Grand Rapids

greenway1969 · Post by **greenway1969** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 10:16 am

"Orange" colored glasses have been proven to have the ability to distort reality.

TheHockeyDJ · Post by **TheHockeyDJ** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 10:47 am

alcloseshaver wrote:
TheHockeyDJ wrote:
alcloseshaver wrote:Possible scenarios, GR beats ER then loses to East and ER beats East and has a much better overall record without playing so many class A schools. The debating will be endless. ER beats GR but loses to East and GR beats East. Head spinning yet? 7AA is the best for seeding arguments. If ER can finally get a win tonight it would go a long ways towards securing the coveted 1 seed. Wait? What? I forgot about the "Randolph Factor"...
So many Class A schools? Rapids dumped at least 3 Class A games because of that argument, also I hate that blind classification where people label teams talent wise based solely on what class they are in. Given the NWSC is down this year, I would say Grand Rapids plays a MUCH tougher schedule than Elk River, particularly after this weekend. Teams like Duluth Marshall and Hermantown are far better than Blaine/Maple Grove this year, not even close.
With all due respect DJ the NWSC is basically a two-tiered league. The are some very weak programs but the top half is always going to be as good as anyone in the state, see Blaine over Hill, Centennial Vs East. Andover and MG burgeoning youth programs. I love the passion but to say those teams are Far Better than Blaine and it's not even close might lead me to believe your coffee was little strong this morning.

Sorry, just the way I see it. Most years in the past I would agree Elk River had tougher sledding, but when you play teams like Osseo, Champlin Park, and Irondale, you can't say Elk River is playing a tough schedule down the stretch. I'll give you Blaine in the NWSC, no one else though. Rapids plays 4 of the top 5 in Class A and #11 Denfeld. They're also playing Wayzata, WBL, and Moorhead all on the road in Jan/Feb. Hermantown and Duluth East are also on the road. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Greenway1969 is simply going on the past and offers nothing analytical in comparing these schedules. Bottom line is tonight's game is important now and no need to think about a beats b, b beats c, c beats a scenario until it happens. I think the "green" colored lenses distort reality far more, also I'm having some coffee, not Bovey marijuana.

alcloseshaver · Post by **alcloseshaver** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 10:55 am

Thanks for giving us Blaine, no Love for Centennial? I'm seeing Rapids on about 16 wins if all goes well. Hope for a clean well played game tonight.

TheHockeyDJ · Post by **TheHockeyDJ** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:35 am

alcloseshaver wrote:Thanks for giving us Blaine, no Love for Centennial? I'm seeing Rapids on about 16 wins if all goes well. Hope for a clean well played game tonight.

Centennial did have a nice win against East. For Rapids they just don't have any long stretches of soft competition like in the past when they played home and away against all the IRC teams, thankfully those days are gone (for some, I repeat, gone, in the past, not 2014). I hope with Marshall moving to AA that Rapids can schedule them twice and drop I Falls off the schedule entirely.

alcloseshaver · Post by **alcloseshaver** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 2:51 pm

TheHockeyDJ wrote:
alcloseshaver wrote:Thanks for giving us Blaine, no Love for Centennial? I'm seeing Rapids on about 16 wins if all goes well. Hope for a clean well played game tonight.

Centennial did have a nice win against East. For Rapids they just don't have any long stretches of soft competition like in the past when they played home and away against all the IRC teams, thankfully those days are gone (for some, I repeat, gone, in the past, not 2014). I hope with Marshall moving to AA that Rapids can schedule them twice and drop I Falls off the schedule entirely.

Ialmost forgot about Andover from the downtrodden NWSC that tied East with a girl goalie.

MNHockeyFan · Post by **MNHockeyFan** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:03 pm

alcloseshaver wrote:I almost forgot about Andover from the downtrodden NWSC that tied East with a girl goalie.

Not to rub salt in the wound but she'll be playing for Duluth* next season.

