Tier 1 now in MN

Wildcathcky · Post by **Wildcathcky** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:57 pm

karl(east) wrote:MNH isn't perfect, of course, but I like the concept here. Keeping "elite" hockey under one quasi-public umbrella (as opposed to the messiness of private-monopoly Elite League + private-competitive summer + a MNH-run Advanced process, etc.) is a lot cleaner and more logical, and at the same time respects the existing youth/high school leagues. It has a lot of potential, and can provide an answer to a number of critiques of the existing system.

Now let's see how the execution goes.

This comment seems to get to the essence of MNH's true intent here - MNH wants to wrestle back control over all youth hockey in the state, including spring/summer/fall hockey. The "for profit" leagues and AAA clubs won't stand by idly. MNH is in for a big fight to attract the top talent as those other entities will surely come up with new approaches to retain their position in the marketplace. This will go very badly for MNH if even 30% of the "elite" talent chooses to stay with the existing "for profit" leagues and clubs.

Bonin2121 · Post by **Bonin2121** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:01 pm

The chance to play for a national championship Crosby and Toews won after the HS season has to be pretty tempting...

stromboli · Post by **stromboli** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:05 pm

JSR wrote:
stromboli wrote:
Bonin2121 wrote: And a huge amount of $ is concentrated in a few sections. I wasn't saying it's a bad thing. I was countering the post about not being competitive nationwide.
I'm sorry, but no -- that's not much of a counter argument.

If MN's top summer teams can be used as any sort of a gauge, then even a "powerhouse" section in MN wouldn't be able to regularly compete on a national level with the top tier 1 teams than draw talent from entire metro, state, or multi-state regions.

At the highest levels of play, you have to be deeper in talent than any single region in MN can supply on a regular basis. Any other take is either out of touch with the tier 1 landscape, or overly optimistic about how strong some MN regions might be. Compare the Mpls metro to Chicago, Detroit, Boston, etc... Do you really think we're so deep in elite talent that we can compete with clubs from those areas if we split up talent by region when they don't?

MN can support three or four teams at most that can compete at a high level on a national stage. That's it -- regardless of where the kids come from.

Three teams would be okay. Two would be better. A true team MN would be ideal.

If the regional teams are used to identify a couple of national tournament teams, that could work.
I know you are used to seeing arguments to the contrary from me in some ways but I think you underestimate how good the MN teams can be, even at eight of them, and overestimate how good the talent is nationwide in this instance. Honestly its not the talent that will be the downfall of these teams, it will be the lack of ability to play together all winter and develop chemistry that will keep them from advancing consistantly.

I think I have an okay handle on talent in MN vs. nationwide. Not as good as some, but passable.

Maybe I should make a distinction though. When I mean compete, I don't mean the MN nice version of play .500 hockey. (Win against some middle of the road teams, and lose consistently to the top teams.) I mean be a legitimate threat to win a championship.

I agree wholeheartedly with your last point. It's hard to play at a high level without the chemistry that's built over the course of a winter season. That's also why I think that spreading the talent out over too many regions will prevent a MN team from being a legitimate contender.

stromboli · Post by **stromboli** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:05 pm

#*&@ double key strike.

stromboli · Post by **stromboli** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:09 pm

InigoMontoya wrote:
it amounts to no more than an in-house league
I'm not reading it that way. Nothing on the first post indicates that the 8 teams are limited to playing each other. I would suppose the eight Tier 1 teams could play whomever they like in the late summer/fall. MNH will have a pre-tourney in the fall to see which of those 8 is allowed to play SSM in the spring, for the right to represent the Minnesota Region at the national tourney.

I don't disagree with your take. I just don't see many families from Elliot's neck of the woods, or similar regions, wanting to shell out $ to travel east to play in bigger regional tournaments. That limits it, more than likely, to playing within a three state region (MN, IA, WI), with a tournament like the NAHL showcase in Blaine as the "big" tournament to play other top teams.

