I'm not involved with the HS football scene. How does their system work? (I could look it up, but I'd probably have more questions than answers)sinbin wrote:You learn from football.
8AA
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UpNorthMom
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alcloseshaver
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Football has the top 32 enrollment wise in it's top class, All metro teams. Eliminated conference play and all teams have been assigned a section in which to schedule opponents. Postseason remains unchanged except for some minor tweaks to the top class. Not sure what you would want to change in girls hockey, very few out state AA programs. State tournament field looks fine to me, 6AA had three good teams, most other sections at least 2 good teams. Not broken.
Thank you for the explanation of the football system. Much appreciated. I agree with you, I don't think the system is broken either.alcloseshaver wrote:Football has the top 32 enrollment wise in it's top class, All metro teams. Eliminated conference play and all teams have been assigned a section in which to schedule opponents. Postseason remains unchanged except for some minor tweaks to the top class. Not sure what you would want to change in girls hockey, very few out state AA programs. State tournament field looks fine to me, 6AA had three good teams, most other sections at least 2 good teams. Not broken.
Extend the football cross-over concept and re-seed in the semis. I forget the poster here, but I've seen him post something similar several times, and is on the right track. Our daughters won't benefit from this, but our grand-daughters will. Change is slow and inertia is powerful, but it will happen. It solves the issue that some bring up of ebbs and flows of section strength. Some might also bemoan the loss of section rivalries, but given the choice, would you rather see EP and Edina at the X or at Richfield? Would you rather see #1 Tonka and #2 BSMat the X or at Parade? But, of course, since it makes too much sense, it will take a long time to happen, but it will.Lace'emUp wrote:I'm not involved with the HS football scene. How does their system work? (I could look it up, but I'd probably have more questions than answers)sinbin wrote:You learn from football.
Last edited by sinbin on Sat Feb 14, 2015 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bulldog3489
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Not 100% sure but were all AA section finals decided in the third period or overtime? I also understand that most (all?) were played in front of packed houses. Hard to top that.
I think if the school league dropped geography and just focused on getting the truly best teams from state you would see even more private school domination and more top player movement to a handful of programs.
I think if the school league dropped geography and just focused on getting the truly best teams from state you would see even more private school domination and more top player movement to a handful of programs.
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imnotwearingacup
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It's fantastic to see small rinks full and intense OT games to go to state! Not particularly concerned with who goes to state, but how is your point relevant. A weak section has two weak teams in the Championship, an average section has two average teams and a great section has two great teams. Would the rinks be empty if they were all great teams in the final? No logic here, rinks would be full with fans either way. Good luck to all though, they all played their way in.Bulldog3489 wrote:Not 100% sure but were all AA section finals decided in the third period or overtime? I also understand that most (all?) were played in front of packed houses. Hard to top that.
I think if the school league dropped geography and just focused on getting the truly best teams from state you would see even more private school domination and more top player movement to a handful of programs.
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Bulldog3489
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By going to a neutral site, that is not determined until three days before the final, the section has set themselves up for scheduling issues. I don't know the story, but could it be that Bemidji was booked for Friday night? Rinks normally don't leave prime ice just hanging for a "what could be."lrugland wrote:I think you need to drive north more often.Orange_Wisent wrote:How soon Roseau fans forget, they played last year in the section final and buffalo drove close to 4 hours and Roseau drove a little over an hour played in bemidji.
Roseau to Brainerd 230 miles
Buffalo to Brainerd 98 miles
Roseau to Bemidji 135 miles
Buffalo to Bemidji 187 miles
You can not argue with math. And we do not forget the games we play. We have to drive for all of them.
Back in the 70's and 80's, section 8 (boys) used to play at either TRF or EGF, given their seating capacity. If one of those teams was participating, maybe they had an edge.
Even today, in 8A, Warroad will host the section semi's and finals. As the #3 seed, should they get to the semi's they will likely be playing the #2 seed on home ice.
Maybe what the girls teams should do is pick a site. Play two games on a Thursday, two on a Friday, semi's on Saturday and Monday, with the final on Thursday. Do it in Bemidji, Brainerd, Moorhead, or St. Cloud, and take the guess work out of it.
The problem with predetermining sites is that one of the reasons the Metro State High School League goes with geographic sections is to try and keep travel to a minimum. Section 8AA in girls hockey is arguably the largest geographical section in any sport of MN.
8A rotates their tournament from Warraod, to TRF to Crookston and you get what you get. This year it was in Crookston.
The problem with predetermining sections is when two teams from the north or two from the south make the final. If you predetermine that the final will be in the MAC and Roseau faces Bemidji, that's ridiculus. Same could be said for predetermining an arena in Bemdji and Buffalo is playing North Wright County.
I believe that's the reason 8AA waits until the last minute to find an arena. They want to do the best they can for both teams, but sometimes the ideal spot isn't available.