*Minnesota-Duluth women's team

greenway1969 · Post by **greenway1969** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:29 pm

NWSC best wins:
Centennial - Duluth East
Blaine - Moorhead, Hill-Murray
Elk River - Wayzata
Andover - Duluth East (tie)

Northern Teams best wins:
Duluth East - STMA
Grand Rapids - Bemidji
Cloquet - Mounds View

I would say that the NWSC is doing better than the Northern Teams. The three Northern Teams do not have one quality win yet.

northwoods oldtimer · Post by **northwoods oldtimer** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:52 pm

What are we arguing about here? Elk River is the class of section 7AA and Rapids looks like a young team this season. That is just the way it is this season folks.

TheHockeyDJ · Post by **TheHockeyDJ** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 2:04 am

greenway1969 wrote:NWSC best wins:
Centennial - Duluth East
Blaine - Moorhead, Hill-Murray
Elk River - Wayzata
Andover - Duluth East (tie)

Northern Teams best wins:
Duluth East - STMA
Grand Rapids - Bemidji
Cloquet - Mounds View

I would say that the NWSC is doing better than the Northern Teams. The three Northern Teams do not have one quality win yet.

You having a conversation with yourself? Who is arguing East/GR/CEC vs NWSC. How about comparing Rapids remaining opponents to Elk Rivers? Two entirely different topics.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 7:27 am

northwoods oldtimer wrote:What are we arguing about here? Elk River is the class of section 7AA and Rapids looks like a young team this season. That is just the way it is this season folks.

Agree.
GR is an average TEAM.
They have quality players.
he upside is their schedule. IF, if they learn an dn develop they will be in the hunt against ER and DEast

northwoods oldtimer · Post by **northwoods oldtimer** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 9:35 am

elliott70 wrote:
northwoods oldtimer wrote:What are we arguing about here? Elk River is the class of section 7AA and Rapids looks like a young team this season. That is just the way it is this season folks.
Agree.
GR is an average TEAM.
They have quality players.
he upside is their schedule. IF, if they learn an dn develop they will be in the hunt against ER and DEast

Elliot70 some people on this board have a hard time realizing that the orange and black is an average hockey team in 2014.

TheHockeyDJ · Post by **TheHockeyDJ** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 9:41 am

To me "class of" is if you win by 4-5 goals. Jaremko was clearly the best player on the ice. Rapids did change up their lines going into the Edina game and kept them through last night. I like what they did with those lines. Micah Miller gets better every time I see him, and he appears to have good chemistry with Jonah Bischoff. Rapids has plenty of time to gel and needs to learn from these last 3 games. They are much better overall at defensive zone coverage, but there was one particular play an ER player was left wide open all alone to tie the game at 4. You can't have a mental lapse like that against top teams. I though Sam Gerth rebounded from the Edina game and had a nice performance in goal. His team didn't help him out with all the penalties. All in all, they hurt themselves a lot vs the elks, but losing a one goal game there is no reason to be down this early in the season. Lots of games left and the ones after Feb. 15 are what matter. I think Stillwater and another team that escape my mind weren't given a chance by anyone in their sections, and it isn't going to take a major upset to win 7AA for Rapids, just a minor one.

alcloseshaver · Post by **alcloseshaver** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 11:22 am

Based on Karl's current top 15 and bubble teams this is how the ER/GR schedules breakdown.
ER - 11 Games Vs top 15 and Bubble teams.
GR - 8 Games Vs same.
GR has 3 games against what you would consider good class A teams that could compete in AA, H-town,Warroad, Marshall.
I would call the schedules even. The NWSC added three teams that are not top end in hockey and the conference has 2 divisions with ER opting to work their schedule to play the other top programs more.

alcloseshaver · Post by **alcloseshaver** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 11:31 am

I give GR credit for playing up and coming up with such a good schedule with constraints of travel and the number of smaller schools in the area. Note to DJ though, don't get to worked up in disparaging the NWSC, it is so deep Anoka can even beat Blaine.

TheHockeyDJ · Post by **TheHockeyDJ** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 11:37 am

alcloseshaver wrote:I give GR credit for playing up and coming up with such a good schedule with constraints of travel and the number of smaller schools in the area. Note to DJ though, don't get to worked up in disparaging the NWSC, it is so deep Anoka can even beat Blaine.

