Goalies 2014-2015

[SWPrez]

Scites was at BSM before he left for AAA, then simply returned, but was on the outside looking in, so went to find hockey elsewhere. It's as easy as moving, which they were willing to do. This has nothing to do with BSM bending or breaking any rules, it's the same for everyone. And...we don't always know the whole story on timing, family situations, jobs, etc.

One thing that I'm surprised I've never heard discussed on here is, "What if you get cut from your High School team in 10th or 11th grade? I think you should have the right to be eligible right away at any other school. Maybe have the coach or AD sign a release or something. I would think that would be really hard on a kid who played his whole life and all of a sudden he's not eligible to go to the town next door and play if he wishes. Obviously if you're cut, you're not taking advantage of anything. You just want to play Varsity Hockey.

Great idea. Would also probably raise the level of Varsity hockey played as programs in desperate need of players could fill their teams with some talented players who get cut at some larger schools. Also, isn't it keeping with USA Hockey's development model. Some kids develop late. By giving them an opportunity to continue playing there will be some kids who take advantage of that and develop into great players. The system now just wastes some potential talent that is out there by cutting them.

A perfect example of why the transfer rule should be scrapped and changed to one sentence....You are allowed one transfer for ANY reason between 9th & 12th grade.

Not fair that kids of divorced parents, $$$ families with multiple homes, or those with furniture-less apartments in a far off community, etc. can game the system, while others just see their high school hockey dreams ended. One transfer for everyone...second transfer sits a year of varsity eligibility.

[badgermom78]

I think what SWPrez makes sense BUT I don't think it is better than the current situation. What I mean is that you need to pick the LESSER of the evils and I believe the current system does that.

SWPrez proposal is going to lead to opportunities for the kids that are making the transfer but they are going to negatively impact someone else and cause them to be cut from the team so they move to a new school and so on.

It could also lead to parents meddling and building "super" teams.

The current system has it's issues too but I think there are less issues than allowing for 1 transfer per student.

There will never be a perfect system so pick one that has the least amount of issues.

[Wet Paint]

On the other hand the current system does make a transfer possible but work. It stops those kids from jumping from team to team to get the best possible deal. Sure, there are cheaters but there will always be. Maybe what they need to do is to keep the current rules in place and enforce them. Actually investigate and penalize the receiving schools if there is an infraction. Make it a big penalty while you are at it. Right now it is the old boys wink wink nudge nudge deal in too many places. How many kids go from high school A to high school B and try for a varsity team? Can't be that many. Check them out and nail the cheaters and balance the playing field for all of the kids.

[bleedblue]

Okay, the thread has changed direction somewhat to take us down the path of Transfers, since so many goalies are using this rule to to find a net to tend. Let's face it, the Transfer Rule-Change of Residence requirement is being abused. Athletes, and their parents, have used it as their version of Open Enrollment. One school has benefitted in the last two years by having no less than 5 varsity hockey players simply change their residence and enroll in the new school without sitting out a year of competition. 5 players! In several cases the new student's residence was actually closer to the school they departed than the house they moved out of. Absurd. This was not the intent or the spirit of the Transfer Rule. Change is necessary. But, if there is a will, they have found the way. Solution: If someone plays varsity high school sports and transfers schools, they sit out a year of varsity competition. This will put an end to the abuse overnight. *Special cases reviewed by MSHSL committee.

[HockeyTalk18]

SWPrez

you seem to have good info regarding BSM, regarding the topic of transfers, how is BSM getting away with the HS Varsity players going there from another HS Varsity team with no penalty? looks like there has been Blake kids making the jump and a Totino kid all going Varsity to Varsity (maybe others? maybe not). are they really all just getting apartments and jackin the system? the coach/AD all ok with that? wasn't Pauly a previous President of the HS coaches association?. Both Blake and Totino have Awesome schools and pretty darn good hockey, so why the transfer? and how?

[SCBlueLiner]

I think what SWPrez makes sense BUT I don't think it is better than the current situation. What I mean is that you need to pick the LESSER of the evils and I believe the current system does that.

SWPrez proposal is going to lead to opportunities for the kids that are making the transfer but they are going to negatively impact someone else and cause them to be cut from the team so they move to a new school and so on.

It could also lead to parents meddling and building "super" teams.

The current system has it's issues too but I think there are less issues than allowing for 1 transfer per student.

There will never be a perfect system so pick one that has the least amount of issues.

I think what SWPrez says makes sense too, but a 1-time transfer rule would open things up to super teams being more likely. Also, the one-time transfer could also get a kid cut at the school the potential player is transferring into setting up a domino effect of transfers and cuts.

