MN Hockey participation rule change

[Better Dead Than Red]

While the tier 1 resolution seemed to have received the most press, it also appears MN Hockey made a rather drastic change in the participation rule. According to the minutes (http://assets.ngin.com/attachments/docu ... utes-1.pdf), they have stricken all the language that allows a player to move buildings after completing a grade level and remain eligible to play at the highest level.

For example, if a player is enrolled in an elementary school other than where the player lives, the first year of enrollment that player cannot play at the highest level of play offered for one year (usually not a big deal in mites). After the player finishes elementary school, they have to get another waiver because they are “changing schools” (it usually requires paperwork with the school district as well) even if they are moving to the middle school that all the students from that elementary school attend based on residence. And the same thing happens at middle school going to high school.

It appears now that all that language is removed, a player wishing to continue open enrolling would be subject to being ineligible to play at the highest level whenever they change schools - for example, 5th to 6th grade and then again from 8th to 9th grade even if they’ve never played in their association of residence.

Interesting that the Minnesota High School League rules don’t include a provision that penalizes you for choosing your high school in 9th grade, but Minnesota Hockey now will. So a player open enrolling could play varsity as a 9th grader, or would have to play Bantam B (or A if there is a AA team).

There is a provision that allows a player to submit special circumstances to the district director, but that seems to open the door to a lot of…politics.

[Froggy Richards]

While the tier 1 resolution seemed to have received the most press, it also appears MN Hockey made a rather drastic change in the participation rule. According to the minutes (http://assets.ngin.com/attachments/docu ... r_Meeting_Minutes-1.pdf), they have stricken all the language that allows a player to move buildings after completing a grade level and remain eligible to play at the highest level.

For example, if a player is enrolled in an elementary school other than where the player lives, the first year of enrollment that player cannot play at the highest level of play offered for one year (usually not a big deal in mites). After the player finishes elementary school, they have to get another waiver because they are “changing schools” (it usually requires paperwork with the school district as well) even if they are moving to the middle school that all the students from that elementary school attend based on residence. And the same thing happens at middle school going to high school.

It appears now that all that language is removed, a player wishing to continue open enrolling would be subject to being ineligible to play at the highest level whenever they change schools - for example, 5th to 6th grade and then again from 8th to 9th grade even if they’ve never played in their association of residence.

Interesting that the Minnesota High School League rules don’t include a provision that penalizes you for choosing your high school in 9th grade, but Minnesota Hockey now will. So a player open enrolling could play varsity as a 9th grader, or would have to play Bantam B (or A if there is a AA team).

There is a provision that allows a player to submit special circumstances to the district director, but that seems to open the door to a lot of…politics.

This is interesting. I don't know if you are correct on the first part though. It could be an issue where the language is unclear.

5. Changing Schools

A. Players who change schools without a related change of residence shall elect one of the following:

1. Have full eligibility to compete at any division in their Association of Residence; or

2. Be eligible at all except the highest division in their new Association of School Attendance for one (1) year beginning with the first day of attendance in the new school.

I think what they mean in line A is changing School Districts, not actual schools within your current District that you're already open-enrolled to. I think the key word is "New" in line 2. If you open enroll in elementary, then later move to Middle School within the same District, there is no "new" Association of school attendance. (Unless of course the Middle School falls within the boundaries of a different Association, but I'm sure that's rare.) It's the same Association that you have already served your one-year sentence in. So I don't think what you're saying is correct there. But I agree that it's unclear based on the wording. Maybe Elliott can clear this up and tell us what it actually means.

What is very clear, however, is that under the new provision you cannot open enroll in a new School District in 9th grade and play at the highest Bantam level at the new district. That's an interesting change. Because you still have to open enroll in 9th grade if you want to play Varsity in 10th grade, but you would have to play your 9th grade Bantam year back home if you wanted to play at the highest level. I'm glad they are tightening up this open enrollment stuff though. I hope they keep going until it's not worth it anymore. If it's that important, then people should move there. Go to school wherever you want, nobody will argue with a choice based on Education. But if Minnesota Hockey and USA Hockey actually want to grow the game like they claim, then you should have to play where you live. It's too easy to switch and some Associations will die on the vine while the top players head to the ones with the eventual cakewalk to the State Tourney. This probably isn't a very big deal though, as a kid could still play JV or Varsity in 9th grade at the new school. And most parents are moving their kids in Mites now, so they can get around any participation rules. Then when they do get to High School they can also say they've been there since Mites.

