Minnetonka Bench Shortening

royals dad · Post by **royals dad** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 1:02 pm

inthestands wrote:Is there a high school team, hockey or not, that would treat a game like the one referenced here, different than Coach Johnson did?

Are the players on this team complaining, or giving negative feedback?

From my experience, most of the teams "players" I've been involved with enjoy winning quite a lot. Especially coming into the end of the regular season.

It is really a hard pill for a parent to swallow, that their son or daughter who worked so hard for so many years is now a senior on a JV swing line that sees very little ice in a varsity season. For Lake Conference teams like Tonka it is really from Christmas on that bench starts to slim down. Most of them have worked just as hard as the starters, gone to every on ice and off ice session. They gave up their other sports and much of their social life, what did it get them a view from the bench. When this happened to me growing up my dad said "fair is where you go to eat corn dogs", now I think people blame the coach more then they did back then.

Cant tell you how many times I heard people complain about it over the years, then I would see the 3rd line get out and suddenly the other coach would jump the 1st line trapping us in our zone until an icing, a frozen puck, or a goal. Then the complaint changes to if they played more they would be better. In truth they play against our first two lines every day, we don't see it but the coach does. The coach knows what they have more than the parents do, in truth its not anyone's fault, some kids become elite athletes some don't. If your a 3rd or 4th liner your role is to work as hard as you can in practice all week to push the kid ahead of you so they get better, maybe you will make yourself into a player who can play a regular shift or maybe not. It isn't any more fair that some kids just get pre-calc A's and others work their tails off to get by with a C, hey advanced math just isnt your thing.

Get the 3rd line parents out of the helicopter, quite complaining, and enjoy cheering for the team and not just your kid. As much as I dont like Tonka, EJ has always come off as a coach who treats his players respectfully and they seem to improve from the beginning of the season to the end. To me that is what that really counts. Now hopefully they lay an egg Wednesday.

puckdaddy99 · Post by **puckdaddy99** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:55 pm

Royals I respect your post, and the question I have is depth. Pretty good article in Sunday's sports section on Giles and edina and how he lost playing a shortened bench a few years back to HM with his stars getting the majority of ice time. They ran out of gas. He learned and admitted this mistake in the article and adapted. Now he plays three lines and wins two championships.

The point is Tonka's 3rd line could be a lot of 2nd and sometimes 1st lines for other programs. They clearly have the depth not to shorten the bench. The majority of all the bigger programs has the ability to play lines consistently.

I understand this mentality in smaller programs and the 3rd line may be all freshman, but I think their is plenty of opportunity to roll three lines at Tonka, and it takes courage and actual courage to coach Roll Tide Roll

MN_Bowhunter · Post by **MN_Bowhunter** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:56 pm

royals dad wrote:
It is really a hard pill for a parent to swallow, that their son or daughter who worked so hard for so many years is now a senior on a JV swing line that sees very little ice in a varsity season. For Lake Conference teams like Tonka it is really from Christmas on that bench starts to slim down. Most of them have worked just as hard as the starters, gone to every on ice and off ice session. They gave up their other sports and much of their social life, what did it get them a view from the bench. When this happened to me growing up my dad said "fair is where you go to eat corn dogs", now I think people blame the coach more then they did back then.

Cant tell you how many times I heard people complain about it over the years, then I would see the 3rd line get out and suddenly the other coach would jump the 1st line trapping us in our zone until an icing, a frozen puck, or a goal. Then the complaint changes to if they played more they would be better. In truth they play against our first two lines every day, we don't see it but the coach does. The coach knows what they have more than the parents do, in truth its not anyone's fault, some kids become elite athletes some don't. If your a 3rd or 4th liner your role is to work as hard as you can in practice all week to push the kid ahead of you so they get better, maybe you will make yourself into a player who can play a regular shift or maybe not. It isn't any more fair that some kids just get pre-calc A's and others work their tails off to get by with a C, hey advanced math just isnt your thing.

