City Pages Cover Story Part 2: Game Misconduct 2

VicKevlar · Post by **VicKevlar** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:07 am

First Part was pretty good.

I think this part does a bit better in the exposure. Of course, not much new for regulars here.

http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2015 ... itself.php

VicKevlar · Post by **VicKevlar** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:20 am

I gotta admit my fave part which the Ken Pauly quote.

"Bob Baer's a @#$@# liar!"

The Exiled One · Post by **The Exiled One** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:32 pm

Another great article! A few thoughts...

• Baer was not listed in the most recent CSS rankings. Seven MSHSL players were. For his sake, I hope the kid uses his education package. It wasn't necessarily a bad decision if he manages to graduate, though some of his undrafted collegiate peers will undoubtedly graduate AND sign AHL and/or NHL deals.

• The last part about Lucia was a bit out of left-field. Recruiting younger college prospects is a 10 page article by itself! The phenomenon is only tangentially related to the overall theme of the article. It could have been left out.

• There's a bit of truth behind the degradation of the Minnesota model. Hopefully this Tier 1 proposal will help (if there aren't USAHockey issues too difficult to overcome).

• I don't mind what Bob Capra is doing. He's responding to market demand and complimenting the association model (not supplanting it like Bernie is). In fact, there's a whole class of AAA programs that just do spring/fall and leave the summer open for other sports like baseball and soccer. And honestly, the cost per hour of ice (practice and games) for some of these programs is about the same or less than some associations. Expensive, but not unreasonable.

• $6,000 a year in sticks!

Glad I only have a squirt!

• There are lots of parents with unreasonable expectations, but many, many more who are quite realistic. I highly doubt any of my kids will play beyond HS. Odds are, not all of them will even get to play varsity! I'm okay with that as long as they're having fun!

hshockeyfan53 · Post by **hshockeyfan53** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:35 pm

The Exiled One wrote:Another great article! A few thoughts...

• Baer was not listed in the most recent CSS rankings. Seven MSHSL players were. For his sake, I hope the kid uses his education package. It wasn't necessarily a bad decision if he manages to graduate, though some of his undrafted collegiate peers will undoubtedly graduate AND sign AHL and/or NHL deals.

• The last part about Lucia was a bit out of left-field. Recruiting younger college prospects is a 10 page article by itself! The phenomenon is only tangentially related to the overall theme of the article. It could have been left out.

• There's a bit of truth behind the degradation of the Minnesota model. Hopefully this Tier 1 proposal will help (if there aren't USAHockey issues too difficult to overcome).

• I don't mind what Bob Capra is doing. He's responding to market demand and complimenting the association model (not supplanting it like Bernie is). In fact, there's a whole class of AAA programs that just do spring/fall and leave the summer open for other sports like baseball and soccer. And honestly, the cost per hour of ice (practice and games) for some of these programs is about the same or less than some associations. Expensive, but not unreasonable.

• $6,000 a year in sticks! Glad I only have a squirt!

• There are lots of parents with unreasonable expectations, but many, many more who are quite realistic. I highly doubt any of my kids will play beyond HS. Odds are, not all of them will even get to play varsity! I'm okay with that as long as they're having fun!

Isn't he too young? I'm guessing he wasn't in the CSS rankings because he isn't 2015 draft eligible. Correct me if I'm wrong please.

The Exiled One · Post by **The Exiled One** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:43 pm

hshockeyfan53 wrote:Isn't he too young?