[Better Dead Than Red]

I see what you are saying. However, under the current rule, when a player completes elementary school, or middle school, Minnesota Hockey requires a waiver because of the school change even if that player is staying in the same association and nothing in new rule appears to change that.

At the very least, it seems to leave it up to the whim of the district directors...

[Froggy Richards]

I see what you are saying. However, under the current rule, when a player completes elementary school, or middle school, Minnesota Hockey requires a waiver because of the school change even if that player is staying in the same association and nothing in new rule appears to change that.

At the very least, it seems to leave it up to the whim of the district directors...

Are you sure about that? I've never heard that before. If that is truly the case, then kids would be ineligible for the highest level their first year of PeeWees, and again for 2nd year of Bantams. Elliott, help us out here!

[Better Dead Than Red]

I see what you are saying. However, under the current rule, when a player completes elementary school, or middle school, Minnesota Hockey requires a waiver because of the school change even if that player is staying in the same association and nothing in new rule appears to change that.

At the very least, it seems to leave it up to the whim of the district directors...

Are you sure about that? I've never heard that before. If that is truly the case, then kids would be ineligible for the highest level their first year of PeeWees, and again for 2nd year of Bantams. Elliott, help us out here!

I'm 100% positive that a Minnesota Hockey waiver is required when you complete the school, even if you are staying in the same association the whole time.

They aren't ineligible now because of the language they just repealed.

That's why I think, at least in effect, they've pretty much ended playing in your school attendance association if you don't live there.

This is from the summary that tries to explain the current rule on the Minnesota Hockey website:

2) If a player wants to participate where he/she goes to school (Association of School Participation) rather than where they live, the Association of Residence is required to waive the player (neither the releasing nor receiving associations can refuse the waiver). It is a semi-permanent waiver, effective as long as the player continues to attend the school. If the player stops attending that school, he/she reverts back to their Association of Residence for participation or waiver.

3) There are some natural "break points" where students change schools – typically the transition from elementary to middle or junior-high school, and from middle or junior-high school to high school. Players who change schools at these "break points" have full eligibility to compete in their Association of School Attendance at any division.

http://www.minnesotahockey.org/news_art ... r_id=80470

They just eliminated #3, so when a player stops attending the school (elementary or middle), they go back to Association of Residence.

[observer]

Who's most affected? Sibley Bantams? I don't know how many STA students they have on their teams this season.

[Froggy Richards]

I see what you are saying. However, under the current rule, when a player completes elementary school, or middle school, Minnesota Hockey requires a waiver because of the school change even if that player is staying in the same association and nothing in new rule appears to change that.

At the very least, it seems to leave it up to the whim of the district directors...

Are you sure about that? I've never heard that before. If that is truly the case, then kids would be ineligible for the highest level their first year of PeeWees, and again for 2nd year of Bantams. Elliott, help us out here!

I'm 100% positive that a Minnesota Hockey waiver is required when you complete the school, even if you are staying in the same association the whole time.

They aren't ineligible now because of the language they just repealed.

That's why I think, at least in effect, they've pretty much ended playing in your school attendance association if you don't live there.

This is from the summary that tries to explain the current rule on the Minnesota Hockey website:

2) If a player wants to participate where he/she goes to school (Association of School Participation) rather than where they live, the Association of Residence is required to waive the player (neither the releasing nor receiving associations can refuse the waiver). It is a semi-permanent waiver, effective as long as the player continues to attend the school. If the player stops attending that school, he/she reverts back to their Association of Residence for participation or waiver.

