Tier 1 Winter Hockey has no place in Minnesota

[SWPrez]

Have to say the whole decision seems odd from the outside. I am sure there were some reasons...but, the before/after was somewhat of a no-brainer ---> didn't harm MN Youth hockey, would keep kids in Minnesota high schools and thus playing for the State Tourney, provide exposure for kids who for one reason or other (often political) didn't get to play in the Elite League or the post season High Performance/Ted Brill/etc. USA/MN hockey sanctioned competitions. In essence, the community based system was augmented by this structure. Why not give MN kids more opportunities and exposure? What am I missing here?

The Achiever Academy decision puzzles me more -- a 14U will take Bantams from MN Youth programs, the 16U and 18U will take kids from MN High School hockey. Here I see community based hockey harmed.

The only thing that maybe caused them to go down that path is that the MN Thoroughbreds 19U Girls team has been almost exclusively girls defecting from MN High School play. In fact, the thoroughbreds promote on their website that it is "better than playing MN high school hockey" and that they play almost 60 games (compared with 25 max at high school). Perhaps the horse already had been let out of the barn and in this day and age you have to be fair to the boys and the girls.

Always would be interesting to be a fly on the wall when these things are decided to understand them better as I am sure there was some thought behind it.

[Froggy Richards]

Have to say the whole decision seems odd from the outside. I am sure there were some reasons...but, the before/after was somewhat of a no-brainer ---> didn't harm MN Youth hockey, would keep kids in Minnesota high schools and thus playing for the State Tourney, provide exposure for kids who for one reason or other (often political) didn't get to play in the Elite League or the post season High Performance/Ted Brill/etc. USA/MN hockey sanctioned competitions. In essence, the community based system was augmented by this structure. Why not give MN kids more opportunities and exposure? What am I missing here?

The Achiever Academy decision puzzles me more -- a 14U will take Bantams from MN Youth programs, the 16U and 18U will take kids from MN High School hockey. Here I see community based hockey harmed.

The only thing that maybe caused them to go down that path is that the MN Thoroughbreds 19U Girls team has been almost exclusively girls defecting from MN High School play. In fact, the thoroughbreds promote on their website that it is "better than playing MN high school hockey" and that they play almost 60 games (compared with 25 max at high school). Perhaps the horse already had been let out of the barn and in this day and age you have to be fair to the boys and the girls.

Always would be interesting to be a fly on the wall when these things are decided to understand them better as I am sure there was some thought behind it.

It does seem kind of odd. Maybe MN Hockey just wasn't ready for the kind of expansion of Tier 1 that Before and After would have brought to the State. Before and After would be very easy to do, I would imagine any of the current AAA organizations could organize a team for it. Once they let the Blades and Wings do it then others probably would have followed, and for whatever reason they must not have wanted to move that quickly.

The Achiever decision was probably the best case scenario if you're forced to add a year round Tier 1 option. MN Hockey must have felt pressure to add a program and if you have to do it, giving it to a Hockey School is probably the way to go. It will be interesting to see if they can make it work. I imagine they can fill an 18U team. By the time a kid gets to High School you should have a reasonable idea of whether or not they have a shot at playing Division 1 or Pro Hockey. For those that don't play High School, most of them will still go to Juniors, but for the rest, those people are probably more willing to sacrifice everything for the extra training and focus on Hockey. They better hope it works out, because 4 hours of online classes a day (when you're actually in school) probably isn't the best way to prepare for post high school academic success. They may even be able to field a 16U team, but 14U is a whole different story. It's far from a given that this will have any effect on Association Bantam Hockey.

Psychologists, Physical Therapists and Medical Doctors have been shouting from the rooftops in the last few years about all of the dangers of specializing in one sport year round until you're at least 15 or 16. They cite multiple cases of overuse injuries and burnout on a scale that we've never seen. These kids would start their Season in August and finish in April, just in time to join their Spring AAA teams.

