone read my proposal..... guess my sources on this potentially happening as soon as next year or the year after at the latest were pretty good as well... just sayin...

http://www.youthhockeyhub.com/news_arti ... _id=967187

Also on a side note, the article says MN will conduct business as usual at the Bantam Major (2000's this year) and younger levels. That is not accurate, there are already wheels in motion that those levels might also be introduced via this ruling. We should know alot by or before the end of this week.
Wasn't your Proposal for MN to do a before and after with their Elite League teams? Unless I'm misunderstanding this whole thing, what's on the table right now is nothing like that. They are simply considering allowing U18 Tier 1 teams to operate in the State.

As far as the younger levels, I don't buy it. I think YHH is probably accurate. Let's not forget that Tier 1 wouldn't exist as we know it today if other states had the same numbers as MN. Community based, Association Hockey is still by far the best model. I've never really seen anyone disagree with that.
Do you buy it now??? Blades and Wings got approved for Before and After teams at both the U18 and U16 levels and Achiever got approved for winter Tier 1 teams at the U18, U16 and U14 levels.... The Achiever thing is likely meant to be based on the Schattuck ruling and mirrors what Schattuck is doing (hockey wise, not academically....) but never the less it all got approved. So looks like I might not have had al the details but pretty good info overall, I still think the before and after thing could've been embraced by the Elite League and it might have saved itself by embracing the idea but I suspect these newly approved clubs are going to put a strain on the Elite League, not saying it wil go away or is bad just saying it will definitely place a strain and they may be forced to evolve somehow now....

From Youth Hockey Hub:

At the April Minnesota Hockey meeting, three organizations applied for Tier I status. Two of them, the Minnesota Blades and the Northern Wings applied for Before/After status. The third, Ability Academic and Athletic (AAA) applied for full Tier I status ages Squirt through High School (ages 9-18.

In a landmark decision, Minnesota Hockey approved the application for AAA as long as they are a member of an affiliate MN Hockey association. Many believe that will be North St. Paul.

AAA will not be allowed sanctioning for Squirts or PeeWees (U10 and U12). Their U14 team will not be allowed to play in local association District, Region or State playoffs. This would not preclude them from playing non-league or tournament games versus MNH sanctioned teams.

The two non-profit organizations, the Minnesota Blades and Northern Wings were not given approval for their request for Before/After play next season. MN Hockey currently has a provision in their rules that prohibits players from a Before/After hockey.
..

JSR · Post by **JSR** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 3:48 pm

Froggy Richards wrote:
JSR wrote:
Froggy Richards wrote: Wasn't your Proposal for MN to do a before and after with their Elite League teams? Unless I'm misunderstanding this whole thing, what's on the table right now is nothing like that. They are simply considering allowing U18 Tier 1 teams to operate in the State.

As far as the younger levels, I don't buy it. I think YHH is probably accurate. Let's not forget that Tier 1 wouldn't exist as we know it today if other states had the same numbers as MN. Community based, Association Hockey is still by far the best model. I've never really seen anyone disagree with that.
Do you buy it now??? Blades and Wings got approved for Before and After teams at both the U18 and U16 levels and Achiever got approved for winter Tier 1 teams at the U18, U16 and U14 levels.... The Achiever thing is likely meant to be based on the Schattuck ruling and mirrors what Schattuck is doing (hockey wise, not academically....) but never the less it all got approved. So looks like I might not have had al the details but pretty good info overall, I still think the before and after thing could've been embraced by the Elite League and it might have saved itself by embracing the idea but I suspect these newly approved clubs are going to put a strain on the Elite League, not saying it wil go away or is bad just saying it will definitely place a strain and they may be forced to evolve somehow now....
From Youth Hockey Hub:

At the April Minnesota Hockey meeting, three organizations applied for Tier I status. Two of them, the Minnesota Blades and the Northern Wings applied for Before/After status. The third, Ability Academic and Athletic (AAA) applied for full Tier I status ages Squirt through High School (ages 9-18.

In a landmark decision, Minnesota Hockey approved the application for AAA as long as they are a member of an affiliate MN Hockey association. Many believe that will be North St. Paul.

AAA will not be allowed sanctioning for Squirts or PeeWees (U10 and U12). Their U14 team will not be allowed to play in local association District, Region or State playoffs. This would not preclude them from playing non-league or tournament games versus MNH sanctioned teams.

The two non-profit organizations, the Minnesota Blades and Northern Wings were not given approval for their request for Before/After play next season. MN Hockey currently has a provision in their rules that prohibits players from a Before/After hockey.
..

You forgot these parts from that same article:

While cautious of expanding Tier 1 hockey in Minnesota, Minnesota Hockey is committed to complete due diligence and to consider establishing rules governing Tier 1 hockey for the 2015-16 season and beyond. Those regulations will be finalized at the Minnesota Hockey board meeting in January, 2015. On a provisional basis for the 2014-15 season, Minnesota Hockey will be granting Tier 1 status to a limited number of teams/programs....
....Over the next six months, expect MN Hockey to adopt rules similar to what Wisconsin has in place for Tier I and Before/After.

Which to me it sure seems like it is saying that Achiever is good to go for the 2014-15 season and the other two B&A's will likely be good to go for the 2015-16 season....