Duluth Marshall Announces they are opting up to AA.

[thestickler07]

Looks like the opt up floodgates are open, if Hermantown goes we might as well have a 2 tier system.

Will allow for 2 true northern sections though, maybe Warroad decides its time as well and makes the jump.

[Froggy Richards]

Rochester Century, Bemidji, St. Thomas, Cloquet, Grand Rapids, Benilde, Holy Angels, Hill-Murray, and Roseau opted up.

New Ulm, LeSeuer, Minneapolis, Como Park, and Minnehaha petitioned down.
I think 1 more program went to A but I'm not sure who it would be.

Denfeld has AA enrollment but plays A. I believe that is because they factor in Free/Reduced lunch kids.

No, Denfeld doesn't have AA enrollment, even without free/reduced calculations. Not even close, really. The enrollment disparity between East and Denfeld is huge.

As for Marshall opting up, I applaud it. Welcome to the big leagues, boys. It's great for northern hockey. Whether it will help them draw more quality players, it's hard to say; a lot goes into that. This year would definitely seem to be their short-term peak.

My bad, I thought they did. That is hard to believe with only two High Schools in a city of 80,000.

[Froggy Richards]

Good for Marshall, as a past parent I would expect nothing less from the na Sayers wanting Hermantown to move up. People move in to haha but we have different guidelines than private school. Make it equal and see if they can play AA. NOT!

As a long time mn hockey player lets go back to one tourney where small town pride making state tourney really meant something.

What different guidelines are you referring to? All you have to do to play in Hermantown is open enroll, how hard is that? No different than going to Marshall, except you save the $20,000.

[MNHockeyFan]

My bad, I thought they did. That is hard to believe with only two High Schools in a city of 80,000.

Well, three counting Marshall. But that's still a far cry from when I lived there, when there were five: East, Central, Denfeld, Morgan Park and Cathedral (now Marshall). Like many places, the population has aged - not as many young families having kids.

[HShockeywatcher]

The MSHSL lists enrollments as adjusted for free/reduced lunch rates. For example the MSHSL lists Highland Park with an enrollment of 1009, the St. Paul school district lists Highland Park with an enrollment of 1196.

Does anyone know where to find current enrollment numbers? The ones on the MSHSL site are 3 years old and not accurate.

[Froggy Richards]

Deleted.

[karl(east)]

The MSHSL lists enrollments as adjusted for free/reduced lunch rates. For example the MSHSL lists Highland Park with an enrollment of 1009, the St. Paul school district lists Highland Park with an enrollment of 1196.

Does anyone know where to find current enrollment numbers? The ones on the MSHSL site are 3 years old and not accurate.

I can't find a complete list anywhere, but if you go to any individual school's page, it's listed there.

Denfeld is at 896 there, with the free/reduced lunch adjustment. The actual number is around 1,000.

As for why the student population is so small for a city of its size, it has a lot to do with population trends. I believe the school-age population bottomed out last year, and is rebounding in the early grades. (Duluth's average population has actually gotten younger in the past few years, for the first time in a very long time.) That should trickle up to the high schools as kids age.

Denfeld's small enrollment is compounded by several issues, including heavy open enrollment into neighboring districts. Going from 3 public high schools to 2 also, unfortunately, made it very easy to label one the "good" one and the other the "bad" one. There may be some fishy line drawing, as East's student body continues to grow toward the point of overcrowding. And because Denfeld is smaller, it can't offer as many classes, which pushes more people out...it becomes a vicious cycle. The west side is still bouncing back from the collapse of the industrial economy in the 80s, though there are signs that things are getting better out that way.

[observer]

With declining numbers, like the girls, could there be just one co-op public school boys hockey team in the future? I didn't go to youth site and count the number of teams.

[elliott70]

The MSHSL lists enrollments as adjusted for free/reduced lunch rates. For example the MSHSL lists Highland Park with an enrollment of 1009, the St. Paul school district lists Highland Park with an enrollment of 1196.

Does anyone know where to find current enrollment numbers? The ones on the MSHSL site are 3 years old and not accurate.

I can't find a complete list anywhere, but if you go to any individual school's page, it's listed there.

Denfeld is at 896 there, with the free/reduced lunch adjustment. The actual number is around 1,000.

