2015 State tournament Seedings and Discussion

[Lace'emUp]

imnotwearingacup,

Yes it is The Blake School of 1900's fault! I wouldn't blame the players, but the coach and AD need to step up and play with the big girls. It's pretty obvious to most of the state!

Congrats on winning the small 'town" state championship AGAIN.

Why is Blake getting bashed now? Blake can choose to stay at A if they want. In HS Hockey it is the coaches job to win, not worry about what others may say, or what may be fair to the other teams especially ones that only get 3 shots on goal for an entire game.

The coach and AD are doing everything to win, just like shortening the bench, there is nothing wrong with this approach as long as you win.

As a coach and AD they can do everything and anything they want as long as they win, this is HS hockey now and at this level it is all about winning and not fairsy.

Posters should not be hypocrites and say Blake needs to move up to AA because they are winning too much at A. Isn't it all about the trophies and how many Championships they can accumulate? As long as they continue to win, they can coach and stay at the level they choose. And you just need to accept that and move on, life isn't fair. Blake does not have to move up so other teams get a chance to win the A Championship.

I'm not bashing Blake. I simply asked the question "why don't they move up to AA"? If it about the wins, as suggested, they already have the wins vs AA teams. Their schedule shows, with the exception of a few hiccups vs EP, Lakeville S, and Centennial, that they can compete at a high level at AA. Why not take on a new challenge? Is there a fear that they might lose some prospective student athletes (at $27,925 / year) to other private schools if their bid for a spot in the state tournament is diminished slightly at AA?
I'm sure that Blake is one of the most challenging academic high schools in the state. I'd bet they don't hold their students back in the classroom if they're ready to move to the next level. So in a sport that the school excels at, why do stay at A when it appears it's time to take on a new challenge?

[Bulldog3489]

Good to see the Strib finally question Blake for playing down. No quote from the Blake coach or administration.

[Racki2016]

All private schools should be AA and all should be in the same section, this would eliminate all the player movement and get it back to hometown high school hockey. Would be much more enjoyable for everyone.

[Nevertoomuchhockey]

Good to see the Strib finally question Blake for playing down. No quote from the Blake coach or administration.

Can you link that here?

[Bulldog3489]

It's on the hub. The Pioneer Press also has an article:

http://www.twincities.com/prep/ci_27553 ... source=pkg

[D6 Girls Fan]

Maybe the answer is to not allow teams to play up at all. If you have a small school (Blake, Hill, Roseau, BSM, Breck) you play A. If you form a large co-op (Dodge County) you play AA.

As someone pointed out, there's no shame in winning a title, be it A or AA. You could make the argument that Blake is as good as any of those AA teams this year, you can't say their title would be less prestigious than winning the AA.

That way the only thing people sweat is Private/Public. And if you really want to go there, create a 3rd class (Private) which could feature some pretty good hockey. This year, if the champs were Edina/Tonka, Roseau/TRF and Blake/Hill, we'd probably all agree that these are all deserving winners. We don't play down to one state champ anymore anyway.

I actually think this is a pretty good solution.

[sinbin]

I don't know if Wisconsin still does this, but in my day, they had separate tournaments for public and private for all sports. Multiple public classes for larger sports like football and basketball. It seemed to work well.

[hockeywild7]

What is the reasoning for having different classes? Classes are based on population of students. The problem with private schools is their not "community" based and draw from a wide area. Privates don't typically have a large base of students but they draw the higher level players from the various communities around them. They are not limited to what other schools are as far as student populations. It's not an equal playing field, especially at the small school level. The high school league should pull up their pants and make all privates play up to the AA level. 9 of last 13 class A titles are to private schools. The best idea in my opinion would be to put all the privates in their own section. If you add Breck and Blake I believe there would be a total of 7 privates in AA

[blondegirlsdad]

There are more than 7 private schools.

just off the top of my head:

BSM
Hill-Murray
Blake
Breck
Cretin
Holy Family
Holy Angels
Minnehaha United
St. Paul United
Totino

..and that's before leaving the metro.