CommunityBased · Post by **CommunityBased** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:09 pm

I recently watched #1 Shattuck play #2 Chicago Mission (now#3). I went thinking this will be rocking 1 vs 2 game. There wasn't a soul there under 40 minus some kids who just finished a Peewee game and stuck around to watch a period. It was the most boring environment I have ever seen in high school sports. A few adults wandering around and that's it.

Goal scored ... silence ... big check....silence. Horrible environment. Your kids u9 soccer game has more fans and noise.

I get it. These kids aren't there representing anything but themselves and their hopes of playing somewhere else. They are not there to represent the school, town, or anything else but to get top training and get noticed. Even with that in mind, wow, what bad game environment.

Maybe that's the future. Oh goody.

stromboli · Post by **stromboli** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:11 pm

Bonin2121 wrote:The chance to play for a national championship Crosby and Toews won after the HS season has to be pretty tempting...

Define "chance." 1 in 100? 1 in 50? 1 in 10?

Bonin2121 · Post by **Bonin2121** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:13 pm

stromboli wrote: Define "chance." 1 in 100? 1 in 50? 1 in 10?

Why would I define it when they haven't played a game? Though, it seems you're intent on doing that in this thread.

old goalie85 · Post by **old goalie85** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:17 pm

Well said !! Boring envirnment for most kids. What happens now to the other AAA tier one teams. like BE ?? Head for Somerset ?? Back to St Louis ??

Froggy Richards · Post by **Froggy Richards** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:17 pm

CommunityBased wrote:I recently watched #1 Shattuck play #2 Chicago Mission (now#3). I went thinking this will be rocking 1 vs 2 game. There wasn't a soul there under 40 minus some kids who just finished a Peewee game and stuck around to watch a period. It was the most boring environment I have ever seen in high school sports. A few adults wandering around and that's it.

Goal scored ... silence ... big check....silence. Horrible environment. Your kids u9 soccer game has more fans and noise.

I get it. These kids aren't there representing anything but themselves and their hopes of playing somewhere else. They are not there to represent the school, town, or anything else but to get top training and get noticed. Even with that in mind, wow, what bad game environment.

Maybe that's the future. Oh goody.

Yep, that's exactly what Tier 1 hockey is.

stromboli · Post by **stromboli** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:18 pm

CommunityBased wrote:I recently watched #1 Shattuck play #2 Chicago Mission (now#3). I went thinking this will be rocking 1 vs 2 game. There wasn't a soul there under 40 minus some kids who just finished a Peewee game and stuck around to watch a period. It was the most boring environment I have ever seen in high school sports. A few adults wandering around and that's it.

Goal scored ... silence ... big check....silence. Horrible environment. Your kids u9 soccer game has more fans and noise.

I get it. These kids aren't there representing anything but themselves and their hopes of playing somewhere else. They are not there to represent the school, town, or anything else but to get top training and get noticed. Even with that in mind, wow, what bad game environment.

Maybe that's the future. Oh goody.

And I was just going to say "que up CommunityBased." (Finkle is Einhorn?)

How many of the 40+ year olds do you think might have been there to scout the kids?

Regardless of the environment, how was the game itself? Any talent on display? (Let me guess, not much in your opinion...)

stromboli · Post by **stromboli** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:20 pm

Bonin2121 wrote:
stromboli wrote: Define "chance." 1 in 100? 1 in 50? 1 in 10?
Why would I define it when they haven't played a game? Though, it seems you're intent on doing that in this thread.

Just trying to get your take on what would be "pretty tempting." Fair enough?

stromboli · Post by **stromboli** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:33 pm

old goalie85 wrote:Well said !! Boring envirnment for most kids. What happens now to the other AAA tier one teams. like BE ?? Head for Somerset ?? Back to St Louis ??

Wisconsin has closed its borders to MN tomfoolery, so Somerset is out.

