Tier 1 in MN

JSR · Post by **JSR** » Wed May 13, 2015 1:53 pm

elliott70 wrote:
JSR wrote:
elliott70 wrote:With all the questions about the MH tier 1 program not being finalized is why I voted against it in January.

It may be a good concept, but all the answers (all the possible questions) were not addressed.
Just curious on why you think that is. I mean Tier 1 nationally has been around forever. Before and After are a major part of the landscape. MN has Schattuck and they even had a pilot program of Tier 1 before and after this past season with a few teams. Why would all the questions (and answers) still not be known?
The questions and answers revolving around how this program will be run, how it will affect the other programs that were going to be run or are being run....
Perhaps you should read everything again.

That's my point. Why introduce, vote on, and approve something when this stuff should have been known before it got to that point

JSR · Post by **JSR** » Wed May 13, 2015 2:02 pm

Lace'emUp wrote:
SCBlueLiner wrote:Seems clear to me the Revolution is done, at Tier 1 anyways.
Along with that, it's quoted:
"Minnesota Hockey has engaged in discussions with the leadership of the Upper Midwest Elite League, the Prep Development League and the Girls Premier Prep League in which the Minnesota Hockey Tier 1 teams will participate. It is the intent that those Leagues would be responsible for Tier 1 league operations at the Girls 19U, Youth 18U, Girls 16U and Youth 16U levels."

On the girls side of things, the Elite League is where the top end talent plays in the fall. Tryouts are invite only. The Premier Prep League has good talent, but is not the same level as the Elite League. Tryouts are "open" for Premier Prep. That being the case, why is MNH "engaged" with both leagues? Is it to be fair to the folks who administer (own) each league, in the sense that both could become more equal competition for each other? Neither league has posted any Tier 1 information news on their websites.

Lastly, as mentioned, this does not resolve the status of the Revolution, Magicians, Blades, or whomever else wants to be thrown into the mix. If the Revolution and others are on the outside looking in, what are the chances they pack-up their bags and move further east into Hudson? See page 46 and 47 from the WI Guide/Rule Book:

http://www.wahahockey.com/scripts/2014%20Guidebook.pdf

"WAHA will accept approved players from another state who wish to play in Wisconsin because the state in which they reside does not offer a program similar to those offered in Wisconsin."

Though Tier 1 is offered in MN, it is not offered the whole season. Thus, couldn't the Revolution open up across the border and take on a flood of waivers from MN kids who want the full Tier 1 experience? MN would have to grant the waiver to someone first, which I'm sure will not happen. Don't need the waiver though if families "move" into a Hudson apartment.

You missed this part from the WAHA Guide Book though:

C. LIMITATION
1. There will be no more than three (3) Full Season Tier 1
Organizations, in the State of Wisconsin. Note: This
does not mean that there will be three at all times.
WAHA reserves the right to sanction only one or two or
even none in any given season.

Basically moving across the border to Hudson is not an option either as the Jr Ads, Caps and Jr Gamblers already "own" the three full season slots WAHA doles out.

BluehawkHockey · Post by **BluehawkHockey** » Wed May 13, 2015 2:46 pm

Nevertoomuchhockey wrote:That makes sense. But what about what happened in Duluth? That wasn't provisional. And now MN Hockey backtracking on that precedent?

So Rev will play only outstate?
And what about the people complaining about BE players having unfair advantage in competing in HP and similar programs because of their training model?

More questions than answers.

I think the way MN Hockey granted the provisional Tier 1 for a year was to guarantee they didn't make that "mistake" again. With them basically running most of the Tier 1 programs allowed in the state, they can say their are Tier 1 options and they don't need to grant any other groups that status. I also think they may be why they aren't going to allow B/E to take over the Thoroughbreds. So now Tier 1 will be either Shattuck or MN Hockey based programs.