And I'm liking giving them their own class, and naming one a State Champion, like in A and AA - so there would be 3 state champions

[Rocketwrister]

There are more than 7 private schools.

just off the top of my head:

BSM
Hill-Murray
Blake
Breck
Cretin
Holy Family
Holy Angels
Minnehaha United
St. Paul United
Totino
**Duluth Marshall

..and that's before leaving the metro.

And I'm liking giving them their own class, and naming one a State Champion, like in A and AA - so there would be 3 state champions

[MNHockeyFan]

There are more than 7 private schools.

just off the top of my head:

BSM
Hill-Murray
Blake
Breck
Cretin
Holy Family
Holy Angels
Minnehaha United
St. Paul United
Totino
**Duluth Marshall
*** Rochester Lourdes

..and that's before leaving the metro.

And I'm liking giving them their own class, and naming one a State Champion, like in A and AA - so there would be 3 state champions

[nu2hockey]

Add

Blaine
Faribault
Mankato East
New Ulm
River Lakes
Robbinsdale Arm
Windom
Maple Grove

These schools have private schools co-ops

[NotMuchToSay]

I would be curious to find out how many of those private school students actually play on those public high school girls hockey teams...

[MNHockeyFan]

I would be curious to find out how many of those private school students actually play on those public high school girls hockey teams...

No doubt it varies quite a bit each year.

[Sparlimb]

Sorry to interrupt all the private school b*tching, but there was some great hockey today.

I had no idea who Natalie Snodgrass was when I started the Eastview HM game, but it didn't take long. Man is she fast. Unfortunately for Eastview, the top end talent stopped right about there. HM had a pretty easy time of it although it was a small 2-0 lead with less than a minute in the 2nd period. Late 2nd period goal and a early 3rd period goal made the rest of the 3rd academic. Two more years of Snodgrass will be fun to see.

And boy did Buffalo give a game to Edina. The Buffalo goalie stood on her head the entire game and Edina had to scratch and claw their way to victory. When Buffalo took their brief lead in the 3rd period, the entire rink (all 2000 of us) held their breath as it looked like it just could happen. Credit Edina with finding a way to win against a hot goalie. Buffalo had a few other great chances to score in the 3rd, but couldn't get it done.

Hoping the Blaine v Lakeville game tonight can be just as exciting...

[MNHockeyFan]

I had no idea who Natalie Snodgrass was when I started the Eastview HM game, but it didn't take long. Man is she fast.

Her speed was very obvious on the internet stream as well. At the beginning the game it caught H-M's defense off-guard a few times, but they quickly adjusted and paid extra attention to where she was on the ice at all times. But she's obviously a special talent and I'm a little surprised that she hasn't announced a college commitment as yet, at least that I've seen. Sure wouldn't mind seeing her wearing Maroon & Gold in three years...

[LZ94]

I had no idea who Natalie Snodgrass was when I started the Eastview HM game, but it didn't take long. Man is she fast.

Her speed was very obvious on the internet stream as well. At the beginning the game it caught H-M's defense off-guard a few times, but they quickly adjusted and paid extra attention to where she was on the ice at all times. But she's obviously a special talent and I'm a little surprised that she hasn't announced a college commitment as yet, at least that I've seen. Sure wouldn't mind seeing her wearing Maroon & Gold in three years...

With credit to Randy Moss, I heard "she plays when she wants to play".

[RailingWizardofOZ]

I had no idea who Natalie Snodgrass was when I started the Eastview HM game, but it didn't take long. Man is she fast.

Her speed was very obvious on the internet stream as well. At the beginning the game it caught H-M's defense off-guard a few times, but they quickly adjusted and paid extra attention to where she was on the ice at all times. But she's obviously a special talent and I'm a little surprised that she hasn't announced a college commitment as yet, at least that I've seen. Sure wouldn't mind seeing her wearing Maroon & Gold in three years...

With credit to Randy Moss, I heard "she plays when she wants to play".

I love when people can't pass up the opportunity to show how much they know.

[sinbin]

Her speed was very obvious on the internet stream as well. At the beginning the game it caught H-M's defense off-guard a few times, but they quickly adjusted and paid extra attention to where she was on the ice at all times. But she's obviously a special talent and I'm a little surprised that she hasn't announced a college commitment as yet, at least that I've seen. Sure wouldn't mind seeing her wearing Maroon & Gold in three years...