The simplest rule would be if a player gets cut from Varsity he can transfer to another school to play Varsity without penalty. It would involve the signatures of the cutting school, openly waiving that player, and signatures of the receiving school. Schools aren't cutting top players. This rule would give those 3rd or 4th liners who get cut a chance to finish out their playing days at a school that wants, and most likely, needs players. Obviously most players being cut aren't playing because they think they will make the NHL someday, they are playing because they love the game. What's wrong with giving these players an option and at the same time helping out Varsity programs with such low depth the school is in danger of cutting the hockey program?

If it sounds too much like pro sports or that kids are supposed to be students first, well, when you've been playing hockey since you were 4 yrs old and somebody tells you that you can't play anymore, that's pretty cruel. Changing schools so you can keep playing sounds like a great idea. I'd totally give up where I went to high school (academics at the 2 schools being equal) in order to finish out my "career".

[SWPrez]

SWPrez

you seem to have good info regarding BSM, regarding the topic of transfers, how is BSM getting away with the HS Varsity players going there from another HS Varsity team with no penalty? looks like there has been Blake kids making the jump and a Totino kid all going Varsity to Varsity (maybe others? maybe not). are they really all just getting apartments and jackin the system? the coach/AD all ok with that? wasn't Pauly a previous President of the HS coaches association?. Both Blake and Totino have Awesome schools and pretty darn good hockey, so why the transfer? and how?

I think that all of the BSM transfers over the last four years have been legit under the MN High School Hockey Rules. I think over the last three or four years, you had:

O'Borsky - transfer from Red Wing, father had moved from Red Wing.
J. Johnson - transfer from Hill Murray, address change to property in Minnetonka from Afton.
Austin - transfer from Blake, family changed address.
Naas - transfer from Blake, I believe family lived in Minnetonka and also had Tonka lake cottage that they remodeled to live in.
Roo - transfer from Totino - I believe there was an address change.

I may be missing some transfers, but all of these are legit. The rule allows for address change, or if there is a divorce a player can jump back in forth. No varsity time missed. Can't beat Pauly up on these -- the players wanted to make a jump to a high profile AA program and their fortunate circumstances allowed it. But, all are a case in point as to why I think that all kids should be allowed one transfer only regardless of their address or family situation.

Getting back to goalies...I think Stauber had an address deal due to a divorced parent situation that allowed a transfer from BSM. Not sure on Seitz - as he didn't play last year, maybe he was able to transfer before the rule would apply to him. We will see if he shows up on a roster.

[SidneysDogHouse]

SWPrez

you seem to have good info regarding BSM, regarding the topic of transfers, how is BSM getting away with the HS Varsity players going there from another HS Varsity team with no penalty? looks like there has been Blake kids making the jump and a Totino kid all going Varsity to Varsity (maybe others? maybe not). are they really all just getting apartments and jackin the system? the coach/AD all ok with that? wasn't Pauly a previous President of the HS coaches association?. Both Blake and Totino have Awesome schools and pretty darn good hockey, so why the transfer? and how?

I think that all of the BSM transfers over the last four years have been legit under the MN High School Hockey Rules. I think over the last three or four years, you had:

O'Borsky - transfer from Red Wing, father had moved from Red Wing.
J. Johnson - transfer from Hill Murray, address change to property in Minnetonka from Afton.
Austin - transfer from Blake, family changed address.
Naas - transfer from Blake, I believe family lived in Minnetonka and also had Tonka lake cottage that they remodeled to live in.
Roo - transfer from Totino - I believe there was an address change.

I may be missing some transfers, but all of these are legit. The rule allows for address change, or if there is a divorce a player can jump back in forth. No varsity time missed. Can't beat Pauly up on these -- the players wanted to make a jump to a high profile AA program and their fortunate circumstances allowed it. But, all are a case in point as to why I think that all kids should be allowed one transfer only regardless of their address or family situation.

Getting back to goalies...I think Stauber had an address deal due to a divorced parent situation that allowed a transfer from BSM. Not sure on Seitz - as he didn't play last year, maybe he was able to transfer before the rule would apply to him. We will see if he shows up on a roster.

And to add to the list of transfers, I believe there are two or three BSM transfers coming in this year, and all moved. They had a couple others in past years including Long from Rosemount, who moved.