As for why the student population is so small for a city of its size, it has a lot to do with population trends. I believe the school-age population bottomed out last year, and is rebounding in the early grades. (Duluth's average population has actually gotten younger in the past few years, for the first time in a very long time.) That should trickle up to the high schools as kids age.

Denfeld's small enrollment is compounded by several issues, including heavy open enrollment into neighboring districts. Going from 3 public high schools to 2 also, unfortunately, made it very easy to label one the "good" one and the other the "bad" one. There may be some fishy line drawing, as East's student body continues to grow toward the point of overcrowding. And because Denfeld is smaller, it can't offer as many classes, which pushes more people out...it becomes a vicious cycle. The west side is still bouncing back from the collapse of the industrial economy in the 80s, though there are signs that things are getting better out that way.

So you are an east end cake-eater and not a transfer.

[HShockeywatcher]

Looks like the opt up floodgates are open, if Hermantown goes we might as well have a 2 tier system.

Will allow for 2 true northern sections though, maybe Warroad decides its time as well and makes the jump.

I've never been a fan of opting for this reason. With a few exceptions, it really seems to be a MN hockey thing.

Anyone know of other places around the country where you can change classes?

[MNHockeyFan]

With a few exceptions, it really seems to be a MN hockey thing.

The biggest of which may be Totino-Grace in football, opting up two classes in football, and coming within a point of winning it all this year against a school three times its size.

[HShockeywatcher]

With a few exceptions, it really seems to be a MN hockey thing.

The biggest of which may be Totino-Grace in football, opting up two classes in football, and coming within a point of winning it all this year against a school three times its size.

Right. Henry won the AAAA basketball title 4 years in a row around the turn of the century as a AAA school too.

These, however, are exceptions, not the rule. The best example was Yates High school who was had the best basketball team in the nation for 3 or 4 years running and they weren't in the top class in their own state.
Braham was considered one of the best basketball teams in MN for a few years despite playing only a dozen teams classes up in that time.
The lists go on. Bigger is usually better for obvious reasons, but it doesn't define it. Most states that I know of simply don't allow teams to opt up; you're in the class you're assigned.

[Traxler]

With a few exceptions, it really seems to be a MN hockey thing.

The biggest of which may be Totino-Grace in football, opting up two classes in football, and coming within a point of winning it all this year against a school three times its size.

Right. Henry won the AAAA basketball title 4 years in a row around the turn of the century as a AAA school too.

These, however, are exceptions, not the rule. The best example was Yates High school who was had the best basketball team in the nation for 3 or 4 years running and they weren't in the top class in their own state.
Braham was considered one of the best basketball teams in MN for a few years despite playing only a dozen teams classes up in that time.
The lists go on. Bigger is usually better for obvious reasons, but it doesn't define it. Most states that I know of simply don't allow teams to opt up; you're in the class you're assigned.

Maybe this is a question for a different thread, but why did MN hockey switch to a two class system back in 1994? Was there a problem with single class hockey? Did certain teams complain that they rarely could make it to state and when they did they just lost early anyway?

I have never understood why we need multiple classes in Hockey, especially with single A dominated by so few teams. I guess you could say that AA is dominated by only a few teams as well...

[Froggy Richards]

The biggest of which may be Totino-Grace in football, opting up two classes in football, and coming within a point of winning it all this year against a school three times its size.

Right. Henry won the AAAA basketball title 4 years in a row around the turn of the century as a AAA school too.

These, however, are exceptions, not the rule. The best example was Yates High school who was had the best basketball team in the nation for 3 or 4 years running and they weren't in the top class in their own state.
Braham was considered one of the best basketball teams in MN for a few years despite playing only a dozen teams classes up in that time.
The lists go on. Bigger is usually better for obvious reasons, but it doesn't define it. Most states that I know of simply don't allow teams to opt up; you're in the class you're assigned.

Maybe this is a question for a different thread, but why did MN hockey switch to a two class system back in 1994? Was there a problem with single class hockey? Did certain teams complain that they rarely could make it to state and when they did they just lost early anyway?

I have never understood why we need multiple classes in Hockey, especially with single A dominated by so few teams. I guess you could say that AA is dominated by only a few teams as well...

It actually switched from one class in 1992. At the time, they said they wanted to give the smaller schools a chance to go to State. The irony of it was that in 1990 Roseau and Grand Rapids met in the Championship game with Roseau winning it. In 1991, Hill Murry won it, who could also be Single A by enrollment if they chose.