I would imagine it's going to be a tough sell. Spend thousands of dollars, sacrifice your kid's Childhood, Education, friends, family life and risk burnout and overuse injuries. And for what, exactly? All of this before some of them even hit puberty so you have no idea how good they even are. Or, you can stick with what's proven to be the best Youth Model in the country and sacrifice none of those things.

If and when the 14U fails, then maybe MN Hockey can use this to shut the door on 14U or younger in MN for good. I'm not saying that is their intent, but it would be the best case scenario in my opinion.

[imlisteningtothefnsong]

With just 3 or 4 of the original on ice instructors, none of the classroom instructors, and 4 year enrollment of approx. 40 students combined all ages. I do not see a U anything except on the girls side. The boys numbers are just not there.

[Froggy Richards]

With just 3 or 4 of the original on ice instructors, none of the classroom instructors, and 4 year enrollment of approx. 40 students combined all ages. I do not see a U anything except on the girls side. The boys numbers are just not there.

I suspect that you're right, but wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt at the older levels. We'll know within the next couple of months if there is actually any interest in Tier 1 in MN.

[oldschoolpuckster]

I would bet that the U14 (boys) will fill up faster than anyone is ready for!! All of the 7th and 8th (some 9th) graders competing against "the best" competition in the country for two years before HS, playing 60+ games and for a National title. Then they can open enroll to the HS of their choice as a 9th grader.....it will fill up FAST!! I guess we will find out over the next few months.

I have heard that AA has lost almost all of their players (boys) that would make up the U18. Where will the new kids come from? Do the players have to attend AA to play Tier 1? (Similar to Shattuck) If they do, there does not seem to be any current players still around.

[SECoach]

I would bet that the U14 (boys) will fill up faster than anyone is ready for!! All of the 7th and 8th (some 9th) graders competing against "the best" competition in the country for two years before HS, playing 60+ games and for a National title. Then they can open enroll to the HS of their choice as a 9th grader.....it will fill up FAST!! I guess we will find out over the next few months.

I have heard that AA has lost almost all of their players (boys) that would make up the U18. Where will the new kids come from? Do the players have to attend AA to play Tier 1? (Similar to Shattuck) If they do, there does not seem to be any current players still around.

My GUESS is that the MN Hockey residence rule has a lot to do with this. In order to play for AA at any age, the player would have to either live in the community where it is based, or go to school there.

This would explain the before and after Tier I requests being denied as well. All the players on the Blades for example would have to live in or go to school in the community where it is based.

[The Exiled One]

This isn't a part of the conversation on this topic, but I just felt like sharing my brief thoughts on this topic...

There are always going to be parents who think that the best way to solve a problem is to throw money at it. My local association isn't good enough for my uber-talented kid? Let's send him to AAA. My kid isn't good enough for my local association? Let's send him to AAA.

Here's why this mentality ticks me off: I'm on the board of my local association. We have OPEN board positions that nobody wants to fill. We are extremely affordable compared to other area associations and especially compared to AAA programs. We have PLENTY of parents complaining about the association and a few of them have moved their kids to AAA. Instead of volunteering for the board, instead of donating money to hire better coaches, promote the association, or buy more ice, they yank their kids out and send them to an expensive AAA program. They take pride in their own kids but take NO pride in their community. They pay lip-service to the "Minnesota Model" but their actions undermine it. End of rant.

[JSR]

I would bet that the U14 (boys) will fill up faster than anyone is ready for!! All of the 7th and 8th (some 9th) graders competing against "the best" competition in the country for two years before HS, playing 60+ games and for a National title. Then they can open enroll to the HS of their choice as a 9th grader.....it will fill up FAST!! I guess we will find out over the next few months.

I have heard that AA has lost almost all of their players (boys) that would make up the U18. Where will the new kids come from? Do the players have to attend AA to play Tier 1? (Similar to Shattuck) If they do, there does not seem to be any current players still around.