Get the 3rd line parents out of the helicopter, quite complaining, and enjoy cheering for the team and not just your kid. As much as I dont like Tonka, EJ has always come off as a coach who treats his players respectfully and they seem to improve from the beginning of the season to the end. To me that is what that really counts. Now hopefully they lay an egg Wednesday.

Well put. I would add there is lots of playing time to be had at 50 or more schools where your 3rd line player at Tonka would be a 1st liner. Plenty of kids changing schools chasing titles, why can't they change schools to chase playing time? You can have a title and not much ice, or lots of ice and no title.

Reminds me of when I was dating two women at the same time, I really liked them both so I asked my dad for some advice. He said "Son, you can't have your Kate and Edith, too."

Tigers33 · Post by **Tigers33** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:57 pm

Royals dad - you said it best. Cheer for the TEAM!!

MNHockeyFan · Post by **MNHockeyFan** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:08 pm

puckdaddy99 wrote:Pretty good article in Sunday's sports section on Giles and edina and how he lost playing a shortened bench a few years back to HM with his stars getting the majority of ice time. They ran out of gas. He learned and admitted this mistake in the article and adapted. Now he plays three lines and wins two championships.

That was a great article (actually three articles - linked on the Boy's hub) and this excerpt is telling:

"After his team’s title game loss in 2013, Hill-Murray forward Willie Brown told the media he felt like Edina 'had 100 people on the bench because they kept coming at us hard. They were relentless'.”

"And last March, Edina’s depth was Lakeville North’s demise. The top three forward lines each chipped in at least two goals."

But you do have to have some decent depth to make it work, and the Edina teams do have depth.

royals dad · Post by **royals dad** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:10 pm

puckdaddy99 wrote:Royals I respect your post, and the question I have is depth. Pretty good article in Sunday's sports section on Giles and edina and how he lost playing a shortened bench a few years back to HM with his stars getting the majority of ice time. They ran out of gas. He learned and admitted this mistake in the article and adapted. Now he plays three lines and wins two championships.

The point is Tonka's 3rd line could be a lot of 2nd and sometimes 1st lines for other programs. They clearly have the depth not to shorten the bench. The majority of all the bigger programs has the ability to play lines consistently.

I understand this mentality in smaller programs and the 3rd line may be all freshman, but I think their is plenty of opportunity to roll three lines at Tonka, and it takes courage and actual courage to coach Roll Tide Roll

I liked that article on Sunday, pretty unique numbers situation. I have a friend in common with a players parents on Giles team, one of the top kids, big social media attack on the kid last year started by parents of another player who didn't get enough play time. Even at Edina someone gets cut or benched and feels the coach has it wrong. Giles job was saved by the Budish, Lee line, now his success has given him free reign to do what ever he wants.

I saw Tonka JV and Varsity 3 times this year (I watched the JV more closely), not knocking them in any way but to say they are sitting on an extra line of ready to roll varsity players is just not true. Cupboard is by no means bare but I don't think they have an extra line that could at least hold serve with the #1 lines in the lake. Now what Giles is chasing, and what no boys coach has ever done is win three straight. EJ did that, and during that 3 season stretch pretty much 5 players (4 at a time) played D for varsity. That means 3 or 4 D players in each birth year that came up through the youth program for the most part never skated varsity. Only one of the D from the state runs is still there and they are still at or near the top. You can say you hate the way he does it but if you argue it wont lead to success your sunk before your fingers hit the keyboard.

puckdreams · Post by **puckdreams** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:15 pm

PD99:
Why the pointed interest in how Minnetonka runs their program, doles out playing time, etc.,? From what I gather, you are a Maple Grove Girls' HS Hockey Team supporter and likely a taxpayer in District 279. As far as I am aware, the Minnetonka Girl's Team and coaching staff operates within the rules of the MSHSL.

Generally, the issues you allude too are governed by policies, procedures and practices that are developed within the individual School's Athletic/Activities Department and managed by the School's Staff that oversees those programs. Further, dissatisfaction related to these types of issues is usually raised by adults who are concerned about the playing time being allotted players on their particular school's team.