Nope.

bstarr15 · Post by **bstarr15** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:29 pm

Yes interesting article. I recall the brooohaha with Baer.
It was interesting to read about Minnesota Made. I had a '90 and '94 and we did what was Minnesota Pride Hockey back in the day with Bernie and Fire hockey not to mention Blades and other teams. We aren't even from close to the Metro either. But my boys did stay in HS hockey, got to play at the X, one did 4 years in a row,pretty cool. Did a stint in the USHL and NAHL but at the end of the day, it or he was not cut out for it and now doing college,no hockey, and like HS enjoying it very much!!!
Best of luck and wishes to those that take on the long journey and may your best intentions come to fruition. But, it does take a lot of work, time,sacrifice and money. Sometimes the windshield time you get while traveling can be priceless though.
In the end, you have to follow your heart, dream a little but keep little Johnny in mind as well. IMHO I could never have taken my son away from HS hockey to play Jr.s at 16,although like others they were not beating down our door or ringing the phone, maybe why he is now in college not playing hockey but, thats ok!!!
Times have changed.

Stick Save · Post by **Stick Save** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:50 pm

VicKevlar wrote:I gotta admit my fave part which the Ken Pauly quote.

"Bob Baer's a @#$@# liar!"

Nice. And this guy's a teacher at a Catholic high school? LOL. The face of BSM hockey... "Come play for us, or we'll effin' smear you."

And I counted two f-bombs in the story...from the President of the MN Coaches Association. Sounds more like the Godfather.

WestMetro · Post by **WestMetro** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:40 pm

Not much new here.

Everytime I read one of these articles with mostly negative context of serious student athletes, I wonder where are the people cheering them on for not being overweight or spending too much time on video games.

My grandsons are doing just fine and their parents seem willing to devote to continue that Minnesota lifestyle. I dont think any have U of M or NHL dreams

stpaul · Post by **stpaul** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:49 pm

Apparently nobody told Ken Pauly that City Pages prints the f word. He does not represent BSM or high school coaches well.

Nuts&Bolts · Post by **Nuts&Bolts** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:32 pm

Always been a fan of Choice and recognize Baers did what was best for there family and kids development. Have also always been a fan of freedom of speech but in his role as a teacher, coach and leader of a program of young "men" Pauley has stepped way out of bounds in this article. I gotta believe there is going to be some action once this wild fire spreads with BSM, the MSHSL and the coaches association. Time to take out the trash. And would his Blades buddy count as the feeder for the embarrassed blushing red knights?

jg2112 · Post by **jg2112** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:52 pm

With regard to folks leaving their home associations to go to MN Made, maybe the author should have done a little digging to find out the real reasons why people leave those associations to go get the better option. It's not always chasing the NHL (especially those with girls in the house).

In our instance, the reasons were:

1) Better competition
2) Twice as many practice hours and the equivalent of 20 more games
3) Dryland
4) Per hour of training MN Made is 30% cheaper than our home association
5) Having a coach who can demonstrate drills

That, to me, is the story that wasn't told, that MN Made is exposing associations that need to improve their governance and what they provide to their members. That will be the true reason Association hockey will go away in certain Minnesota towns, if it ever does.

SidneysDogHouse · Post by **SidneysDogHouse** » Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:03 pm

Nuts&Bolts wrote:Always been a fan of Choice and recognize Baers did what was best for there family and kids development. Have also always been a fan of freedom of speech but in his role as a teacher, coach and leader of a program of young "men" Pauley has stepped way out of bounds in this article. I gotta believe there is going to be some action once this wild fire spreads with BSM, the MSHSL and the coaches association. Time to take out the trash. And would his Blades buddy count as the feeder for the embarrassed blushing red knights?

Yeah, this isn't pretty, but it's a glaring display of media mongers doing their thing. Seriously, did Zurowski really think the f-bomb needed to be used!? Seriously...? Know your subject, know your topic and be relevant, understand context and don't be an idiot! Why is it that every half capable writer needs to comment on "The State of MN Hockey"? Zurowski...stick to Islam, Congress and Klobuchar!!!

Sats81 · Post by **Sats81** » Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:05 pm

VicKevlar wrote:I gotta admit my fave part which the Ken Pauly quote.

"Bob Baer's a @#$@# liar!"

I forgot, Ken Pauly is the pope!