I'm a little confused by your thoughts on the U14 team. Now technically the U14 team could take anyone born in the year 2000 or younger but traditionally this coming years U14's will only be born in the year 2000 (remember Tier 1 AAA is birth year based not MN age cutoff based). This coming school year I am pretty sure 100% of kids born in the year 2000 will be in either 9th or 8th grade, pretty sure none will be in 7th grade (saving a rare, rare weird exception to the rule). 7th graders would only apply to this scenario if they let some 2001's play up on their 2000 team, could happen but seems unlikely, just some small confusion on that part of your statement is all.

[JSR]

I would bet that the U14 (boys) will fill up faster than anyone is ready for!! All of the 7th and 8th (some 9th) graders competing against "the best" competition in the country for two years before HS, playing 60+ games and for a National title. Then they can open enroll to the HS of their choice as a 9th grader.....it will fill up FAST!! I guess we will find out over the next few months.

I have heard that AA has lost almost all of their players (boys) that would make up the U18. Where will the new kids come from? Do the players have to attend AA to play Tier 1? (Similar to Shattuck) If they do, there does not seem to be any current players still around.

My GUESS is that the MN Hockey residence rule has a lot to do with this. In order to play for AA at any age, the player would have to either live in the community where it is based, or go to school there.

This would explain the before and after Tier I requests being denied as well. All the players on the Blades for example would have to live in or go to school in the community where it is based.

Need some clarification here. To my knowledge AA is a school. Hence the residency rule is moot. It's basically a private school like Schattuck for the purposes of this scenario so I don't thinkt he residency rule applies here.

For the B&A teams, the way I read it was that MN Hockey some language in the bylaws that prohibit B&A teams right now, they have to get that language changed (which it sounds like they are in teh process of doing right now and will have it completed in the next 6 months or so) and once that language is clenaed up both the Blades and WIngs will be good to go for B&A Tier 1 AAA play in the 2014-15 season and beyond.... maybe I misunderstood what I read but I don't think it's a residency rule thing I this instance either, just some other bylaw language

[greybeard58]

If one chooses they can attend the Mn Hockey Meeting this weekend and get the answers to your questions.

[O-townClown]

(remember Tier 1 AAA is birth year based not MN age cutoff based)

USA Hockey has two-year groupings for each division.

Next season:

Squirts - 2005 & 2004
Pee Wee - 2003 & 2002
Bantam - 2001 & 2000
16U - 1999 & 1998
18U - 1997 & 1996

[SECoach]

I would bet that the U14 (boys) will fill up faster than anyone is ready for!! All of the 7th and 8th (some 9th) graders competing against "the best" competition in the country for two years before HS, playing 60+ games and for a National title. Then they can open enroll to the HS of their choice as a 9th grader.....it will fill up FAST!! I guess we will find out over the next few months.

I have heard that AA has lost almost all of their players (boys) that would make up the U18. Where will the new kids come from? Do the players have to attend AA to play Tier 1? (Similar to Shattuck) If they do, there does not seem to be any current players still around.

My GUESS is that the MN Hockey residence rule has a lot to do with this. In order to play for AA at any age, the player would have to either live in the community where it is based, or go to school there.

This would explain the before and after Tier I requests being denied as well. All the players on the Blades for example would have to live in or go to school in the community where it is based.

Need some clarification here. To my knowledge AA is a school. Hence the residency rule is moot. It's basically a private school like Schattuck for the purposes of this scenario so I don't thinkt he residency rule applies here.

For the B&A teams, the way I read it was that MN Hockey some language in the bylaws that prohibit B&A teams right now, they have to get that language changed (which it sounds like they are in teh process of doing right now and will have it completed in the next 6 months or so) and once that language is clenaed up both the Blades and WIngs will be good to go for B&A Tier 1 AAA play in the 2014-15 season and beyond.... maybe I misunderstood what I read but I don't think it's a residency rule thing I this instance either, just some other bylaw language

Playing in the association, or an affiliated member, where you attend school qualifies under the residency rule, with several stipulations on changes and multiple movement, etc. For further clarification you can read the rule.