On this forum you seem to have displayed an inordinate interest in the inner workings of another School District's Athletic/Activities Department.
If I have misread this situation. please point me in the right direction. If there is more to this story please share with this forum.

alcloseshaver · Post by **alcloseshaver** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:29 pm

I haven't followed the Tonka team at all but have they been blessed with high end D1 talent for the last 3 years. It would seem easy to rely heavily on your superstars then roll three lines. MG has some very skilled players but they seem closer in ability through three lines. Several ways to approach the game.

Tigers33 · Post by **Tigers33** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:57 pm

I would take the character and class of minnetonka's coach any day over that of the head coach at maple grove. Just sayin!

puckdaddy99 · Post by **puckdaddy99** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:27 pm

royals dad wrote:
puckdaddy99 wrote:Royals I respect your post, and the question I have is depth. Pretty good article in Sunday's sports section on Giles and edina and how he lost playing a shortened bench a few years back to HM with his stars getting the majority of ice time. They ran out of gas. He learned and admitted this mistake in the article and adapted. Now he plays three lines and wins two championships.

The point is Tonka's 3rd line could be a lot of 2nd and sometimes 1st lines for other programs. They clearly have the depth not to shorten the bench. The majority of all the bigger programs has the ability to play lines consistently.

I understand this mentality in smaller programs and the 3rd line may be all freshman, but I think their is plenty of opportunity to roll three lines at Tonka, and it takes courage and actual courage to coach Roll Tide Roll
I liked that article on Sunday, pretty unique numbers situation. I have a friend in common with a players parents on Giles team, one of the top kids, big social media attack on the kid last year started by parents of another player who didn't get enough play time. Even at Edina someone gets cut or benched and feels the coach has it wrong. Giles job was saved by the Budish, Lee line, now his success has given him free reign to do what ever he wants.

I saw Tonka JV and Varsity 3 times this year (I watched the JV more closely), not knocking them in any way but to say they are sitting on an extra line of ready to roll varsity players is just not true. Cupboard is by no means bare but I don't think they have an extra line that could at least hold serve with the #1 lines in the lake. Now what Giles is chasing, and what no boys coach has ever done is win three straight. EJ did that, and during that 3 season stretch pretty much 5 players (4 at a time) played D for varsity. That means 3 or 4 D players in each birth year that came up through the youth program for the most part never skated varsity. Only one of the D from the state runs is still there and they are still at or near the top. You can say you hate the way he does it but if you argue it wont lead to success your sunk before your fingers hit the keyboard.

Not sure what the reference is for JV and a line from their JV that is ready to play varsity? Tonka has three lines on varsity now, so I would assume no need for a JV line. The depth is there to roll three, but that takes courage and coaching. You can't argue that girls hockey is turning into the haves and have nots based on the scoring from the first two rounds of sections. It doesn't help anyone when we win 8-1 in our first game. I just have more respect for those programs that roll three lines and since we are in AMERICA we have have the opportunity to voice our opinion Roll Tide Roll

(plus I love to get 36 all riled up)

puckdaddy99 · Post by **puckdaddy99** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:30 pm

Tigers33 wrote:I would take the character and class of minnetonka's coach any day over that of the head coach at maple grove. Just sayin!

Be careful Tigger... just saying Roll Tide Roll

D6 Girls Fan · Post by **D6 Girls Fan** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:46 pm

Not playing a 3rd line regularly? Not unique, not unexpected, not a sin in anyone's book.

inthestands · Post by **inthestands** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 1:50 pm

"MOST" times this is a parental issue, and not a player point of contention.

Not saying it's right or wrong, but each situation requires a different look and decision making process.