St. Louis seems like a stretch, though they did have kids from the Dakotas and Montana, so why not billet the kids farther east?

Sadly, I had hoped for Tier 1 teams based on geography of rinks like VH and Fogerty with a bar attached. Seems to enhance the "environment" aspect of some Tier 1 venues.

Seriously though, I wonder what the stance of the Blades, Magicians, N Wings and others will be on this one?

CommunityBased · Post by **CommunityBased** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:34 pm

Stromboli, the talent was impressive, not mind blowing but very good depth as you would expect. The game was just ok. Chicago's goals were kind of weak. Shattuck special teams were amazing! Clearly lots of focused practice. The game was also more physical then what I have seen in high school games lately. I mean that in a good way, clean and physical.

Not sure on scouts. Guentzel was there watching. I get all that. I was just surprised that the students and town didn't show up for 1 vs. 2 game. But I guess it makes sense since the kids are more transient players looking for the next best thing.

I am guessing it's the same with USNDT but between them and Shattuck your not going to find "better" focused year round training and exposure. If that is what your after great.

I just thought it was a bad game environment as a fan. It's not for everyone. For most kids it's about the experience. For the elite this may be just another stepping stone to develop and get noticed. I am sure Edina vs. Lakeville North was a much better environment.

stromboli · Post by **stromboli** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:40 pm

CommunityBased wrote:Stromboli, the talent was impressive, not mind blowing but very good depth as you would expect. The game was just ok. Chicago's goals were kind of weak. Shattuck special teams were amazing! Clearly lots of focused practice. The game was also more physical then what I have seen in high school games lately. I mean that in a good way, clean and physical.

Not sure on scouts. Guentzel was there watching. I get all that. I was just surprised that the students and town didn't show up for 1 vs. 2 game. But I guess it makes sense since the kids are more transient players looking for the next best thing.

I am guessing it's the same with USNDT but between them and Shattuck your not going to find "better" focused year round training and exposure. If that is what your after great.

I just thought it was a bad game environment as a fan. It's not for everyone. For most kids it's about the experience. For the elite this may be just another stepping stone to develop and get noticed. I am sure Edina vs. Lakeville North was a much better environment.

I think most MN high school games do provide a better fan experience. You're spot on.

I don't think many Tier 1 games that involve just two teams do compare (there are exceptions of course). You get parents and a few friends, but generally not much community turnout.

JSR · Post by **JSR** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:46 pm

stromboli wrote:
JSR wrote:
stromboli wrote: I'm sorry, but no -- that's not much of a counter argument.

If MN's top summer teams can be used as any sort of a gauge, then even a "powerhouse" section in MN wouldn't be able to regularly compete on a national level with the top tier 1 teams than draw talent from entire metro, state, or multi-state regions.

At the highest levels of play, you have to be deeper in talent than any single region in MN can supply on a regular basis. Any other take is either out of touch with the tier 1 landscape, or overly optimistic about how strong some MN regions might be. Compare the Mpls metro to Chicago, Detroit, Boston, etc... Do you really think we're so deep in elite talent that we can compete with clubs from those areas if we split up talent by region when they don't?

MN can support three or four teams at most that can compete at a high level on a national stage. That's it -- regardless of where the kids come from.

Three teams would be okay. Two would be better. A true team MN would be ideal.

If the regional teams are used to identify a couple of national tournament teams, that could work.
I know you are used to seeing arguments to the contrary from me in some ways but I think you underestimate how good the MN teams can be, even at eight of them, and overestimate how good the talent is nationwide in this instance. Honestly its not the talent that will be the downfall of these teams, it will be the lack of ability to play together all winter and develop chemistry that will keep them from advancing consistantly.
I think I have an okay handle on talent in MN vs. nationwide. Not as good as some, but passable.

Maybe I should make a distinction though. When I mean compete, I don't mean the MN nice version of play .500 hockey. (Win against some middle of the road teams, and lose consistently to the top teams.) I mean be a legitimate threat to win a championship.