[Froggy Richards]

I would bet that the U14 (boys) will fill up faster than anyone is ready for!! All of the 7th and 8th (some 9th) graders competing against "the best" competition in the country for two years before HS, playing 60+ games and for a National title. Then they can open enroll to the HS of their choice as a 9th grader.....it will fill up FAST!! I guess we will find out over the next few months.

I have heard that AA has lost almost all of their players (boys) that would make up the U18. Where will the new kids come from? Do the players have to attend AA to play Tier 1? (Similar to Shattuck) If they do, there does not seem to be any current players still around.

My GUESS is that the MN Hockey residence rule has a lot to do with this. In order to play for AA at any age, the player would have to either live in the community where it is based, or go to school there.

This would explain the before and after Tier I requests being denied as well. All the players on the Blades for example would have to live in or go to school in the community where it is based.

How could the Residency rule apply to Tier 1? In every other State it's a free for all. Team Wisconsin is a Before and After Team and they pull in Players from all over the entire State. What is the point of Tier 1 if they apply the residency rule?

[imlisteningtothefnsong]

I don't know if this link will provide more questions or more answers but I think I can connect a couple of the dots. It looks like it's here.

http://www.revolutiontier1hockey.com/pa ... ey-program

[SECoach]

I would bet that the U14 (boys) will fill up faster than anyone is ready for!! All of the 7th and 8th (some 9th) graders competing against "the best" competition in the country for two years before HS, playing 60+ games and for a National title. Then they can open enroll to the HS of their choice as a 9th grader.....it will fill up FAST!! I guess we will find out over the next few months.

I have heard that AA has lost almost all of their players (boys) that would make up the U18. Where will the new kids come from? Do the players have to attend AA to play Tier 1? (Similar to Shattuck) If they do, there does not seem to be any current players still around.

My GUESS is that the MN Hockey residence rule has a lot to do with this. In order to play for AA at any age, the player would have to either live in the community where it is based, or go to school there.

This would explain the before and after Tier I requests being denied as well. All the players on the Blades for example would have to live in or go to school in the community where it is based.

How could the Residency rule apply to Tier 1? In every other State it's a free for all. Team Wisconsin is a Before and After Team and they pull in Players from all over the entire State. What is the point of Tier 1 if they apply the residency rule?

Minnesota Hockey rules apply in Minnesota, and therefore "every other state" (especially Wisconsin) is irrelevant. Under the Minnesota Hockey rules, as I understand them, any Tier 1 team that is not school affiliated, would need to have all the players be from a single association, unless the waiver process was followed. This is why I'm guessing the status was granted to AA, and not to the others that requested before and after.

[Froggy Richards]

My GUESS is that the MN Hockey residence rule has a lot to do with this. In order to play for AA at any age, the player would have to either live in the community where it is based, or go to school there.

This would explain the before and after Tier I requests being denied as well. All the players on the Blades for example would have to live in or go to school in the community where it is based.

How could the Residency rule apply to Tier 1? In every other State it's a free for all. Team Wisconsin is a Before and After Team and they pull in Players from all over the entire State. What is the point of Tier 1 if they apply the residency rule?

Minnesota Hockey rules apply in Minnesota, and therefore "every other state" (especially Wisconsin) is irrelevant. Under the Minnesota Hockey rules, as I understand them, any Tier 1 team that is not school affiliated, would need to have all the players be from a single association, unless the waiver process was followed. This is why I'm guessing the status was granted to AA, and not to the others that requested before and after.

I see what you mean, that could be the reason. My point is that if they're going to allow Tier 1 Before and After in the future they're going to have to get rid of the residence rule. It's going to be pretty slim pickings with all of the best players in the Elite League and Before and After Juniors. They're going to need a lot more than one Association to find enough kids to sign up for Tier 1.

[greybeard58]

The inter state waiver also comes into play.

