Single A teams that should move up?

[MNHockeyFan]

If you rob most of the talent from Class A by forcing or even pressuring the better teams to move to AA, then you will end up with a de facto Tier II, which only family members and friends would want to watch. At that point they should also have a JV state tournament, or better yet let those teams also compete in Tier II to see who's the best of the worst. Kind of like the NIT of high school hockey.

[BP]

I have seen a few people saying they want all privates to move up to AA now. Lets be logical, some private schools don't recruit at all, schools like Minnehaha and Legacy Christian don't belong anywhere near AA.

Breck and Duluth Marshall (and maybe Cathedral) would be the only A schools right now that could compete in AA. The rest wouldn't, even though they may be in the Top 20, none have the depth. In fact, Breck is the only one that would be able to compete in AA this year from a private school perspective. SPA, Blake, Minnehaha Academy, Lourdes, Prov, Legacy, etc. None would be able to compete and lack depth. Example......Blake lost to Tonka and Cretin, 7-1 this year. Blake beat SPA 3-1 last night, beat MA on Tuesday in OT 4-3. Lourdes lost to SPA 3-1, lost to MA 4-3 last week and beat Blake 2-0. All in somewhat the same boat. Prov has gotten destroyed by all their conference teams and Legacy got destroyed by Prov and MA. All of these schools are Class A schools......

[goldy313]

My opinion is that there should be more than the top 64 teams in AA, maybe 80 or 96 with that group including every private school. Then have a more liberal policy to allow teams to drop down based on youth numbers, ice availability, past success, etc.

Hockey isn't a numbers game as much as it is an economic game, I saw a study that showed Free/Reduced lunch kids had about a zero percent chance of playing ice hockey, golf, tennis, gymnastics, or swimming at the varsity high school level. Irondale shouldn't be an AA program any more than Hermantown should be a A program. There is a significant economic impact on hockey, treating hockey the same as track seems counter intuitive.

[Nevertoomuchhockey]

A couple of good years? EGF and Warroad maybe. But Hermantown has been in the State Tournament 7 out of the past 9 years. State Championship game in the last four or five. That is not a couple good years or a bout of recent success.

Froggy, instead of bashing a successful youth program in a small school, why don’t you focus your efforts in getting a higher % of the boys in your area involved in hockey?
The more kids you get involved, the better your team will be.

Bashing??? Nobody is bashing anyone here, we're all just stating the obvious that Hermantown is not a Single A program. You're from Hermantown, we all get it. The rest of us are unbiased and just want what's best for the High School game. Maybe all the rest of us are on to something here........

Hermantown. Loses a little respect every year IMHO. And if Marshall can do it I mean come on. I think the girls should move up too. Strength of schedule alone would benefit the programs.

[team22tank]

I think we need to be careful when we are all calling for teams that are successful to move up. Imagine if Breck, Mahtomedi, Hermantown, Totino, etc all moved up. What a brutal single A tournament that would be. There's already teams that make it to state that don't belong there. It's nice watching elite teams play in BOTH the A and AA tournaments.

So you think that having a few "elite" teams in the A tournament each year beating up on small programs makes it a better tournament?

What makes it a good tournament is the parity and competition. STA & Hermantown for example kicking the crap out of everyone through sections and into the tournament doesn't make it any good, only to match up for one big game.

A few off the top of my head. Warroad, East Grand Forks, Hermantown should all move up.

Making it to the AA tournament every ten years is better than making it every year in A. The Roseau coach that said that (can't remember which one) had it right.

[hshockeyfan53]

I think we need to be careful when we are all calling for teams that are successful to move up. Imagine if Breck, Mahtomedi, Hermantown, Totino, etc all moved up. What a brutal single A tournament that would be. There's already teams that make it to state that don't belong there. It's nice watching elite teams play in BOTH the A and AA tournaments.

So you think that having a few "elite" teams in the A tournament each year beating up on small programs makes it a better tournament?

What makes it a good tournament is the parity and competition. STA & Hermantown for example kicking the crap out of everyone through sections and into the tournament doesn't make it any good, only to match up for one big game.

A few off the top of my head. Warroad, East Grand Forks, Hermantown should all move up.

Making it to the AA tournament every ten years is better than making it every year in A. The Roseau coach that said that (can't remember which one) had it right.

How about instead of focusing our attention and energy on forcing the best teams up every year, we instead focused our energy on improving our own teams/programs so that they could better compete with the "elite" programs. Maybe?

It would be like getting a promotion at work. I can sit and complain about those who are ahead of me just because they are simply better, or I can roll up my sleeves and focus on myself and getting better at what I do without worrying about my competition.