[HShockeywatcher]

Maybe this is a question for a different thread, but why did MN hockey switch to a two class system back in 1994? Was there a problem with single class hockey? Did certain teams complain that they rarely could make it to state and when they did they just lost early anyway?

I have never understood why we need multiple classes in Hockey, especially with single A dominated by so few teams. I guess you could say that AA is dominated by only a few teams as well...

It actually switched from one class in 1992. At the time, they said they wanted to give the smaller schools a chance to go to State. The irony of it was that in 1990 Roseau and Grand Rapids met in the Championship game with Roseau winning it. In 1991, Hill Murry won it, who could also be Single A by enrollment if they chose.

This is easily solved if you have to qualify for the playoffs. Instead of having a system where you have a bunch of wasted games in the playoffs, you have play X teams, once or twice, and the top group makes the playoffs.

I see very little downside to this, in any sport. It would make the teams and individuals who are actually good get the opportunity to shine and not have bad teams or individuals at state because they were the best of a bad region in a particular year.

[MNHockeyFan]

The best example was Yates High school who was had the best basketball team in the nation for 3 or 4 years running and they weren't in the top class in their own state.
Braham was considered one of the best basketball teams in MN for a few years despite playing only a dozen teams classes up in that time.
The lists go on. Bigger is usually better for obvious reasons, but it doesn't define it.

Basketball is different than hockey, and even more different than football, because two or three big studs (top D1 talent) along with other average players is all you need to match up against any sized school.

[HShockeywatcher]

The best example was Yates High school who was had the best basketball team in the nation for 3 or 4 years running and they weren't in the top class in their own state.
Braham was considered one of the best basketball teams in MN for a few years despite playing only a dozen teams classes up in that time.
The lists go on. Bigger is usually better for obvious reasons, but it doesn't define it.

Basketball is different than hockey, and even more different than football, because two or three big studs (top D1 talent) along with other average players is all you need to match up against any sized school.

Yes, all sports are different. As I said, though, the examples go on and on and come up on a regular basis in all sorts of different sports.
The idea that class defines ability is not a common trait of many sports around the country, or even in MN.

[Nevertoomuchhockey]

Good for Marshall, as a past parent I would expect nothing less from the na Sayers wanting Hermantown to move up. People move in to haha but we have different guidelines than private school. Make it equal and see if they can play AA. NOT!

As a long time mn hockey player lets go back to one tourney where small town pride making state tourney really meant something.

What are the different guidelines of which you speak? Please explain the inequality that prevents Hermantown from moving up.

[goldy313]

Looks like the opt up floodgates are open, if Hermantown goes we might as well have a 2 tier system.

Will allow for 2 true northern sections though, maybe Warroad decides its time as well and makes the jump.

I've never been a fan of opting for this reason. With a few exceptions, it really seems to be a MN hockey thing.

Anyone know of other places around the country where you can change classes?

Not everyone does it soley by enrollment, see California and the Ohio article below. The top 6 states in terms of kids participating in high school sports:

*Texas allows opt ups
*California puts teams into divisions (sections) based on geography, then each division puts schools into classes as they see fit. AD's then vote on the alignment, presumably you can opt up. They also have an open division in football in which any school can compete.
*Pennsylvania allows opt ups but they have an extremely low threshold for classes, 492 students and below make up 3 of their 4 football classes with 493 and above being in 1 class. Basketball and baseball are similar.
*Ohio allows opt ups, nice article here on multipliers and private schools: http://highschoolsports.cleveland.com/n ... e-schools/
*Illinois allows schools to opt up prior to each season, if that happens another school is allowed to go down.
*Michigan allows schools to opt up

Interstingly a number of states including Connecticut, Illinois, Indiana, and Nevada move schools up a class based on past success.

[Nevertoomuchhockey]

Good for Marshall, as a past parent I would expect nothing less from the na Sayers wanting Hermantown to move up. People move in to haha but we have different guidelines than private school. Make it equal and see if they can play AA. NOT!

As a long time mn hockey player lets go back to one tourney where small town pride making state tourney really meant something.

What are the different guidelines of which you speak? Please explain the inequality that prevents Hermantown from moving up.