Tron · Post by **Tron** » Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:08 pm

jg2112 wrote:With regard to folks leaving their home associations to go to MN Made, maybe the author should have done a little digging to find out the real reasons why people leave those associations to go get the better option. It's not always chasing the NHL (especially those with girls in the house).

In our instance, the reasons were:

1) Better competition
2) Twice as many practice hours and the equivalent of 20 more games
3) Dryland
4) Per hour of training MN Made is 30% cheaper than our home association
5) Having a coach who can demonstrate drills

That, to me, is the story that wasn't told, that MN Made is exposing associations that need to improve their governance and what they provide to their members. That will be the true reason Association hockey will go away in certain Minnesota towns, if it ever does.

My nephew plays for an association like Wayzata, OMGA, Edina etc and his coaches all have been superb, and he is getting a lot out of it. I dont think an umbrella term for "association hockey experience" fits everyone. Of course there are those associations I heard that have lost it, like FL, Anoka, Shakopee etc that have kids going to MM for mite-sqrts because of a bad experience or experiences. But I dont think anyone believes MM is a good fit for those kids in strong associations, its more of a substitute for bad ones. and on the last note, community based hockey is what we have to keep alive. I encourage all parents to get involved in their hockey board if they have issues. My experience is that board members are only around so long and things change.

WCHBlog · Post by **WCHBlog** » Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:11 pm

SidneysDogHouse wrote:
Yeah, this isn't pretty, but it's a glaring display of media mongers doing their thing. Seriously, did Zurowski really think the f-bomb needed to be used!? Seriously...?

Maybe he should have changed some other words in that direct quote to make Pauly sound more reasonable too.

observer · Post by **observer** » Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:43 pm

Re: Baer,

It wasn't necessarily a bad decision

Remember, his first decision was to come back. Handled poorly, and inappropriately in my opinion, by Pauley and BSM.

Froggy Richards · Post by **Froggy Richards** » Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:01 pm

Tron wrote:
jg2112 wrote:With regard to folks leaving their home associations to go to MN Made, maybe the author should have done a little digging to find out the real reasons why people leave those associations to go get the better option. It's not always chasing the NHL (especially those with girls in the house).

In our instance, the reasons were:

1) Better competition
2) Twice as many practice hours and the equivalent of 20 more games
3) Dryland
4) Per hour of training MN Made is 30% cheaper than our home association
5) Having a coach who can demonstrate drills

That, to me, is the story that wasn't told, that MN Made is exposing associations that need to improve their governance and what they provide to their members. That will be the true reason Association hockey will go away in certain Minnesota towns, if it ever does.
My nephew plays for an association like Wayzata, OMGA, Edina etc and his coaches all have been superb, and he is getting a lot out of it. I dont think an umbrella term for "association hockey experience" fits everyone. Of course there are those associations I heard that have lost it, like FL, Anoka, Shakopee etc that have kids going to MM for mite-sqrts because of a bad experience or experiences. But I dont think anyone believes MM is a good fit for those kids in strong associations, its more of a substitute for bad ones. and on the last note, community based hockey is what we have to keep alive. I encourage all parents to get involved in their hockey board if they have issues. My experience is that board members are only around so long and things change.

You are correct, sir. My son plays for a small association, nothing even close to the resources of the large Associations you mentioned, and it's still a 10 times better childhood experience than anything a hockey factory could provide. Going to the same place, over and over, playing the same teams, over and over. Playing with kids you don't know, as opposed to your best friends. No travel, no hotel trips, no sleepovers. You know, the things that actually build teams and lifelong friendships. Dryland? Yeah, I have some great memories of organized dryland from my Youth days. That's all we talked about at our 20 year reunion.