PondHockeyChampion · Post by **PondHockeyChampion** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:38 am

"Coaches are really the most important and influential individuals in youth and high school hockey. The head coach is responsible for creating the atmosphere for the players and parents. It does take a courageous individual to lead people in a direction that might be considered different than others. It takes a committed coach to ensure that every player on the team gets the opportunity to learn, develop and play.
Good coaches will work hard with the lower-skilled players to bring them up to the level of the other players. Lazy coaches simply shorten their bench and take the easy route. In the end, short benches will work on the scoreboard about 50 percent of the time, but at season’s end, very rarely will the strategy work as the participating players are tired, maybe injured and the rest of the kids not really part of the team.
Having to play several games over a playoff weekend and using a short bench approach is a quick road to elimination as several teams found out over the years when playing against my teams. I see this happen at the high school level also. Team means everybody; win, lose, tie together. At the end of the day, it is just a game.
Does it take courage to do the right thing? Not really. It simply means understanding what is really important and in hockey participation – learning, fun and playing the game are what matters to kids.
See you around the rink ...."

hockeywild7 · Post by **hockeywild7** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:05 pm

What sport doesn't "shorten" the bench? Ever go to a basketball, soccer, football, volleyball game?? You think they play all their players? Keeping with the topic of hockey coaches. Some of you say a "good" coach doesn't shorten his bench but develops his/her players? Ever watch a Wild game? gopher mens or womens game? I have and they all shorten the bench when they have too. Maybe you should call coach Yeo and tell him to start cutting Suters minutes because some of the other D need to develop. Shouldn't they all get to play power play as well? Just sayin

Jiblet · Post by **Jiblet** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:35 pm

Up 7-2 in a playoff game and Tonka still can't put their 3rd or 4th line out for some experience? They must have zero confidence in those girls!

PondHockeyChampion · Post by **PondHockeyChampion** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:49 pm

Jiblet wrote:Up 7-2 in a playoff game and Tonka still can't put their 3rd or 4th line out for some experience? They must have zero confidence in those girls!

Was this true? Even with this big of a lead they stayed with the top two lines? Form the scoresheet the game never seemed in doubt, why would you do this?

Gov78 · Post by **Gov78** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:58 pm

royals dad wrote:
puckdaddy99 wrote:Royals I respect your post, and the question I have is depth. Pretty good article in Sunday's sports section on Giles and edina and how he lost playing a shortened bench a few years back to HM with his stars getting the majority of ice time. They ran out of gas. He learned and admitted this mistake in the article and adapted. Now he plays three lines and wins two championships.

The point is Tonka's 3rd line could be a lot of 2nd and sometimes 1st lines for other programs. They clearly have the depth not to shorten the bench. The majority of all the bigger programs has the ability to play lines consistently.

I understand this mentality in smaller programs and the 3rd line may be all freshman, but I think their is plenty of opportunity to roll three lines at Tonka, and it takes courage and actual courage to coach Roll Tide Roll
I liked that article on Sunday, pretty unique numbers situation. I have a friend in common with a players parents on Giles team, one of the top kids, big social media attack on the kid last year started by parents of another player who didn't get enough play time. Even at Edina someone gets cut or benched and feels the coach has it wrong. Giles job was saved by the Budish, Lee line, now his success has given him free reign to do what ever he wants.

I saw Tonka JV and Varsity 3 times this year (I watched the JV more closely), not knocking them in any way but to say they are sitting on an extra line of ready to roll varsity players is just not true. Cupboard is by no means bare but I don't think they have an extra line that could at least hold serve with the #1 lines in the lake. Now what Giles is chasing, and what no boys coach has ever done is win three straight. EJ did that, and during that 3 season stretch pretty much 5 players (4 at a time) played D for varsity. That means 3 or 4 D players in each birth year that came up through the youth program for the most part never skated varsity. Only one of the D from the state runs is still there and they are still at or near the top. You can say you hate the way he does it but if you argue it wont lead to success your sunk before your fingers hit the keyboard.

My daughter had exactly that experience at Tonka, came up through the program but as a D never made varsity although she did get to suit up and play a couple regular season games as a Sr. off the JV and made the section and state roster but never saw the ice in State Tournament.

For the most she was fine with it all as most of her friends were on JV (she had played down in youth hockey due to starting late and her birth date) and she enjoyed playing every game as one of the better players on team and was the captain.