I agree wholeheartedly with your last point. It's hard to play at a high level without the chemistry that's built over the course of a winter season. That's also why I think that spreading the talent out over too many regions will prevent a MN team from being a legitimate contender.

With 8 teams spread all over some of them will probably compete at a higher level than others. But I'd be willing to bet you will have atleast a couple of districts every year who do really well and can compete against the highest level. Heck if TW can win it all at the U16 or U18 levels every 5 or 6 years a district in MN certainly can. Probably one district will be more consistently dominant then others but atleast it gives more kids more opportunities and gives equal opportunity to have that one year where some out state district emerges etc... just my take on it

old goalie85 · Post by **old goalie85** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:53 pm

It's always good to have a bar attached !

WarmUpTheBus · Post by **WarmUpTheBus** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:33 pm

Has Minnesota ever hosted a Tier 1 boys' national championship?
I know the girls' championship was held in Bloomington in the late 90"s.

Clarkkent · Post by **Clarkkent** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:19 pm

So a current MN Tier 1 program that plays before and after is excluded now from Tier 1? BE, Blades, Magicians, for example will not be allowed to play before and/or after? Lawsuit?

imlisteningtothefnsong · Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:01 pm

Well, as a parent of 4, 2 playing hockey, I can say I will be forever grateful for the Tier 1 opportunity. With all the variables involved in community hockey, it is invaluable to have another option. We moved from a south of the river community to another, not due to sports but rather we outgrew a house. I did not consider the fallout of having 2 high school players joining a new team where boys had been playing together for many years and hoping to play for that high school. I don't know if my boys would have bumped any players out of a spot, but after having them attend a few practices, I could tell this would be a situation that would have unintended implications. My choice would be let them press on and disrupt program that would be fine with or without my boys or find another option. I chose the latter. My boys went and played in Omaha. If there was a Tier 1 option in Minnesota we would have explored that as well. The choice proved invaluable. After on year one of my boys has been offered a D1 scholarship and the other has been in the discussion for the WHL as well as the USHL. I know what the MN HS supporters will say, but sorry to disappoint, I am one of you. But Tier 1 has more than exceeded my expectations. Our model of community based hockey will never be snuffed out, but there are instances where talented players get left out and they too need a team to play for. There will always be power house communities that have the financial horsepower to produce players, but there needs to be an option for the rare situations of players who need another option. I will say if you kid plays hockey for the amount of noise in the stands, than he is in need of the big show. But if he loves the game and plays for the love of the game and needs a team then I hope he can find a Tier 1 team. Please feel free to sub he/she in any pronoun found here. I will end with Thank You Omaha, and I hope Mn Revolution can continue to be an option!!

Froggy Richards · Post by **Froggy Richards** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:52 pm

Clarkkent wrote:So a current MN Tier 1 program that plays before and after is excluded now from Tier 1? BE, Blades, Magicians, for example will not be allowed to play before and/or after? Lawsuit?

That's what it sounds like. No grounds for a lawsuit. USA Hockey and MN Hockey have every right to decide who plays in their league. It would be like suing the NHL to get my bar league team a franchise.

greybeard58 · Post by **greybeard58** » Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:12 am

MNH now has a written Tier I policy in place which has not been the case in the past. The new current Tier I teams signed a limited agreement for this current season only.
Also the wording I believe is for Tier I to be only for USA Hockey age levels that have a National tournament and it is for both youth and girls.

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Thu Jan 29, 2015 6:49 am

I am sure Edina vs. Lakeville North was a much better environment.

I heard there was a band at that game...

old goalie85 · Post by **old goalie85** » Thu Jan 29, 2015 6:59 am

Guns n Roses ?

black sheep · Post by **black sheep** » Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:10 am

if you just want a balance model...

the bantam elite league just about has nailed that with north teams and the metro draft. in fact for this year they had to split the north to make it fair.