The complaining about teams that our better than our own will never stop. Some of the Hermantown contingent did it with STA and Breck and now it's Hermantown's turn to be ridiculed for being "too good" to play in single A. Like I've said before, the cycle of complaining will never end.

[Nebhoc471]

If you rob most of the talent from Class A by forcing or even pressuring the better teams to move to AA, then you will end up with a de facto Tier II, which only family members and friends would want to watch. At that point they should also have a JV state tournament, or better yet let those teams also compete in Tier II to see who's the best of the worst. Kind of like the NIT of high school hockey.

Only family members and friends care about the A tournament now. Just look at the number of the people in the seats during the A games. Even if you took out of A this year let's say EGF Warroad Thief Hermantown Marshall and Breck I bet attendance and TV ratings for A would remain the same. The problem with tier II was that teams were assigned a tier after the season not before. Therefore you had teams like Greenway in tier II that didn't want to be there. In A right now you only have teams that actually want to be A schools.

[Mouse in the corner]

I think we need to be careful when we are all calling for teams that are successful to move up. Imagine if Breck, Mahtomedi, Hermantown, Totino, etc all moved up. What a brutal single A tournament that would be. There's already teams that make it to state that don't belong there. It's nice watching elite teams play in BOTH the A and AA tournaments.

So you think that having a few "elite" teams in the A tournament each year beating up on small programs makes it a better tournament?

What makes it a good tournament is the parity and competition. STA & Hermantown for example kicking the crap out of everyone through sections and into the tournament doesn't make it any good, only to match up for one big game.

A few off the top of my head. Warroad, East Grand Forks, Hermantown should all move up.

Making it to the AA tournament every ten years is better than making it every year in A. The Roseau coach that said that (can't remember which one) had it right.

How about instead of focusing our attention and energy on forcing the best teams up every year, we instead focused our energy on improving our own teams/programs so that they could better compete with the "elite" programs. Maybe?

It would be like getting a promotion at work. I can sit and complain about those who are ahead of me just because they are simply better, or I can roll up my sleeves and focus on myself and getting better at what I do without worrying about my competition.

The complaining about teams that our better than our own will never stop. Some of the Hermantown contingent did it with STA and Breck and now it's Hermantown's turn to be ridiculed for being "too good" to play in single A. Like I've said before, the cycle of complaining will never end.

The thing that you miss here is how they did it. I don't think that anybody would complain about a team that got there by their hard work and skill and some luck. Most would say that is good. However the teams that you mention in your post all have a few things in common. They all recruit(ed) players to fill out their A team. While it is against the rules to recruit (wink wink nudge nudge) I am sure that lots of teams do it. I think the main problem with Hermantown and STA for sure is/was that they recruited players and then do/did not have the courage to man up and move up. The issue here is not about teams being better than our team, with 1 exception every team has a team or teams that is better than ours every year and we are OK with that. We just don't like having our noses rubbed in it when we listen to all of the excuses about how "we are a small school so we don't have the numbers to compete with the bigger ones".

The tourney would not be brutal if all you had in it were legit class A schools who played by the rules. It would look like a normal hockey game that is played by that small school where ever in MN that that small school is located at. It would be (I think) what a hockey game that we keep telling our kids to play in to have fun and to do your best and not some marketing gimic that will allow the kids playing in it to check off a box on their marketing checklist would look like.

[team22tank]

I think we need to be careful when we are all calling for teams that are successful to move up. Imagine if Breck, Mahtomedi, Hermantown, Totino, etc all moved up. What a brutal single A tournament that would be. There's already teams that make it to state that don't belong there. It's nice watching elite teams play in BOTH the A and AA tournaments.

So you think that having a few "elite" teams in the A tournament each year beating up on small programs makes it a better tournament?

What makes it a good tournament is the parity and competition. STA & Hermantown for example kicking the crap out of everyone through sections and into the tournament doesn't make it any good, only to match up for one big game.

A few off the top of my head. Warroad, East Grand Forks, Hermantown should all move up.

Making it to the AA tournament every ten years is better than making it every year in A. The Roseau coach that said that (can't remember which one) had it right.

How about instead of focusing our attention and energy on forcing the best teams up every year, we instead focused our energy on improving our own teams/programs so that they could better compete with the "elite" programs. Maybe?

It would be like getting a promotion at work. I can sit and complain about those who are ahead of me just because they are simply better, or I can roll up my sleeves and focus on myself and getting better at what I do without worrying about my competition.