3) There are some natural "break points" where students change schools – typically the transition from elementary to middle or junior-high school, and from middle or junior-high school to high school. Players who change schools at these "break points" have full eligibility to compete in their Association of School Attendance at any division.

http://www.minnesotahockey.org/news_art ... r_id=80470

They just eliminated #3, so when a player stops attending the school (elementary or middle), they go back to Association of Residence.

WOW! If you are correct, this could really be a game changer. I would still like to hear it from Elliott though, as he was actually at the meeting according to the minutes.

[old goalie85]

He's on his way south !!

[elliott70]

I see what you are saying. However, under the current rule, when a player completes elementary school, or middle school, Minnesota Hockey requires a waiver because of the school change even if that player is staying in the same association and nothing in new rule appears to change that.

At the very least, it seems to leave it up to the whim of the district directors...

Are you sure about that? I've never heard that before. If that is truly the case, then kids would be ineligible for the highest level their first year of PeeWees, and again for 2nd year of Bantams. Elliott, help us out here!

The rule change applies to those kids that want to change school districts.
A 6th grader in Hopkins open enrolls in Edina. He is eligible to play in Edina but not on their AA team. The old rule said that he would be eligible for any level because of a change from elementary to middle school. That will no longer be the case.

Part of the problem is with 9th graders playing bantam. Same kid going from Hopkins to Edina high school would have to stay with Hopkins if he wants to play AA. At Edina he would play A.

[elliott70]

This had been (still is to me) a complicated issue.

Kid plays hockey for Hopkins from day one because he lives in Hopkins.
No problem - just plays at whatever level.

Same kid wants to go t school in Edina. Open enrolls to Edina and now wants to play in Edina. First year in Edina he cannot play at the highest level.
Second year he is good to go.

No waivers needed (it is automatic).

Hopkins kid goes from elementary school to middle school in Hopkins, nothing needed. He lives in Hopkins, he plays for Hopkins.

[elliott70]

He's on his way south !!

Not till Wednesday.
I have to work.

[Froggy Richards]

I see what you are saying. However, under the current rule, when a player completes elementary school, or middle school, Minnesota Hockey requires a waiver because of the school change even if that player is staying in the same association and nothing in new rule appears to change that.

At the very least, it seems to leave it up to the whim of the district directors...

Are you sure about that? I've never heard that before. If that is truly the case, then kids would be ineligible for the highest level their first year of PeeWees, and again for 2nd year of Bantams. Elliott, help us out here!

The rule change applies to those kids that want to change school districts.
A 6th grader in Hopkins open enrolls in Edina. He is eligible to play in Edina but not on their AA team. The old rule said that he would be eligible for any level because of a change from elementary to middle school. That will no longer be the case.

Part of the problem is with 9th graders playing bantam. Same kid going from Hopkins to Edina high school would have to stay with Hopkins if he wants to play AA. At Edina he would play A.

That's what I thought, it's still just a one-time deal. Once you complete your one-year sentence you are eligible for the highest level for the rest of your career at the new school district. If you open-enroll in Mites you will never be ineligible for the highest level if you stay in that school district through High School. Better Dead's interpretation was that if you open-enrolled in Mites, you would then need a waiver when you completed Elementary school and again when you completed Middle School. I knew that had to be too good to be true.

[Froggy Richards]

I see what you are saying. However, under the current rule, when a player completes elementary school, or middle school, Minnesota Hockey requires a waiver because of the school change even if that player is staying in the same association and nothing in new rule appears to change that.

At the very least, it seems to leave it up to the whim of the district directors...

Are you sure about that? I've never heard that before. If that is truly the case, then kids would be ineligible for the highest level their first year of PeeWees, and again for 2nd year of Bantams. Elliott, help us out here!

The rule change applies to those kids that want to change school districts.
A 6th grader in Hopkins open enrolls in Edina. He is eligible to play in Edina but not on their AA team. The old rule said that he would be eligible for any level because of a change from elementary to middle school. That will no longer be the case.