I'm not worked up, but just consider that even with the point on Anoka, that teams like Champlin Park, Osseo, and Irondale are so bad it waters down what competition Elk River has left. Only International Falls and St. Francis would I consider to be that terrible of competition. Also, in those top teams, Rapids plays #1 Class A Hermantown and top 5 Wayzata. I guess it depends on if you just want to compare the top teams they play as in top 15 and ignore balancing that out with the Bantam B2 level teams that are also on the schedule.

alcloseshaver · Post by **alcloseshaver** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 11:45 am

TheHockeyDJ wrote:
alcloseshaver wrote:I give GR credit for playing up and coming up with such a good schedule with constraints of travel and the number of smaller schools in the area. Note to DJ though, don't get to worked up in disparaging the NWSC, it is so deep Anoka can even beat Blaine.
I'm not worked up, but just consider that even with the point on Anoka, that teams like Champlin Park, Osseo, and Irondale are so bad it waters down what competition Elk River has left. Only International Falls and St. Francis would I consider to be that terrible of competition. Also, in those top teams, Rapids plays #1 Class A Hermantown and top 5 Wayzata. I guess it depends on if you just want to compare the top teams they play as in top 15 and ignore balancing that out with the Bantam B2 level teams that are also on the schedule.

Rapids has a very commendable schedule but even Osseo and Champlin Park can be very competitive on any given night. Just because ER is capable of putting up some big numbers on some teams because of Jeremko doesn't make these teams terrible competition.

TheHockeyDJ · Post by **TheHockeyDJ** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 11:56 am

alcloseshaver wrote:
TheHockeyDJ wrote:
alcloseshaver wrote:I give GR credit for playing up and coming up with such a good schedule with constraints of travel and the number of smaller schools in the area. Note to DJ though, don't get to worked up in disparaging the NWSC, it is so deep Anoka can even beat Blaine.
I'm not worked up, but just consider that even with the point on Anoka, that teams like Champlin Park, Osseo, and Irondale are so bad it waters down what competition Elk River has left. Only International Falls and St. Francis would I consider to be that terrible of competition. Also, in those top teams, Rapids plays #1 Class A Hermantown and top 5 Wayzata. I guess it depends on if you just want to compare the top teams they play as in top 15 and ignore balancing that out with the Bantam B2 level teams that are also on the schedule.
Rapids has a very commendable schedule but even Osseo and Champlin Park can be very competitive on any given night. Just because ER is capable of putting up some big numbers on some teams because of Jeremko doesn't make these teams terrible competition.

I'm curious to see how Karl(East) feels about this, being he agrees with my take and usually offers a very unbiased evaluation. Besides trying to break it down, just the eye test of comparing these schedules if I'm a top AA team the elks remaining schedule just looks so much easier. I know records aren't a be all end all in know what a team is, but I see constant .500 and sub .500 records on the elks schedule on the Hub, and lots of .650 plus records on rapids opponents.

alcloseshaver · Post by **alcloseshaver** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 12:28 pm

TheHockeyDJ wrote:
alcloseshaver wrote:
TheHockeyDJ wrote: I'm not worked up, but just consider that even with the point on Anoka, that teams like Champlin Park, Osseo, and Irondale are so bad it waters down what competition Elk River has left. Only International Falls and St. Francis would I consider to be that terrible of competition. Also, in those top teams, Rapids plays #1 Class A Hermantown and top 5 Wayzata. I guess it depends on if you just want to compare the top teams they play as in top 15 and ignore balancing that out with the Bantam B2 level teams that are also on the schedule.
Rapids has a very commendable schedule but even Osseo and Champlin Park can be very competitive on any given night. Just because ER is capable of putting up some big numbers on some teams because of Jeremko doesn't make these teams terrible competition.
I'm curious to see how Karl(East) feels about this, being he agrees with my take and usually offers a very unbiased evaluation. Besides trying to break it down, just the eye test of comparing these schedules if I'm a top AA team the elks remaining schedule just looks so much easier. I know records aren't a be all end all in know what a team is, but I see constant .500 and sub .500 records on the elks schedule on the Hub, and lots of .650 plus records on rapids opponents.

The rest of the schedule may look easy but did you not see the schedule breakdown I posted above? Overall by current rankings very comparable. Elk River's is obviously more front end loaded and GR's back loaded in strength. Good luck against the pesky Lumberjacks they are no Osseo or Champlain.