You want dryland, get your neighborhood kids together and play street hockey like we used to. Well, as long as all the neighborhood kids aren't on a weekend tournament trip, swimming, playing knee hockey, eating pizza and building lifelong memories. Cheaper, per hour of training ? But still a lot more expensive in the overall price tag, right? But that doesn't matter, because what Mites and Squirts need is more TRAINING. Forget the fun, these kids need TRAINING! What exactly are they training for? jg2112 made a post to refute the author and everything he said reaffirms what the author said.

jg2112 · Post by **jg2112** » Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:29 pm

Froggy Richards wrote:
Tron wrote:
jg2112 wrote:With regard to folks leaving their home associations to go to MN Made, maybe the author should have done a little digging to find out the real reasons why people leave those associations to go get the better option. It's not always chasing the NHL (especially those with girls in the house).

In our instance, the reasons were:

1) Better competition
2) Twice as many practice hours and the equivalent of 20 more games
3) Dryland
4) Per hour of training MN Made is 30% cheaper than our home association
5) Having a coach who can demonstrate drills

That, to me, is the story that wasn't told, that MN Made is exposing associations that need to improve their governance and what they provide to their members. That will be the true reason Association hockey will go away in certain Minnesota towns, if it ever does.
My nephew plays for an association like Wayzata, OMGA, Edina etc and his coaches all have been superb, and he is getting a lot out of it. I dont think an umbrella term for "association hockey experience" fits everyone. Of course there are those associations I heard that have lost it, like FL, Anoka, Shakopee etc that have kids going to MM for mite-sqrts because of a bad experience or experiences. But I dont think anyone believes MM is a good fit for those kids in strong associations, its more of a substitute for bad ones. and on the last note, community based hockey is what we have to keep alive. I encourage all parents to get involved in their hockey board if they have issues. My experience is that board members are only around so long and things change.
You are correct, sir. My son plays for a small association, nothing even close to the resources of the large Associations you mentioned, and it's still a 10 times better childhood experience than anything a hockey factory could provide. Going to the same place, over and over, playing the same teams, over and over. Playing with kids you don't know, as opposed to your best friends. No travel, no hotel trips, no sleepovers. You know, the things that actually build teams and lifelong friendships. Dryland? Yeah, I have some great memories of organized dryland from my Youth days. That's all we talked about at our 20 year reunion. You want dryland, get your neighborhood kids together and play street hockey like we used to. Well, as long as all the neighborhood kids aren't on a weekend tournament trip, swimming, playing knee hockey, eating pizza and building lifelong memories. Cheaper, per hour of training ? But still a lot more expensive in the overall price tag, right? But that doesn't matter, because what Mites and Squirts need is more TRAINING. Forget the fun, these kids need TRAINING! What exactly are they training for? jg2112 made a post to refute the author and everything he said reaffirms what the author said.

Alot of false assumptions going on in this post. First, that Choice League kids aren't friends or don't go onto these teams with friends.

Also, that home clubs beget best friendships. The player in my house was the only player from her school on her team last year in the association.

Finally, the assumption that these kids have a chance at success without being taught the fundamentals on how to play (how to stickhandle, how to shoot, how to skate correctly). Take a look around at association websites and the great majority take the time to teach their kids through supplementary off-ice teaching how to do these things. My player's doesn't. It's not a criticism, it's a fact.

Criticize all you want. I'm fine with that. My player will be going back to that association in a year or two to play with her cohort and prepare for high school. A different path is not a wrong path.

imlisteningtothefnsong · Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:41 pm

K. Pauly might not be the Pope, but even if he was, I know that when I was playing Junior hockey and he called my dad an elfin' liar, he would be looking for his teeth through the top of his mitre. Good thing I have turned into such a "softie" that I just lob my grenades from behind my stage name!!

Here is a short clip from the Giants. AB looks like he will be just fine, when his lip heals!

http://youtu.be/ZNlu9jnNVj8

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:44 pm

imlisteningtothefnsong wrote:K. Pauly might not be the Pope, but even if he was, I know that when I was playing Junior hockey and he called my dad an elfin' liar, he would be looking for his teeth through the top of his mitre. Good thing I have turned into such a "softie" that I just lob my grenades from behind my stage name!!