Part of the problem is with 9th graders playing bantam. Same kid going from Hopkins to Edina high school would have to stay with Hopkins if he wants to play AA. At Edina he would play A.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but under this scenario the President of the Hopkins Hockey Association can waive the one year ineligibility requirement if he desires, correct? Meaning that he can allow the kid to play AA in Edina if he chooses?

[elliott70]

Are you sure about that? I've never heard that before. If that is truly the case, then kids would be ineligible for the highest level their first year of PeeWees, and again for 2nd year of Bantams. Elliott, help us out here!

The rule change applies to those kids that want to change school districts.
A 6th grader in Hopkins open enrolls in Edina. He is eligible to play in Edina but not on their AA team. The old rule said that he would be eligible for any level because of a change from elementary to middle school. That will no longer be the case.

Part of the problem is with 9th graders playing bantam. Same kid going from Hopkins to Edina high school would have to stay with Hopkins if he wants to play AA. At Edina he would play A.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but under this scenario the President of the Hopkins Hockey Association can waive the one year ineligibility requirement if he desires, correct? Meaning that he can allow the kid to play AA in Edina if he chooses?

The waiver to the highest level exemption would be allowed with both assn. and the directors giving their approval also.

[Better Dead Than Red]

Under the current rule, our district director and associations have required a player open enrolling to get a new waiver after elementary and middle schools to stay in the same association the entire time (to use your example, the waiver for the Hopkins player remains in effect until elementary school is completed. When they open enroll in Edina middle school, they need a new waiver in Edina but are not subject to the penalty because they have completed the grades offered.) They have specifically referenced the language in the current rule as the justification for getting a new waiver. It's not my interpretation it's what we have been repeatedly told by our Minnesota Hockey officials.

[elliott70]

Under the current rule, our district director and associations have required a player open enrolling to get a new waiver after elementary and middle schools to stay in the same association the entire time (to use your example, the waiver for the Hopkins player remains in effect until elementary school is completed. When they open enroll in Edina middle school, they need a new waiver in Edina but are not subject to the penalty because they have completed the grades offered.) They have specifically referenced the language in the current rule as the justification for getting a new waiver. It's not my interpretation it's what we have been repeatedly told by our Minnesota Hockey officials.

The waiver is and has been automatic to play in the association of where a player attends school. The request cannot be denied. The question always has been at what level may the player participate. Once they have sat a year and they have continued with the same association they do not sit again.

[elliott70]

Under the current rule, our district director and associations have required a player open enrolling to get a new waiver after elementary and middle schools to stay in the same association the entire time (to use your example, the waiver for the Hopkins player remains in effect until elementary school is completed. When they open enroll in Edina middle school, they need a new waiver in Edina but are not subject to the penalty because they have completed the grades offered.) They have specifically referenced the language in the current rule as the justification for getting a new waiver. It's not my interpretation it's what we have been repeatedly told by our Minnesota Hockey officials.

The wavier form is just a formality.

[Better Dead Than Red]

Under the current rule, our district director and associations have required a player open enrolling to get a new waiver after elementary and middle schools to stay in the same association the entire time (to use your example, the waiver for the Hopkins player remains in effect until elementary school is completed. When they open enroll in Edina middle school, they need a new waiver in Edina but are not subject to the penalty because they have completed the grades offered.) They have specifically referenced the language in the current rule as the justification for getting a new waiver. It's not my interpretation it's what we have been repeatedly told by our Minnesota Hockey officials.

The waiver is and has been automatic to play in the association of where a player attends school. The request cannot be denied. The question always has been at what level may the player participate. Once they have sat a year and they have continued with the same association they do not sit again.

Elliott - thank you for trying to clarify. The fact that you have a slightly different interpretation of how the rules operate, however, gets back to one of my original points that this change will also lead to a player's situation being determined by the individual directors, rather than a uniform rule.

Like you pointed out, the school attendance waiver is basically a formality because neither the association of residence or school attendance can deny it.

The question will be what happens now at these "break points" that have been eliminated with the rule change.

The rule - both the current and new version- reads that the waiver is for the school the player attends. Not for the school district. Not for the association of the school. It is a valid waiver while the player attends that school. In fact, on the waiver form you have to identify the school your player is attending. Not the district. Not the association.