The complaining about teams that our better than our own will never stop. Some of the Hermantown contingent did it with STA and Breck and now it's Hermantown's turn to be ridiculed for being "too good" to play in single A. Like I've said before, the cycle of complaining will never end.

No one is forcing anyone up first of all. I just don't get what programs like EGF, Hermantown, Warroad are so afraid of? Even in years they might not have great teams they would still always be the 3-5 seeds in section 8 AA, for example. The reason it is always Moorhead and Roseau out of 8 is because it is so watered down.

I personally would want to compete against better competition if capable.

[Shortshift]

I personally would want to compete against better competition if capable.

They already do play better competition! What if the MSHSL would limit the number of AA schools they play that are not in their conference???

[team22tank]

I personally would want to compete against better competition if capable.

They already do play better competition! What if the MSHSL would limit the number of AA schools they play that are not in their conference???

I actually like that idea a lot. If you play in A then you should play A teams during the regular season. I know that a lot of A do primarily play A teams so this would be for the outliers.

STA was a joke they would have a loaded AA regular season schedule especially in non-conference. And then feel it is appropriate to go mop up in the A sections/tournament.

[Froggy Richards]

I personally would want to compete against better competition if capable.

They already do play better competition! What if the MSHSL would limit the number of AA schools they play that are not in their conference???

I actually like that idea a lot. If you play in A then you should play A teams during the regular season. I know that a lot of A do primarily play A teams so this would be for the outliers.

STA was a joke they would have a loaded AA regular season schedule especially in non-conference. And then feel it is appropriate to go mop up in the A sections/tournament.

It's a great idea and it would solve the problem overnight. Hermantown scheduled 10 AA games this year and would take more if they could get them. They hide behind enrollment and say they're an A program. Then they go out and schedule as many AA games as they can find because that's the level they are actually at and they know it's the only way they can improve. Then they take that experience and development and use it to pound the tiny single A programs in the playoffs. Complete hypocrites. You say you're an A Program? Fine, then play an A schedule.

[MNHockeyFan]

Only family members and friends care about the A tournament now. Just look at the number of the people in the seats during the A games.

Don't they draw about 5,000 or so? The players must come from big families and have lots of friends!

My point is that if all or most of the good small school teams were to move to AA the general public (including guys like me) would lose all interest, and the quarterfinals wouldn't even be televised, just like the girls' tourney.

[Froggy Richards]

Only family members and friends care about the A tournament now. Just look at the number of the people in the seats during the A games.

Don't they draw about 5,000 or so? The players must come from big families and have lots of friends!

My point is that if all or most of the good small school teams were to move to AA the general public (including guys like me) would lose all interest, and the quarterfinals wouldn't even be televised, just like the girls' tourney.

People watch the State Tournament because it's the State Tournament. I've been watching the Class A games every year since 1992 and I have NEVER once tuned in to watch a specific team. It's High School Hockey and it's the State Tournament, that's why people watch. If anything, having the same old teams in there every single year would reduce viewership in my opinion. A Cinderella story captures the hearts and minds of TEN times as many people as a Powerhouse stomping on the heads of little guys all the way to the title. Your argument holds no water. If the only thing people were interested in is seeing the highest quality hockey, then NOBODY would be at the State Tournament. They would all be at home watching the NHL.

[hshockeyfan53]

So you think that having a few "elite" teams in the A tournament each year beating up on small programs makes it a better tournament?

What makes it a good tournament is the parity and competition. STA & Hermantown for example kicking the crap out of everyone through sections and into the tournament doesn't make it any good, only to match up for one big game.

A few off the top of my head. Warroad, East Grand Forks, Hermantown should all move up.

Making it to the AA tournament every ten years is better than making it every year in A. The Roseau coach that said that (can't remember which one) had it right.

How about instead of focusing our attention and energy on forcing the best teams up every year, we instead focused our energy on improving our own teams/programs so that they could better compete with the "elite" programs. Maybe?

It would be like getting a promotion at work. I can sit and complain about those who are ahead of me just because they are simply better, or I can roll up my sleeves and focus on myself and getting better at what I do without worrying about my competition.

The complaining about teams that our better than our own will never stop. Some of the Hermantown contingent did it with STA and Breck and now it's Hermantown's turn to be ridiculed for being "too good" to play in single A. Like I've said before, the cycle of complaining will never end.