As for the people complaining about B/E players having an unfair advantage in HP. If B/E can't really have a hockey team unless it plays in MSHSL, those players won't really have an advantage because the school may not have many players enrolled. And I don't know that they did anyway. At least at HP 15, they could have been at a disadvantage with the Districts having control of the first rounds of tryouts. The Tier 1 players should have the same chance to make it and just because they have a different training model doesn't mean they will be better.

Nevertoomuchhockey · Post by **Nevertoomuchhockey** » Wed May 13, 2015 5:16 pm

BluehawkHockey wrote:
Nevertoomuchhockey wrote:That makes sense. But what about what happened in Duluth? That wasn't provisional. And now MN Hockey backtracking on that precedent?

So Rev will play only outstate?
And what about the people complaining about BE players having unfair advantage in competing in HP and similar programs because of their training model?

More questions than answers.
I think the way MN Hockey granted the provisional Tier 1 for a year was to guarantee they didn't make that "mistake" again. With them basically running most of the Tier 1 programs allowed in the state, they can say their are Tier 1 options and they don't need to grant any other groups that status. I also think they may be why they aren't going to allow B/E to take over the Thoroughbreds. So now Tier 1 will be either Shattuck or MN Hockey based programs.

As for the people complaining about B/E players having an unfair advantage in HP. If B/E can't really have a hockey team unless it plays in MSHSL, those players won't really have an advantage because the school may not have many players enrolled. And I don't know that they did anyway. At least at HP 15, they could have been at a disadvantage with the Districts having control of the first rounds of tryouts. The Tier 1 players should have the same chance to make it and just because they have a different training model doesn't mean they will be better.

All excellent points Bluehawk.

I honestly think MN Hockey said ok to provisional Tier 1 just to get out from under the disaster they helped create with Achiever in the MSHSL. What do you think BE (the school) and Revolution (the teams) do now?

Their fancy bus is all dressed up and no place to go?

BluehawkHockey · Post by **BluehawkHockey** » Thu May 14, 2015 8:41 am

Nevertoomuchhockey wrote:All excellent points Bluehawk.

I honestly think MN Hockey said ok to provisional Tier 1 just to get out from under the disaster they helped create with Achiever in the MSHSL. What do you think BE (the school) and Revolution (the teams) do now?

Their fancy bus is all dressed up and no place to go?

I think there are 4 options for the teams. 1. Sue MN Hockey/USA Hockey to get Tier 1 permission. Doubtful that it will happen. If it was going to happen, it would have happened already since school starts again in September. Not likely to succeed anyway.

2. Go back to the MSHSL. Can easily be done. But they will face more intense scrutiny by MSHSL and all their detractors. Likely to lose many of their players because they would need to move to become eligible for Varsity. I believe the MSHSL would consider them a "new" program and require all their athletes to follow rules to become eligible (be freshmen or change of address to a new district to be varsity eligible).

3. Become a hockey school that doesn't play games and just provides training. The problem with this, is there are no games and none of their athletes would be allowed to play on other MSHSL teams. MSHSL doesn't allow training with another group in season.

4. Fold the program.

I think in all but the return to MSHSL competition, the school closes. In concept, the school is a good idea and it is in the best location to draw students. But their lack of control and ability to follow MSHSL rules has ruined their best option. Playing in the MSHSL was their best option. Consider this. If they had not fallen afoul of the MSHSL rules, MN Hockey may not have decided to do their own thing with Tier 1. Maybe MN Hockey would have just allowed Tier 1 before and after. Then Revolution could have maybe played their teams in Tier 1 before and after. Maybe the best situation for them.

BluehawkHockey · Post by **BluehawkHockey** » Thu May 14, 2015 8:41 am

Nevertoomuchhockey wrote:All excellent points Bluehawk.

I honestly think MN Hockey said ok to provisional Tier 1 just to get out from under the disaster they helped create with Achiever in the MSHSL. What do you think BE (the school) and Revolution (the teams) do now?

Their fancy bus is all dressed up and no place to go?