As the page on Minnesota Hockey's website explains, "It is a semi-permanent waiver, effective as long as the player continues to attend the school. If the player stops attending that school, he/she reverts back to their Association of Residence for participation or waiver." It doesn't say school district, nor does it say association of that school, it says that school.

In our hockey district, our director has required a new waiver whenever my kids have changed schools - elementary or middle. My kids attend schools in the same school district where we live, just a different high school attendance zone, and thus a different association. The rule has been uniformally applied to others who have enrolled their kids outside the school district with a different hockey association (obviously).

It has been explained to us, repeatedly, that the only reason our kids have not been subject to the being ineligible for the highest level of play, is because the rule has specified that because our kids have completed the grades offered at that school (elementary or middle) they remain eligible to play at the highest level when they enroll in their "new school" (middle or high school). Staying in the same school district and the same association the entire time has nothing to do with it because the rule doesn't address that - it applied regardless of whether you are changing school districts and/or associations.

That language has been removed, so now what? Instead of having a uniform rule, it will depend on the president's involved, or the individual director's interpretation.

[Froggy Richards]

Under the current rule, our district director and associations have required a player open enrolling to get a new waiver after elementary and middle schools to stay in the same association the entire time (to use your example, the waiver for the Hopkins player remains in effect until elementary school is completed. When they open enroll in Edina middle school, they need a new waiver in Edina but are not subject to the penalty because they have completed the grades offered.) They have specifically referenced the language in the current rule as the justification for getting a new waiver. It's not my interpretation it's what we have been repeatedly told by our Minnesota Hockey officials.

The waiver is and has been automatic to play in the association of where a player attends school. The request cannot be denied. The question always has been at what level may the player participate. Once they have sat a year and they have continued with the same association they do not sit again.

Elliott - thank you for trying to clarify. The fact that you have a slightly different interpretation of how the rules operate, however, gets back to one of my original points that this change will also lead to a player's situation being determined by the individual directors, rather than a uniform rule.

Like you pointed out, the school attendance waiver is basically a formality because neither the association of residence or school attendance can deny it.

The question will be what happens now at these "break points" that have been eliminated with the rule change.

The rule - both the current and new version- reads that the waiver is for the school the player attends. Not for the school district. Not for the association of the school. It is a valid waiver while the player attends that school. In fact, on the waiver form you have to identify the school your player is attending. Not the district. Not the association.

As the page on Minnesota Hockey's website explains, "It is a semi-permanent waiver, effective as long as the player continues to attend the school. If the player stops attending that school, he/she reverts back to their Association of Residence for participation or waiver." It doesn't say school district, nor does it say association of that school, it says that school.

In our hockey district, our director has required a new waiver whenever my kids have changed schools - elementary or middle. My kids attend schools in the same school district where we live, just a different high school attendance zone, and thus a different association. The rule has been uniformally applied to others who have enrolled their kids outside the school district with a different hockey association (obviously).

It has been explained to us, repeatedly, that the only reason our kids have not been subject to the being ineligible for the highest level of play, is because the rule has specified that because our kids have completed the grades offered at that school (elementary or middle) they remain eligible to play at the highest level when they enroll in their "new school" (middle or high school). Staying in the same school district and the same association the entire time has nothing to do with it because the rule doesn't address that - it applied regardless of whether you are changing school districts and/or associations.

That language has been removed, so now what? Instead of having a uniform rule, it will depend on the president's involved, or the individual director's interpretation.

I agree that the way the rule is written you can interpret it this way. But my guess is that it's a problem with the language and that maybe your District Director misinterpreted it in the past. I think School means School District, even though it doesn't say that. I can't imagine that MN Hockey's intention is to have a kid be ineligible for the highest level at each of these break points. I'm sure it's a one time deal.

Since this would affect your kids I would send an e-mail to Bob Halverson, Rules Committee Chair and probably one to Dave Margenau, President and your District Director as well. You can send them e-mails from the following page:

http://www.minnesotahockey.org/page/show/86521-board

Please let us know what you find out. Thanks.