As far as transfers go, who can fault a kid who wants to jump from Class A to AA? Who can fault coaches who allow it to happen? I know this will ignite a heated debate, but private schools don't have "feeder" associations, in most cases, that allow a constant flow of talent. Why do you think the rules aren't changed even after an attorney tried last year? If the rule goes away, so does MN hockey, sorry, it's the truth. There aren't many Edina's or Wayzata's out there, and even those teams see some ebb and flow in talent (although it doesn't seem like it lately). Without some sort of "open enrollment" Hill, BSM, St. Thomas etc. would struggle.

If you want the rule to go away, it would be as simple as not allowing a transfer within the MSHSL after 9th grade, period. Those who move in, or didn't play in MN the previous year, can come into programs, but must sit out one year. I think the rule was originally supposed to work this way, but the "move" part was opened to interpretation, or rather, left to interpretation.

With that said, I think we need to move the transfer discussion to a new thread and leave this one as it was started...goalies!

Speaking of which, I think Stauber saw the writing on the wall and wanted to play, and just so happens to have a residence there and a connection through a family business. Scites was able to transfer out/in because they moved. I don't believe they had moved from MG yet, so with a slight change in plan they made PL their new home. Not having played in MN yet, he was sort of "exempt" from the above discussion and free to do as he wished.

[MWS coach]

So if I go public to Private, or Private to Private I can move from anywhere to anywhere? Correct me if I am wrong, but private schools do not have a geographic area in which you are required to live in to enroll in their school. Advantage privates which can effectively work the system much easier to add a transfer our two "within the rules" by simply moving down the street. I may be wrong about this, but I don't think so.

[Nevertoomuchhockey]

So if I go public to Private, or Private to Private I can move from anywhere to anywhere? Correct me if I am wrong, but private schools do not have a geographic area in which you are required to live in to enroll in their school. Advantage privates which can effectively work the system much easier to add a transfer our two "within the rules" by simply moving down the street. I may be wrong about this, but I don't think so.

Not true. Same rules apply private to private. Only "exception" is private to public where families can petition financial hardship.

IMHO the biggest issue is that no one is reporting the cheaters and on the rare cases they are, MSHL hasn't investigated or declared ineligible or forced sanctions against the athletes and programs involved. Last year's AA perfect example. In the very rare case the issue is addressed as their own rules stipulate, it's such a secretive process with so few consequences that it doesn't serve as a deterrent to either the school or other families who will go to extreme lengths to preserve eligibility at varsity.

So here are some tough questions.... Whether it directly influences your kid or program or not.... Under what circumstances would you skirt the rules? What does that say to your kid? And would you turn in a player or program for either one time or systemic cheating in regards to transfers? And what should the athlete, coach and program, school AD, and MSHL be mandated to do?

[Froggy Richards]

SWPrez

you seem to have good info regarding BSM, regarding the topic of transfers, how is BSM getting away with the HS Varsity players going there from another HS Varsity team with no penalty? looks like there has been Blake kids making the jump and a Totino kid all going Varsity to Varsity (maybe others? maybe not). are they really all just getting apartments and jackin the system? the coach/AD all ok with that? wasn't Pauly a previous President of the HS coaches association?. Both Blake and Totino have Awesome schools and pretty darn good hockey, so why the transfer? and how?

I think that all of the BSM transfers over the last four years have been legit under the MN High School Hockey Rules. I think over the last three or four years, you had:

O'Borsky - transfer from Red Wing, father had moved from Red Wing.
J. Johnson - transfer from Hill Murray, address change to property in Minnetonka from Afton.
Austin - transfer from Blake, family changed address.
Naas - transfer from Blake, I believe family lived in Minnetonka and also had Tonka lake cottage that they remodeled to live in.
Roo - transfer from Totino - I believe there was an address change.

I may be missing some transfers, but all of these are legit. The rule allows for address change, or if there is a divorce a player can jump back in forth. No varsity time missed. Can't beat Pauly up on these -- the players wanted to make a jump to a high profile AA program and their fortunate circumstances allowed it. But, all are a case in point as to why I think that all kids should be allowed one transfer only regardless of their address or family situation.

Getting back to goalies...I think Stauber had an address deal due to a divorced parent situation that allowed a transfer from BSM. Not sure on Seitz - as he didn't play last year, maybe he was able to transfer before the rule would apply to him. We will see if he shows up on a roster.

If you want the rule to go away, it would be as simple as not allowing a transfer within the MSHSL after 9th grade, period. Those who move in, or didn't play in MN the previous year, can come into programs, but must sit out one year. I think the rule was originally supposed to work this way, but the "move" part was opened to interpretation, or rather, left to interpretation.