Possible solution. Let's say the MSHSL gets it right this year and 8AA goes back to 8 teams. Split them 4 North and 4 South, Play the Quarters by geography, then cross over for semi's and play them at predetermined arena. The crossover means if the top 2 teams are from the north (or south) will have the opportunity of meeting in the final. Maybe the final is predetermined, one north site, one south, or maybe it's not.
Split of the section may look like this next year:
North: Roseau, Bemidji, Moorhead, Brainerd.
South: St. Cloud, River Lakes, Sartell/SR, North Wright County.
You could change Alexandria out for NWC, because they may be AA next year due to enrollment.
8A rotates their tournament from Warraod, to TRF to Crookston and you get what you get. This year it was in Crookston.
The problem with predetermining sections is when two teams from the north or two from the south make the final. If you predetermine that the final will be in the MAC and Roseau faces Bemidji, that's ridiculus. Same could be said for predetermining an arena in Bemdji and Buffalo is playing North Wright County.
I believe that's the reason 8AA waits until the last minute to find an arena. They want to do the best they can for both teams, but sometimes the ideal spot isn't available.
Possible solution. Let's say the MSHSL gets it right this year and 8AA goes back to 8 teams. Split them 4 North and 4 South, Play the Quarters by geography, then cross over for semi's and play them at predetermined arena. The crossover means if the top 2 teams are from the north (or south) will have the opportunity of meeting in the final. Maybe the final is predetermined, one north site, one south, or maybe it's not.
Split of the section may look like this next year:
North: Roseau, Bemidji, Moorhead, Brainerd.
South: St. Cloud, River Lakes, Sartell/SR, North Wright County.
You could change Alexandria out for NWC, because they may be AA next year due to enrollment.
Gerrymandering: a guy named Gerry created a voting district that looks like a salamander to favor his own political party. Sleazy, slimy, dishonest, lazy, corrupt, hypocrite politicians have been using this tactic for a couple hundred years--so how could the MSHSL resist?
I have to believe when they created the Girls AA Hockey Sections that the folks from up North signed off on it. Meaning there's always a possibility of having two teams in the State Tournament with the risk of having zero. At least a few times we've had Roseau in 8AA and GRG or CEC in 7AA. And we've always had at least one or the other. This is the first time I can remember that there have been zero. It was just a matter of time. Maybe it's time to combine GRG/Duluth/CEC with Bemidji/Moorhead/Roseau/Sartell/Brainerd to guarantee one Northern team. But then there will only be one with no possiblity of a second one (unless St Cloud really ramps up their program). Andover, NWC, Buffalo, Elk River and Forest Lake will be put together in a different section with St Cloud and River Lakes and a couple other north suburban teams.
I have to believe when they created the Girls AA Hockey Sections that the folks from up North signed off on it. Meaning there's always a possibility of having two teams in the State Tournament with the risk of having zero. At least a few times we've had Roseau in 8AA and GRG or CEC in 7AA. And we've always had at least one or the other. This is the first time I can remember that there have been zero. It was just a matter of time. Maybe it's time to combine GRG/Duluth/CEC with Bemidji/Moorhead/Roseau/Sartell/Brainerd to guarantee one Northern team. But then there will only be one with no possiblity of a second one (unless St Cloud really ramps up their program). Andover, NWC, Buffalo, Elk River and Forest Lake will be put together in a different section with St Cloud and River Lakes and a couple other north suburban teams.
Interesting concept -- this would actually be a geographically larger section than going North/ South twice over -- and would you do the same for class A? I think a chance at having two north at the risk of none is always better, but maybe not.Otter wrote:Gerrymandering: a guy named Gerry created a voting district that looks like a salamander to favor his own political party. Sleazy, slimy, dishonest, lazy, corrupt, hypocrite politicians have been using this tactic for a couple hundred years--so how could the MSHSL resist?
I have to believe when they created the Girls AA Hockey Sections that the folks from up North signed off on it. Meaning there's always a possibility of having two teams in the State Tournament with the risk of having zero. At least a few times we've had Roseau in 8AA and GRG or CEC in 7AA. And we've always had at least one or the other. This is the first time I can remember that there have been zero. It was just a matter of time. Maybe it's time to combine GRG/Duluth/CEC with Bemidji/Moorhead/Roseau/Sartell/Brainerd to guarantee one Northern team. But then there will only be one with no possiblity of a second one (unless St Cloud really ramps up their program). Andover, NWC, Buffalo, Elk River and Forest Lake will be put together in a different section with St Cloud and River Lakes and a couple other north suburban teams.
Class A is very different because the percentage of schools is way larger in the 'outstate' group. Just spitballing, say the number of metro vs outstate in AA is 80-20% in favor of the metro teams, Class A might be 70-30% in favor of outstate. The A sections don't match up with the AA geographically.goaline wrote:
Interesting concept -- this would actually be a geographically larger section than going North/ South twice over -- and would you do the same for class A? I think a chance at having two north at the risk of none is always better, but maybe not.
At some point you could throw Lakeville South and North in with other suburban teams (like Section 3AA) and guarantee a southern Minnesota team in Section 1AA. If that's something people want I mean.