[Winter is Coming]

The way they set that up did not make sense at first but now it does. Saying that in order for them to play AAA they had to be all registered to the home associatin for the home for the AAA team really limits it. These kids will all have to join the association (or at least live in the district) and will have to be eligable to play for that association. That means that the transfer rules for youth hockey will apply along with all of the rest of the rules. It effectively does not allow that team to get off the ground. AA kids come from all over I am sure and most of their parents do not live in the district and have no interest in moving there. That means that the kid will have to get approval to transfer from one youth association to another to be eligable in that association so that they can play hockey for it. I wonder if they will be granted transfers out of their old ones and into the new association? You know that there are going to be some feet drug and etc. The before and after programs sound like a good idea on the surface but boy does it open up a can of worms for MN Hockey. Grant this group of before and after kids and execption to the rule and then you have let the camel get it's nose under the tent flap. This will fail for these reasons and MN HOckey will sing the from the roof tops that AAA does not work in MN. Very interesting way to slow down the arrival of AAA to MN.

[SCBlueLiner]

I am asking this because I obviously don't know the rules. If an association only offers B hockey can a player transfer to an association that offers A hockey and that transfer is automatically allowed because the player's "home" association does not offer the level of play they seek? Could a transfer rule be put in place automatically allowing transfer from Tier 2 associations to Tier 1?

[SECoach]

I am asking this because I obviously don't know the rules. If an association only offers B hockey can a player transfer to an association that offers A hockey and that transfer is automatically allowed because the player's "home" association does not offer the level of play they seek? Could a transfer rule be put in place automatically allowing transfer from Tier 2 associations to Tier 1?

No without a waiver from both associations.

[InigoMontoya]

And DD(s) approval.

[Froggy Richards]

The way they set that up did not make sense at first but now it does. Saying that in order for them to play AAA they had to be all registered to the home associatin for the home for the AAA team really limits it. These kids will all have to join the association (or at least live in the district) and will have to be eligable to play for that association. That means that the transfer rules for youth hockey will apply along with all of the rest of the rules. It effectively does not allow that team to get off the ground. AA kids come from all over I am sure and most of their parents do not live in the district and have no interest in moving there. That means that the kid will have to get approval to transfer from one youth association to another to be eligable in that association so that they can play hockey for it. I wonder if they will be granted transfers out of their old ones and into the new association? You know that there are going to be some feet drug and etc. The before and after programs sound like a good idea on the surface but boy does it open up a can of worms for MN Hockey. Grant this group of before and after kids and execption to the rule and then you have let the camel get it's nose under the tent flap. This will fail for these reasons and MN HOckey will sing the from the roof tops that AAA does not work in MN. Very interesting way to slow down the arrival of AAA to MN.

If they attend school at AAA they get an automatic waiver to play in the Assocation where the school is located. These types of waivers are just a formality and cannot be denied by either the Residence Association or the Destination Association.

[InigoMontoya]

What are the geographic boundaries for AA?

[Froggy Richards]

What are the geographic boundaries for AA?

They are a Private School so they don't have Geographic boundaries of their own. I don't know if anything is finalized yet, but it's believed that the North St. Paul Association is who they will partner with since that was a requirement of MN Hockey. So their "Students" will have options. They can play where they live, for North St. Paul Assoc., or for AAA. It remains to be seen if they will have their own Squirt and Peewee teams, or if those kids will just play for North St. Paul, since they will not be Tier 1 at those levels.

[JSR]

(remember Tier 1 AAA is birth year based not MN age cutoff based)

USA Hockey has two-year groupings for each division.

Next season:

Squirts - 2005 & 2004
Pee Wee - 2003 & 2002
Bantam - 2001 & 2000
16U - 1999 & 1998
18U - 1997 & 1996

Yes I know that, I think everyone on this board knows that. I realize the 2000's are Bantam majors and the 2001's are Bantam minors..... I also realize MN hockey has a different age cutoff than Tier 1 AAA hockey has with USA Hockey..... I don't get what question you are trying to give answers to with this info?