Here is a short clip from the Giants. AB looks like he will be just fine, when his lip heals!
http://youtu.be/ZNlu9jnNVj8

There is no need for violence.

imlisteningtothefnsong · Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:49 pm

No worries Elliott, I have grown too wise to drop the gloves anymore!!

Froggy Richards · Post by **Froggy Richards** » Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:52 pm

jg2112 wrote:
Froggy Richards wrote:
Tron wrote: My nephew plays for an association like Wayzata, OMGA, Edina etc and his coaches all have been superb, and he is getting a lot out of it. I dont think an umbrella term for "association hockey experience" fits everyone. Of course there are those associations I heard that have lost it, like FL, Anoka, Shakopee etc that have kids going to MM for mite-sqrts because of a bad experience or experiences. But I dont think anyone believes MM is a good fit for those kids in strong associations, its more of a substitute for bad ones. and on the last note, community based hockey is what we have to keep alive. I encourage all parents to get involved in their hockey board if they have issues. My experience is that board members are only around so long and things change.
You are correct, sir. My son plays for a small association, nothing even close to the resources of the large Associations you mentioned, and it's still a 10 times better childhood experience than anything a hockey factory could provide. Going to the same place, over and over, playing the same teams, over and over. Playing with kids you don't know, as opposed to your best friends. No travel, no hotel trips, no sleepovers. You know, the things that actually build teams and lifelong friendships. Dryland? Yeah, I have some great memories of organized dryland from my Youth days. That's all we talked about at our 20 year reunion. You want dryland, get your neighborhood kids together and play street hockey like we used to. Well, as long as all the neighborhood kids aren't on a weekend tournament trip, swimming, playing knee hockey, eating pizza and building lifelong memories. Cheaper, per hour of training ? But still a lot more expensive in the overall price tag, right? But that doesn't matter, because what Mites and Squirts need is more TRAINING. Forget the fun, these kids need TRAINING! What exactly are they training for? jg2112 made a post to refute the author and everything he said reaffirms what the author said.
Alot of false assumptions going on in this post. First, that Choice League kids aren't friends or don't go onto these teams with friends.

Also, that home clubs beget best friendships. The player in my house was the only player from her school on her team last year in the association.

Finally, the assumption that these kids have a chance at success without being taught the fundamentals on how to play (how to stickhandle, how to shoot, how to skate correctly). Take a look around at association websites and the great majority take the time to teach their kids through supplementary off-ice teaching how to do these things. My player's doesn't. It's not a criticism, it's a fact.

Criticize all you want. I'm fine with that. My player will be going back to that association in a year or two to play with her cohort and prepare for high school. A different path is not a wrong path.

Yeah, I admit I went off on a little rant there. I apologize for that. I have no idea what's best for your kid anymore than you do for mine. It's just that I had such a great experience with Association Youth Hockey growing up and my son also does today. I see what it does for kids and I would love to see that for every kid. So it just maybe, might, could, possibly, cloud my judgement, a little, at times, on the MN Mades and Tier 1's of the world.

jg2112 · Post by **jg2112** » Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:09 pm

Froggy Richards wrote:
jg2112 wrote:
Froggy Richards wrote: You are correct, sir. My son plays for a small association, nothing even close to the resources of the large Associations you mentioned, and it's still a 10 times better childhood experience than anything a hockey factory could provide. Going to the same place, over and over, playing the same teams, over and over. Playing with kids you don't know, as opposed to your best friends. No travel, no hotel trips, no sleepovers. You know, the things that actually build teams and lifelong friendships. Dryland? Yeah, I have some great memories of organized dryland from my Youth days. That's all we talked about at our 20 year reunion. You want dryland, get your neighborhood kids together and play street hockey like we used to. Well, as long as all the neighborhood kids aren't on a weekend tournament trip, swimming, playing knee hockey, eating pizza and building lifelong memories. Cheaper, per hour of training ? But still a lot more expensive in the overall price tag, right? But that doesn't matter, because what Mites and Squirts need is more TRAINING. Forget the fun, these kids need TRAINING! What exactly are they training for? jg2112 made a post to refute the author and everything he said reaffirms what the author said.
Alot of false assumptions going on in this post. First, that Choice League kids aren't friends or don't go onto these teams with friends.