The thing that you miss here is how they did it. I don't think that anybody would complain about a team that got there by their hard work and skill and some luck. Most would say that is good. However the teams that you mention in your post all have a few things in common. They all recruit(ed) players to fill out their A team. While it is against the rules to recruit (wink wink nudge nudge) I am sure that lots of teams do it. I think the main problem with Hermantown and STA for sure is/was that they recruited players and then do/did not have the courage to man up and move up. The issue here is not about teams being better than our team, with 1 exception every team has a team or teams that is better than ours every year and we are OK with that. We just don't like having our noses rubbed in it when we listen to all of the excuses about how "we are a small school so we don't have the numbers to compete with the bigger ones".

You are delusional if you think EGF, Warroad, Hermantown, Mahtomedi, and other successful single A programs recruited their teams. The MAJORITY of the players who make varsity are a product of their excellent youth feeder programs. Of course there are always exceptions but it's not like we are talking about Duluth Marshall or STA here. They are on their own level when it comes to recruiting.

[Froggy Richards]

How about instead of focusing our attention and energy on forcing the best teams up every year, we instead focused our energy on improving our own teams/programs so that they could better compete with the "elite" programs. Maybe?

It would be like getting a promotion at work. I can sit and complain about those who are ahead of me just because they are simply better, or I can roll up my sleeves and focus on myself and getting better at what I do without worrying about my competition.

The complaining about teams that our better than our own will never stop. Some of the Hermantown contingent did it with STA and Breck and now it's Hermantown's turn to be ridiculed for being "too good" to play in single A. Like I've said before, the cycle of complaining will never end.

The thing that you miss here is how they did it. I don't think that anybody would complain about a team that got there by their hard work and skill and some luck. Most would say that is good. However the teams that you mention in your post all have a few things in common. They all recruit(ed) players to fill out their A team. While it is against the rules to recruit (wink wink nudge nudge) I am sure that lots of teams do it. I think the main problem with Hermantown and STA for sure is/was that they recruited players and then do/did not have the courage to man up and move up. The issue here is not about teams being better than our team, with 1 exception every team has a team or teams that is better than ours every year and we are OK with that. We just don't like having our noses rubbed in it when we listen to all of the excuses about how "we are a small school so we don't have the numbers to compete with the bigger ones".

You are delusional if you think EGF, Warroad, Hermantown, Mahtomedi, and other successful single A programs recruited their teams. The MAJORITY of the players who make varsity are a product of their excellent youth feeder programs. Of course there are always exceptions but it's not like we are talking about Duluth Marshall or STA here. They are on their own level when it comes to recruiting.

He was responding to your previous post and said, "The teams that you mention in your post." You mentioned STA, Breck and Hermantown. Not EGF, Warroad or Mahtomedi.

[warriors41]

How about if your enrollment is the same or above Roseau and you can expect to make the AA tournament once every fifty years you should opt up. And if you don't then we tar and feather the coach, AD, players, an everyone who is against the idea.

[Traxler]

How about if your enrollment is the same or above Roseau and you can expect to make the AA tournament once every fifty years you should opt up. And if you don't then we tar and feather the coach, AD, players, an everyone who is against the idea.

You must not be from Warroad, even with that handle.

[hshockeyfan53]

The thing that you miss here is how they did it. I don't think that anybody would complain about a team that got there by their hard work and skill and some luck. Most would say that is good. However the teams that you mention in your post all have a few things in common. They all recruit(ed) players to fill out their A team. While it is against the rules to recruit (wink wink nudge nudge) I am sure that lots of teams do it. I think the main problem with Hermantown and STA for sure is/was that they recruited players and then do/did not have the courage to man up and move up. The issue here is not about teams being better than our team, with 1 exception every team has a team or teams that is better than ours every year and we are OK with that. We just don't like having our noses rubbed in it when we listen to all of the excuses about how "we are a small school so we don't have the numbers to compete with the bigger ones".

You are delusional if you think EGF, Warroad, Hermantown, Mahtomedi, and other successful single A programs recruited their teams. The MAJORITY of the players who make varsity are a product of their excellent youth feeder programs. Of course there are always exceptions but it's not like we are talking about Duluth Marshall or STA here. They are on their own level when it comes to recruiting.

He was responding to your previous post and said, "The teams that you mention in your post." You mentioned STA, Breck and Hermantown. Not EGF, Warroad or Mahtomedi.

Oh my fault. I was about to politely lose it.

[warriors41]

How about if your enrollment is the same or above Roseau and you can expect to make the AA tournament once every fifty years you should opt up. And if you don't then we tar and feather the coach, AD, players, an everyone who is against the idea.

You must not be from Warroad, even with that handle.