No, the rule was not supposed to work that way. Think about what you're saying. There's a perfectly good reason the moving is allowed. Families are forced to move all the time because of job transfers or losing and finding a new job. Is it your position that their kids should be told, "Sorry that you have to move, leave all of your friends and everything you've ever known, and by the way, you also can't play Varsity sports at your new school?" That amounts to cruel and unusual punishment in my opinion.

[Froggy Richards]

SWPrez

you seem to have good info regarding BSM, regarding the topic of transfers, how is BSM getting away with the HS Varsity players going there from another HS Varsity team with no penalty? looks like there has been Blake kids making the jump and a Totino kid all going Varsity to Varsity (maybe others? maybe not). are they really all just getting apartments and jackin the system? the coach/AD all ok with that? wasn't Pauly a previous President of the HS coaches association?. Both Blake and Totino have Awesome schools and pretty darn good hockey, so why the transfer? and how?

Getting back to goalies...I think Stauber had an address deal due to a divorced parent situation that allowed a transfer from BSM. Not sure on Seitz - as he didn't play last year, maybe he was able to transfer before the rule would apply to him. We will see if he shows up on a roster.

Doesn't matter if he played last year or not. If he was enrolled at ANY school, ANYWHERE in the country and was in 9th grade or higher, the rule applies to him.

[SCBlueLiner]

Ok, so what I am reading about the transfer rule is, let's say hypothetically speaking, I was a junior last year in Albany, NY. My dad's corporation transferred him to Minneapolis so the whole family moved across the country. I enroll in school at White Bear Lake and want to try out for the varsity hockey team. Now, because I was enrolled in high school somewhere else in the country my junior year I cannot play varsity hockey my senior year, no matter how good I am. Do I have that correct?

What a stupid rule.

[almostashappy]

So here are some tough questions.... Whether it directly influences your kid or program or not.... Under what circumstances would you skirt the rules? What does that say to your kid? And would you turn in a player or program for either one time or systemic cheating in regards to transfers? And what should the athlete, coach and program, school AD, and MSHL be mandated to do?

Lots of questions.

It's easy for me to say that I would never skirt the transfer rules, because you have to have a certain mind set that I lack. Like most folks, I also lack the financial resources required to do some of the more popular hacks to the system (e.g. renting an empty apartment in the desired high school collection area).

Now, if you wanted to broaden your moral challenge, ask about skirting all of the MSHSL's rules. Like the ones that ban the consumption of alcohol, even if the student is somewhere he/she is legal to do so (e.g. 18yo senior on spring break in Mexico, or in Wisconsin under parental supervision).

[almostashappy]

Ok, so what I am reading about the transfer rule is, let's say hypothetically speaking, I was a junior last year in Albany, NY. My dad's corporation transferred him to Minneapolis so the whole family moved across the country. I enroll in school at White Bear Lake and want to try out for the varsity hockey team. Now, because I was enrolled in high school somewhere else in the country my junior year I cannot play varsity hockey my senior year, no matter how good I am. Do I have that correct?

What a stupid rule.

No, you don't have it correct (assuming that I'm correctly reading your hypothetical, and that you moved into the WBL district). If you physically move into a high school collection area, you are immediately eligible to play varsity for that high school, whether you are moving from across town, or from across the country.

[HockeyTalk18]

SWPrez

Thanks for your input, I guess the intent of the rule VS how it can be viewed are up to each, making sure a kid who truly moves due to his family work situation VS hey I want to play AA hockey are not in the same boat, one is forced to move HS's the other was not, correct?. More curiosity than concern for me because I still believe those who can play past HS usually do, regardless of where they played HS.

[Froggy Richards]

Ok, so what I am reading about the transfer rule is, let's say hypothetically speaking, I was a junior last year in Albany, NY. My dad's corporation transferred him to Minneapolis so the whole family moved across the country. I enroll in school at White Bear Lake and want to try out for the varsity hockey team. Now, because I was enrolled in high school somewhere else in the country my junior year I cannot play varsity hockey my senior year, no matter how good I am. Do I have that correct?

What a stupid rule.

No, my response was about the goalie who left to play a year of AAA and the family supposedly never moved. The previous poster speculated that since he didn't play MSHSL the previous year that the rule didn't apply to him. It does. In your hypothetical scenario above, the family moved. So he is eligible.

[Froggy Richards]

So here are some tough questions.... Whether it directly influences your kid or program or not.... Under what circumstances would you skirt the rules? What does that say to your kid? And would you turn in a player or program for either one time or systemic cheating in regards to transfers? And what should the athlete, coach and program, school AD, and MSHL be mandated to do?

Lots of questions.