[Hockeyfan2000]

How would the rule apply to the following fact situation?

Player has been opened enrolled into a neighboring school district since 1st grade. Player will be going into 9th grade next year in the same school district. Player has always played for Association of Residence. Player would like to switch to Association of Attendance for his last year of Bantam. Can he play for the top team?

[Froggy Richards]

How would the rule apply to the following fact situation?

Player has been opened enrolled into a neighboring school district since 1st grade. Player will be going into 9th grade next year in the same school district. Player has always played for Association of Residence. Player would like to switch to Association of Attendance for his last year of Bantam. Can he play for the top team?

No. He could have prior to this rule change since he completed all grades at his Previous School, (Middle School). But with the change he no longer can. Unless of course, both the President of his Association of Residence and the District Director allow him to.

[Hockeyfan2000]

Froggy Richards - Do I have the correct rule:

Be eligible at all but except the highest division in their new Association of School Attendance for one (1) year beginning with the first day of attendance in the new school.

If you are correct and school means school district. It states not eligible for one year beginning with the first day of attendance in the new school. Since he has has been attending the same school district for many years, he long ago completed one year.

Am I missing something?

[Froggy Richards]

Froggy Richards - Do I have the correct rule:

Be eligible at all but except the highest division in their new Association of School Attendance for one (1) year beginning with the first day of attendance in the new school.

If you are correct and school means school district. It states not eligible for one year beginning with the first day of attendance in the new school. Since he has has been attending the same school district for many years, he long ago completed one year.

Am I missing something?

I believe that since he never played in the Association of School Residence the clock has never started ticking for him. If you look at the top of the rule it says the player shall elect ONE of the following:

1. Have full eligibility to compete at any Division in their Association of Residence, or:

2. Be eligible at all except the Highest Division of their new Association of School Attendance for (1) year beginning with the first day of attendance in the new school.

The player in this scenario chose option 1. Therefore, the way I read it, option 2 became irrelevant for him. I believe that once he does choose to play in the Association of School Attendance, then the one year clock begins.

But then again, that's just the way I read it and I could be wrong. The only way to know this for sure is to ask your District Director.

[The Exiled One]

Froggy Richards - Do I have the correct rule:

Be eligible at all but except the highest division in their new Association of School Attendance for one (1) year beginning with the first day of attendance in the new school.

If you are correct and school means school district. It states not eligible for one year beginning with the first day of attendance in the new school. Since he has has been attending the same school district for many years, he long ago completed one year.

Am I missing something?

So, hypothetically, John Doe lives in White Bear Lake but has been going to school in Edina since 1st grade. (I know they're not neighboring, but that's an irrelevant fact anyway.) John has been playing for the WBLHA through his first year of bantams. Now that he's a 9th grader at Edina HS, he'd like to play Edina Bantam AA.

The rule as written is a bit tricky, but the intent is clear: They want him to establish himself in his "new" school's association for a season before he's allowed to play at the highest level. If that isn't the intent, there is still room for abuse.

For example, let's switch out WBL with St. Louis Park in my example. If this kid is good enough for Edina Bantam AA as a second year player, then he's probably good enough for St. Louis Park Bantam AA as a first year player. Starting with squirts, he could simply switch back and forth between St. Louis Park and Edina every other year, ensuring that he's always on the highest level of team for his age (SLP Squirt A, Edina Squirt A, SLP PW A, Edina PWA, etc). Clearly, the intent is to prevent such switching.

I agree with Froggy Richards that the "clock hasn't started ticking" on his transfer season. Edina Bantam A is his highest hypothetical 9th grade level.

[moosepaw]

Player lives in city of association A, says they are going to school in city association B, ask for waiver doesn't get it , goes to district director they tell them what to do. They switch there address on license and paycheck. Never move, never switch schools still lives in city A.


True story.



None of the rule changes matter, district director hold all the power you can play wherever you want. Period. If you talk to the higher ups in Minnedota Hockey they run from this discussion and refer back to district director.