Also, that home clubs beget best friendships. The player in my house was the only player from her school on her team last year in the association.

Finally, the assumption that these kids have a chance at success without being taught the fundamentals on how to play (how to stickhandle, how to shoot, how to skate correctly). Take a look around at association websites and the great majority take the time to teach their kids through supplementary off-ice teaching how to do these things. My player's doesn't. It's not a criticism, it's a fact.

Criticize all you want. I'm fine with that. My player will be going back to that association in a year or two to play with her cohort and prepare for high school. A different path is not a wrong path.
Yeah, I admit I went off on a little rant there. I apologize for that. I have no idea what's best for your kid anymore than you do for mine. It's just that I had such a great experience with Association Youth Hockey growing up and my son also does today. I see what it does for kids and I would love to see that for every kid. So it just maybe, might, could, possibly, cloud my judgement, a little, at times, on the MN Mades and Tier 1's of the world.

Hey, no problem. The thing is, I want my kids to play for the local association, and they will. The issue is that certain institutional problems exist (a squeeze on ice time chief among them) that make looking at MN Made a necessary exercise.

Froggy Richards · Post by **Froggy Richards** » Thu Jan 29, 2015 3:08 pm

jg2112 wrote:
Froggy Richards wrote:
jg2112 wrote: Alot of false assumptions going on in this post. First, that Choice League kids aren't friends or don't go onto these teams with friends.

Also, that home clubs beget best friendships. The player in my house was the only player from her school on her team last year in the association.

Finally, the assumption that these kids have a chance at success without being taught the fundamentals on how to play (how to stickhandle, how to shoot, how to skate correctly). Take a look around at association websites and the great majority take the time to teach their kids through supplementary off-ice teaching how to do these things. My player's doesn't. It's not a criticism, it's a fact.

Criticize all you want. I'm fine with that. My player will be going back to that association in a year or two to play with her cohort and prepare for high school. A different path is not a wrong path.
Yeah, I admit I went off on a little rant there. I apologize for that. I have no idea what's best for your kid anymore than you do for mine. It's just that I had such a great experience with Association Youth Hockey growing up and my son also does today. I see what it does for kids and I would love to see that for every kid. So it just maybe, might, could, possibly, cloud my judgement, a little, at times, on the MN Mades and Tier 1's of the world.
Hey, no problem. The thing is, I want my kids to play for the local association, and they will. The issue is that certain institutional problems exist (a squeeze on ice time chief among them) that make looking at MN Made a necessary exercise.

I get it. I'm sure ice time is tough to come by in the Metro. Where I live we probably have 30+ outdoor sheets within a 20 min drive. It's a great and necessary supplement to the on ice coaching and practice. If you can get her out there with 5-6 friends and just let them do whatever they want for as long as they want, they will develop skills that none of us coaches can teach them.

terrymoore1717 · Post by **terrymoore1717** » Thu Jan 29, 2015 3:48 pm

I think the article did not have much new value in it. Everyone on this Board has probably been around enough rinks and Raddissons to have heard most of the stories before.

Basically, he tried to establish the following things, all of which are pretty much undeniably true:

1. People will act in their own self interest more often than not.

2. Some people will value education more than hockey and some will value hockey more than education.

3. Some hockey coaches curse sometimes.

4. Some adults are willing to make false promises to teenagers.

5. Parents will shop around for the situation they think is best for their kids.

6. A school or league can be great for one guy and wrong for the next guy.

None of these principles should surprise anyone. And none are a serious threat to MN HS Hockey. Even with many of the top players gone, parity has made for a very entertaining 2014-15 season. (A little too entertaining for my team some nights),