It's easy for me to say that I would never skirt the transfer rules, because you have to have a certain mind set that I lack. Like most folks, I also lack the financial resources required to do some of the more popular hacks to the system (e.g. renting an empty apartment in the desired high school collection area).

Now, if you wanted to broaden your moral challenge, ask about skirting all of the MSHSL's rules. Like the ones that ban the consumption of alcohol, even if the student is somewhere he/she is legal to do so (e.g. 18yo senior on spring break in Mexico, or in Wisconsin under parental supervision).

It seems like the renting an empty apartment example always comes up. If it was reported and investigated, you would be declared ineligible and your team would forfeit every game you played in. In today's HS Hockey climate, If you're that good and swung the balance of power that much, someone would notice and you would be reported. That's a hell of a risk to take. Look at Achiever last year. As soon as they made the section final and looked like a shoo in to state, it was immediately found out and reported that they were cheating. I'm guessing that this empty apartment thing almost never happens. If you have the resources to rent an empty apartment, you probably have the resources to just flat out move for a year or two. Wouldn't that be the much better idea?

Great point on the Alcohol thing. Everyone is a moral policeman when it comes to the transfer thing, but I've never seen a discussion on here about 50% of HS Hockey players chewing Kodiak on the bus on the way home from games like we used to do. I guess some rules matter and others don't.

[almostashappy]

It seems like the renting an empty apartment example always comes up. If it was reported and investigated, you would be declared ineligible and your team would forfeit every game you played in. In today's HS Hockey climate, If you're that good and swung the balance of power that much, someone would notice and you would be reported. That's a hell of a risk to take. Look at Achiever last year. As soon as they made the section final and looked like a shoo in to state, it was immediately found out and reported that they were cheating. I'm guessing that this empty apartment thing almost never happens. If you have the resources to rent an empty apartment, you probably have the resources to just flat out move for a year or two. Wouldn't that be the much better idea?

I don't know about being so brazen as to not move into a rented apartment and leave it as little more than an unfurnished mail drop. A more credible scheme would be to do as you suggest, and actually furnish the place and have at least part of the family unit live there for a year. All the while, there's a "For Sale By Owner" sign in front of your house. But the asking price is way above market, so it never sells. And after a year of "trying" to move, you reluctantly give up, drop the apartment lease, and "return" to your unsold house. And if your kid was a senior, there's little chance of blow-back.

As for getting caught, I think that the key phrase in your scenario is that the player is "that good and swung the balance of power that much." If it's just one family and if the kid isn't the stand-out star on his new team then there wouldn't be much motivation for someone outside of the specific program to start snooping around. There's a better chance that other families within that program would know what the story is, but there's little motivation for them to make waves and blow the whistle. Best shot would be the disgruntled parent who was convinced that the move-in kid stole their Little Johnny's roster spot. And even they might not cry foul if there were younger brothers still in the pipeline.

Great point on the Alcohol thing. Everyone is a moral policeman when it comes to the transfer thing, but I've never seen a discussion on here about 50% of HS Hockey players chewing Kodiak on the bus on the way home from games like we used to do. I guess some rules matter and others don't.

So the other 50% were Copenhagen guys?

[SCBlueLiner]

Ok, so what I am reading about the transfer rule is, let's say hypothetically speaking, I was a junior last year in Albany, NY. My dad's corporation transferred him to Minneapolis so the whole family moved across the country. I enroll in school at White Bear Lake and want to try out for the varsity hockey team. Now, because I was enrolled in high school somewhere else in the country my junior year I cannot play varsity hockey my senior year, no matter how good I am. Do I have that correct?

What a stupid rule.

No, my response was about the goalie who left to play a year of AAA and the family supposedly never moved. The previous poster speculated that since he didn't play MSHSL the previous year that the rule didn't apply to him. It does. In your hypothetical scenario above, the family moved. So he is eligible.

Thanks for the clarification.

[puckbreath]

It would be much easier, and quicker to list the rules that DO apply/are enforced, vs the ones that aren't worth the paper they're wrote on, and are openly mocked.

[WestMetro]

I don't see Holy Family goalies posted to their roster yet?

[MNHockeyFan]

Just curious: Did the girl who decided to play with the Andover boys this season end up making their varsity?

[SidneysDogHouse]

I don't see Holy Family goalies posted to their roster yet?

Heifort/Stauber

Any goalie surprises? Could be a very interesting year in the nets.

[northwoods oldtimer]

I don't see Holy Family goalies posted to their roster yet?

Heifort/Stauber

Any goalie surprises? Could be a very interesting year in the nets.

Somebody should have done a little research before heading south!