I was being overly dramatic. A lot of people are acting like it's cowardly to play class A and something to be ashamed of. It isn't. People say that since Roseau opts up, everyone should look for their opportunity to. That's not the case. I'm glad they've found success opting up but it isn't fair to apply that standard to every good class A team.

[Teak]

Those schools with a hockey tradition (like the Range schools) would probably opt up if they had the same enrollments they did at their peak enrollment years. You'll always have schools like Hermantown that are satisfied with annual trips to state and runner-up finishes but other programs like Roseau, Rapids, Bemidji and Cloquet have too much pride and want to compete with the best and will opt up.

Hahahaha ... you win my Humour Points for the week! Thank you!

[Teak]

Talk that Hermantown and Mahtomedi should move got me looking at school enrollment.

Perhaps these school should jump to AA...
School approximate school enrollment

Waconia 14030
Chaska 1150
Henry Sibley 1170

Minneapolis ????

Yes, it is WELL past time that Waconia should have opted up to AA. Or maybe even AAA.

[HockeyBum]

How stupid does that sound? Just because a team has quality parents and coaching staff and has the ability to show success at their level doesnt mean an organization should move up.

The mentality of this thread shows why your teams struggle. Get rid of the best and we will have more to be proud of, instead of figuring out how to improve and emmulate the better teams.

I will tell you all this much. Hermantown, Warroad, Roseau, etc... (small communities with good hockey programs) have one thing in common. They all have a lot of parents and coaches at the youth program that are accomplished hockey players and come from a ong line of successful hockey programs. They get it and know how to compete and they instill that same mentality in their kids.

Its not about numbers at all. Its about quality parents, quality coaches, quality youth hockey leadership (board of directors). It is also a commitment to ongoing skills development and training year round (sacrafice). Once a program shows some success others want to be a part of that. These teams dont have to recruit, EGF, Roseau, Warroad, Hermantown, etc... are the benifactor of a successful program and people move into town to be a part of that.

This conversation comes up every year and all you are doing is having a pitty party because it is hard to develop a quality organization and community.

Maybe you look at changing the rules to completely prevent players moving to new programs. All of these outstates teams loss players and their organization goes down hill because 1-2 players leave for greener pastures.

[pekyman]

How stupid does that sound? Just because a team has quality parents and coaching staff and has the ability to show success at their level doesnt mean an organization should move up.

The mentality of this thread shows why your teams struggle. Get rid of the best and we will have more to be proud of, instead of figuring out how to improve and emmulate the better teams.

I will tell you all this much. Hermantown, Warroad, Roseau, etc... (small communities with good hockey programs) have one thing in common. They all have a lot of parents and coaches at the youth program that are accomplished hockey players and come from a ong line of successful hockey programs. They get it and know how to compete and they instill that same mentality in their kids.

Its not about numbers at all. Its about quality parents, quality coaches, quality youth hockey leadership (board of directors). It is also a commitment to ongoing skills development and training year round (sacrafice). Once a program shows some success others want to be a part of that. These teams dont have to recruit, EGF, Roseau, Warroad, Hermantown, etc... are the benifactor of a successful program and people move into town to be a part of that.

This conversation comes up every year and all you are doing is having a pitty party because it is hard to develop a quality organization and community.

Maybe you look at changing the rules to completely prevent players moving to new programs. All of these outstates teams loss players and their organization goes down hill because 1-2 players leave for greener pastures.

Wow some common sense on this thread!

[elliott70]

How stupid does that sound? Just because a team has quality parents and coaching staff and has the ability to show success at their level doesnt mean an organization should move up.

The mentality of this thread shows why your teams struggle. Get rid of the best and we will have more to be proud of, instead of figuring out how to improve and emmulate the better teams.

I will tell you all this much. Hermantown, Warroad, Roseau, etc... (small communities with good hockey programs) have one thing in common. They all have a lot of parents and coaches at the youth program that are accomplished hockey players and come from a ong line of successful hockey programs. They get it and know how to compete and they instill that same mentality in their kids.

Its not about numbers at all. Its about quality parents, quality coaches, quality youth hockey leadership (board of directors). It is also a commitment to ongoing skills development and training year round (sacrafice). Once a program shows some success others want to be a part of that. These teams dont have to recruit, EGF, Roseau, Warroad, Hermantown, etc... are the benifactor of a successful program and people move into town to be a part of that.

This conversation comes up every year and all you are doing is having a pitty party because it is hard to develop a quality organization and community.

Maybe you look at changing the rules to completely prevent players moving to new programs. All of these outstates teams loss players and their organization goes down hill because 1-2 players leave for greener pastures.

Geez.....