TheHockeyDJ · Post by **TheHockeyDJ** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 12:56 pm

Don't really agree with GR's schedule being backloaded. I think they're schedule is the toughest in the first 3 weeks. They face quality clubs the rest of the way, but already have played Lakeville North and the classic. Honestly the win vs Bemidji is looking really good considering the Jacks have won 7 straight now and just beat EGF. I guess we've beat this topic to death. Bottom line is 7AA is going to be a battle with any of the top 7 teams having a good shot at showing up at Amsoil Arena for the semi-finals. If I'm Elk River, I wouldn't take the game at Forest Lake on Saturday lightly. That top seed can come into question in a hurry.

alcloseshaver · Post by **alcloseshaver** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 1:28 pm

[quote="TheHockeyDJ"]Don't really agree with GR's schedule being backloaded. I think they're schedule is the toughest in the first 3 weeks. They face quality clubs the rest of the way, but already have played Lakeville North and the classic. Honestly the win vs Bemidji is looking really good considering the Jacks have won 7 straight now and just beat EGF. I guess we've beat this topic to death. Bottom line is 7AA is going to be a battle with any of the top 7 teams having a good shot at showing up at Amsoil Arena for the semi-finals. If I'm Elk River, I wouldn't take the game at Forest Lake on Saturday lightly. That top seed can come into question in a hurry.[/quote]I stand by the facts based on Karl's rankings, Merry Christmas to all.

Post by **karl(east)** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 11:23 pm

I would agree that GR has a somewhat more difficult schedule than ER. It's not a huge difference, and they play a pretty similar number of games against top-20 caliber teams (with GR with a few more with teams against the top of the field). I would also submit that GR's very bottom teams (I-Falls, St. Franny, maybe Virginia and Brainerd) are worse than Elky's games against the very bottom. Where GR gets its separation is in the middle tier, where teams like Roseau, Denfeld, Hopkins, and Hibbing offer better competition than Spring Lake Park, TG, CP, and the like. So, for whatever it's worth; GR's schedule is slightly tougher (and East's is tougher than both of the other two).

I'm not bothering to look back at how this argument came up, but I will say this: after the loss on Saturday, the only road for Rapids to the top seed is with a win over East and an East win over ER, plus probably a few other iffy losses for ER. (And by that, I mean losses to the likes of Anoka and Andover, not Blaine or Centennial.) They already have double the number of losses of ER, and ER isn't likely to lose a whole lot down the stretch. Their SOSs aren't so different so as to justify any sort of big adjustment.

GR and ER's schedules are frontloaded for quality teams. East's is more middle-loaded, and their end is stronger, too. ER might be the toughest if not for their cakewalk of a February schedule. That could either work for or against them, depending on how they handle it.

TheHockeyDJ · Post by **TheHockeyDJ** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 11:36 pm

Appreciate the analysis Karl! I don't really anticipate Rapids having a shot at the #1 seed, my earlier comment was more in reference to East probably having a legit shot at it. No matter the seed, I really want to see Rapids play Elk River in the semi-finals, which is most likely as 2/3 seeds. I think Elk River and East play in late January, by then I expect Mike will have the Hounds playing closer to their potential and if any team can play solid D and stay out of the box the Elks are in trouble. Rapids took to many penalties and can't give Jaremko that many high quality chances. Watching yesterdays game it seemed both teams have similar strengths and weaknesses, high end forward talent, depth at forward, questionable defensive zone coverage and average goaltending, though Gerth didn't give up soft goals, the Elks scored on grade A chances/shots.

boblee · Post by **boblee** » Mon Dec 22, 2014 9:35 am

Grand Rapids looks to get back on track at Cloquet:

http://grhshockey.com/teams/default.asp ... wsID=34221

boblee · Post by **boblee** » Tue Dec 23, 2014 11:08 pm

GR @ CEC game recap http://www.hometeamsonline.com/teams/de ... wsID=34244

greenway1969 · Post by **greenway1969** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 7:51 am

Looks like Rapids is going to struggle to be above .500. With talented players and success at the youth level what is going wrong at the high school level?