Our daughter ended up with a state champion medal, an experience she'll never forget and she went on to 3 years of "A" club level hockey at a D1 school where'll she graduate this spring. She could've played starting varsity for nearly any other team but that's not HS is about for us.

Gov78 · Post by **Gov78** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:06 pm

Jiblet wrote:Up 7-2 in a playoff game and Tonka still can't put their 3rd or 4th line out for some experience? They must have zero confidence in those girls!

Would Hopkins match their 3rd or 4th line? Nope, and at this level and point of season what would be the feel good moment you're looking for? Most likely it would be a very one sided shift with the 3rd and 4th line girls feeling they let their team down if opponents scored.

luckyEPDad · Post by **luckyEPDad** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:11 pm

Jiblet wrote:Up 7-2 in a playoff game and Tonka still can't put their 3rd or 4th line out for some experience? They must have zero confidence in those girls!

Do they even bring a forth line? I've only ever seen three lines on the bench.

At the EP/Holy Family game I had an "expert" (nobody I recognized) behind me loudly proclaiming that "During the playoffs you never take your foot off the gas!" This was in response to EP scoring their seventh goal during a power play in the opening minute of the 3rd. He was quite disgruntled when EP rolled the entire bench for the remainder of the game. There were no more goals, but some great scoring chances were created by girls who might be collecting splinters if the coach had a similar mentality.

It is important to win now, but it is also important to win tomorrow. The coach expressed confidence in five girls who don't play a lot. They will repay him for that confidence next year.

luckyEPDad · Post by **luckyEPDad** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:17 pm

Gov78 wrote:
Jiblet wrote:Up 7-2 in a playoff game and Tonka still can't put their 3rd or 4th line out for some experience? They must have zero confidence in those girls!
Would Hopkins match their 3rd or 4th line? Nope, and at this level and point of season what would be the feel good moment you're looking for? Most likely it would be a very one sided shift with the 3rd and 4th line girls feeling they let their team down if opponents scored.

I'm pretty sure Tonka's 3rd line can shut down almost anyone's first or second line. I know a few of the girls (watching them play for 12 years) and they are not the type who want to sit on the bench They believe down to their toes that they can play with anyone and that they will make important contributions given a chance. If they weren't given a chance it was a blown opportunity.

36Guy · Post by **36Guy** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:18 pm

Gov78 · Post by **Gov78** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:21 pm

luckyEPDad wrote:
Gov78 wrote:
Jiblet wrote:Up 7-2 in a playoff game and Tonka still can't put their 3rd or 4th line out for some experience? They must have zero confidence in those girls!
Would Hopkins match their 3rd or 4th line? Nope, and at this level and point of season what would be the feel good moment you're looking for? Most likely it would be a very one sided shift with the 3rd and 4th line girls feeling they let their team down if opponents scored.
I'm pretty sure Tonka's 3rd line can shut down almost anyone's first or second line. I know a few of the girls (watching them play for 12 years) and they are not the type who want to sit on the bench They believe down to their toes that they can play with anyone and that they will make important contributions given a chance. If they weren't given a chance it was a blown opportunity.

Quite possible as I'll have to defer to you as my live viewing of HS hockey boys & girls has dropped off quite a bit with no kids now in HS.

PondHockeyChampion · Post by **PondHockeyChampion** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:27 pm

Huge upset tonight with PD's team going down in a blaze. I have to imagine they went to two lines exclusively when down since that is the norm with everyone now and where did that get them? It appears they still lost.

36Guy · Post by **36Guy** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:29 pm

36Guy wrote:
Jiblet wrote:Up 7-2 in a playoff game and Tonka still can't put their 3rd or 4th line out for some experience? They must have zero confidence in those girls!
Clueless..played everyone. Check the box score, it was a Jv kid not even a 3rd liner in the penalty box, in addition our 3rd line left wing had goals in the 1st and 2nd period, so unless she scored from the bench, she played! #24 played 4th line all year and had an assist and #4 also had a great assist. Check the score sheet it doesn't lie. No problem with anyones take. PLEASE WRITE ACCURATE INFORMATION!