I think there are 4 options for the teams. 1. Sue MN Hockey/USA Hockey to get Tier 1 permission. Doubtful that it will happen. If it was going to happen, it would have happened already since school starts again in September. Not likely to succeed anyway.

2. Go back to the MSHSL. Can easily be done. But they will face more intense scrutiny by MSHSL and all their detractors. Likely to lose many of their players because they would need to move to become eligible for Varsity. I believe the MSHSL would consider them a "new" program and require all their athletes to follow rules to become eligible (be freshmen or change of address to a new district to be varsity eligible).

3. Become a hockey school that doesn't play games and just provides training. The problem with this, is there are no games and none of their athletes would be allowed to play on other MSHSL teams. MSHSL doesn't allow training with another group in season.

4. Fold the program.

I think in all but the return to MSHSL competition, the school closes. In concept, the school is a good idea and it is in the best location to draw students. But their lack of control and ability to follow MSHSL rules has ruined their best option. Playing in the MSHSL was their best option. Consider this. If they had not fallen afoul of the MSHSL rules, MN Hockey may not have decided to do their own thing with Tier 1. Maybe MN Hockey would have just allowed Tier 1 before and after. Then Revolution could have maybe played their teams in Tier 1 before and after. Maybe the best situation for them.

Nevertoomuchhockey · Post by **Nevertoomuchhockey** » Thu May 14, 2015 11:07 am

Wow. What a clusterf***. I feel for the players who are in a no win situation. No way they can play MSHSL unless they almost entirely replace their rosters. Section 4 and most of the metro would be up in arms, I imagine. The BE faithful have been pretty quiet this year, but it would sure be interesting to know what the in-house Revolution party line is right now.

JSR · Post by **JSR** » Thu May 14, 2015 12:25 pm

Nevertoomuchhockey wrote:Wow. What a clusterf***. I feel for the players who are in a no win situation. No way they can play MSHSL unless they almost entirely replace their rosters. Section 4 and most of the metro would be up in arms, I imagine. The BE faithful have been pretty quiet this year, but it would sure be interesting to know what the in-house Revolution party line is right now.

Nevertoomuchhockey · Post by **Nevertoomuchhockey** » Thu May 14, 2015 1:14 pm

Is that you Craig Perry?
I kid I kid.

JSR · Post by **JSR** » Fri May 15, 2015 11:24 am

Nevertoomuchhockey wrote:Is that you Craig Perry?
I kid I kid.

I don't know who Craig Perry is, I just thought the meme was funny within the context of the question posed

oldschoolpuckster · Post by **oldschoolpuckster** » Fri May 15, 2015 12:29 pm

Last I heard (from one of the coaches) is that BE will be allowed to play Tier 1 for the future. They are just not going to be eligible to compete for a National Title.

imlisteningtothefnsong · Fri Jun 12, 2015 5:47 pm

I would not say I am a BE supporter. My oldest finished there this year and I see much of the same issues as Achiever. Low numbers limited talent. Most of the high end coaches at BE have been "let go". I still think the idea is great, but they are not making good long term decisions. My daughter had her Northern Lights year end banquet last night, it was so well done that many of us sensitive dads had tears in their eyes. The founder of NL started this program in the proper way. He most likely lost money initially, but focused on the players and their development. With that in mind he has built a program that is maxed out with numbers, tryouts and waiting lists. He, no doubt has a big fat pay check from this and I say good for him. The 20 or so seniors are all going on to play college v-ball and 10 year olds are lined up to follow suit. These girls all played for their high school teams as well. Mn high school hockey is in no danger from the BE/Achiever type schools unless somebody like the NL v-ball takes the bull by the horns.

old goalie85 · Post by **old goalie85** » Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:34 am

I love to see a grown man cry !!

The Exiled One · Post by **The Exiled One** » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:48 pm

I wasn't aware until I read this, but it looks like the six Elite League teams will be given Tier 1 designation. Maybe that was common knowledge, but this was the first I heard of it.