With credit to Randy Moss, I heard "she plays when she wants to play".

I love when people can't pass up the opportunity to show how much they know.

Or to quote the renowned wordsmith, Randy Moss.

[imnotwearingacup]

Combined scores for winning vs losing teams in the first round was 39-5. Looks like you can fire up that discussion for section realignment again.

[LZ94]

With credit to Randy Moss, I heard "she plays when she wants to play".

I love when people can't pass up the opportunity to show how much they know.

Or to quote the renowned wordsmith, Randy Moss.

I believe what you were looking for was: "Superbowl Homeboy."

[esox101]

This seems to be an annual discussion, understandably so.

The challenge is that there's really no one size fits all answer.

It's fairly easy to point to a school like Blake and say that despite their enrollment size (518 by the MSHSL site) their performance argues for them being in AA. Fair argument to make. You could probably make the same case for St Paul United, just as an example. There are examples of just this - Hill being the obvious one.

You can also point to some of the larger Co-ops like Dodge County and say they belong in AA because of their enrollment numbers. Again, fairly easy argument to make, right?

On the other hand, there are teams like the St Paul Blades where the 'big coops should be in AA' argument totally falls apart. One of their schools alone (St Paul Central, @ 1700 students) would put them in AA based purely on their enrollment numbers. But, there are exactly two girls hockey players from Central on the Blades. This season, they had just enough players to field a JV team, although at times one goalie had to play both games. Performance wise, they can't begin to compete with A schools like Blake or SPU, to say nothing of quality AA programs like HM, Minnetonka or Eden Prairie.

Part of it is demographics, but it's also the result of a lot of youth hockey girls going to area private schools like Cretin, St Paul Academy, Minnehaha, etc. If all those players played for their neighborhood public schools you'd likely not HAVE a coop St Paul team at all, but rather multiple public school teams from St Paul...but they don't. That isn't even an argument for or against private schools by the way - it's just a fact. Kids go where they go for all kinds of reasons, not many of them hockey-related.

So what's fair there? Put the Blades in AA because their enrollment numbers say that's where they belong? If they played an all AA schedule, they'd never get close to winning a game. (They win few enough as it is)

Or, do they belong in A, where they are now, because competitively that's what's appropriate?

And if that's the case, based on performance, and in spite of enrollment, is it fair to apply the same logic in the other direction and say Blake has no business being in class A when it regularly beats AA teams like Cretin, soundly beats good A teams like Red Wing and South St Paul, and absolutely clobbers middle of the road A teams and wins a 1st round in the state tourney by a score of 9-0?

I don't know what the solution is but I doubt there is an easy one. Maybe it's something where class designation is evaluated every 3 or 4 years, and programs are re-slotted based on their performance. Bottom line is 9-0 isn't fun for anyone, whether it's in the playoffs or regular season. The fewer games we have like that, the better for everyone.

[U10Father]

I hadn't considered it before, but I now like the idea advanced here earlier -

3 classes

A & AA based solely on HS size, no consideration to traditional quality of hockey program at the school
And privates - again with no consideration of quality of hockey program

And no playing up or down. You are what you are. If you aren't great, then schedule other teams at your level during the season trying to get better. Then at season's end you could either continue withe the geographic regions or you could re-seed at 16 teams. You'd never have arguments like this again, which is fine.

[Gov78]

Combined scores for winning vs losing teams in the first round was 39-5. Looks like you can fire up that discussion for section realignment again.

Or stop seeding the section winners as that's what produced those number as you almost guarantee the strongest vs the weakest in round 1.

[Nevertoomuchhockey]

As someone pointed out, there's no shame in winning a title, be it A or AA. You could make the argument that Blake is as good as any of those AA teams this year, you can't say their title would be less prestigious than winning the AA.

That's the point. People are overwhelmingly saying that an A title is less prestigious than an AA title. That's one of the main reasons why schools like Blake (girls) and Hermantown (boys) are getting hassled to move up. And why programs that move down get so much blowback from their hockey parents and community.
I don't necessarily agreed it's "less prestigious" to win an an A title. Unless it's generally recognized your team could legitimately have a chance at an AA title.