Duluth Marshall dreams big, opts up to Class 2A

MNHockeyFan · Post by **MNHockeyFan** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 3:22 am

Second in a three-part StarTribune series.

Sending a message
Flaherty believes other teams “could easily make the jump [to Class 2A] and for whatever reason have decided to stay where they are.” Was Flaherty referring to Hermantown coach and friend Bruce Plante? The Hawks have reached the past six Class 1A title games, losing them all. “We respect each other and we like each other, but we do have different philosophies,” Flaherty said.

http://www.mnhockeyhub.com/news_article ... r_id=32770

Jeffy95 · Post by **Jeffy95** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 3:56 am

Great Article. Marshall deserves a lot of credit for moving up and there is a lot of buzz around that program up here now. Watch for them to continue to build every year like Flaherty said.

I really had to laugh when I read this:

Coaches Mike Randolph (East), Kevin Smalley (Denfeld) and Bruce Plante (Hermantown) all claim their players have been recruited by Duluth Marshall parents. Flaherty said he didn’t want to comment.

Hermantown parents and youth coaches have been recruiting Proctor and West Duluth kids for years. He's the biggest hypocrite in High School hockey today.

[Plante said four players, including two sons of a Hermantown youth hockey association coach, left for Duluth Marshall. Plante said he can’t recall losing a player to the Hillltoppers’ program before it moved to Class 2A.

Gee Bruce, I wonder why they would leave to play for a big time program and play against the best when they can stay at Hermantown and play in one game that matters in an entire season? It's only going to get worse. With the hordes of transfers in Hermantown's youth program, these parents have already shown that they'll chase the best opportunity to showcase their kids.

“It leaves a sour taste,” Plante said.

Of course it does Bruce. How do you think Proctor and Duluth feels when your record book is full of kids from those two programs?

Said Randolph. “The day I have to recruit my own players, I’m going to move on.”

Welcome to the New World Order Mike.

rainier · Post by **rainier** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 5:02 am

Alarms are going off in Hermantown. Marshall getting those Hermantown kids was a clear message that people in Hawkland are getting fed up with having one stubborn coach hold the program back from taking the next step.

There is a strange disconnect in Hermantown between the youth association and the HS program. The youth program aggressively challenges itself by playing AA with schedules as tough as any team in the state and they actively recruit area players to join their teams, while the HS program shrinks away from tougher competition and claims they are small town hockey made up of hometown kids.

The youth program is doing everything they can to grow and improve their team, while the high school program is doing everything they can to maintain the status quo and stack trophies. No wonder there are Hermantown parents looking for a high school program that can match the ambition and drive of the Hermantown youth program.

I couldn't believe Hermantown didn't opt up last year, as this year would have been their first in AA and they would be the #1 seed in 7AA. Had they opted up, those 4 kids now at Marshall would have likely stayed in Hermantown, and they would have made this year's and especially next year's Hawk teams that much better. 2015 was the perfect time for this program to opt up as they would have been top ten in AA in 2016 and 2017, guaranteed.

What sucks is that because these 4 kids left, Hermantown won't be as good next season and might not even be the favorite in 7A the year after that (probably Virginia), so there is a built in excuse to not opt up.

If Marshall can continue to attract a significant chunk of Hermantown talent, then I think 2015 will be looked at as the year the Hawks jumped the shark.

Nevertoomuchhockey · Post by **Nevertoomuchhockey** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 5:55 am

rainier wrote:Alarms are going off in Hermantown. Marshall getting those Hermantown kids was a clear message that people in Hawkland are getting fed up with having one stubborn coach hold the program back from taking the next step.

There is a strange disconnect in Hermantown between the youth association and the HS program. The youth program aggressively challenges itself by playing AA with schedules as tough as any team in the state and they actively recruit area players to join their teams, while the HS program shrinks away from tougher competition and claims they are small town hockey made up of hometown kids.

The youth program is doing everything they can to grow and improve their team, while the high school program is doing everything they can to maintain the status quo and stack trophies. No wonder there are Hermantown parents looking for a high school program that can match the ambition and drive of the Hermantown youth program.

I couldn't believe Hermantown didn't opt up last year, as this year would have been their first in AA and they would be the #1 seed in 7AA. Had they opted up, those 4 kids now at Marshall would have likely stayed in Hermantown, and they would have made this year's and especially next year's Hawk teams that much better. 2015 was the perfect time for this program to opt up as they would have been top ten in AA in 2016 and 2017, guaranteed.

What sucks is that because these 4 kids left, Hermantown won't be as good next season and might not even be the favorite in 7A the year after that (probably Virginia), so there is a built in excuse to not opt up.

If Marshall can continue to attract a significant chunk of Hermantown talent, then I think 2015 will be looked at as the year the Hawks jumped the shark.

How old are the transfers? I don't think you can call it recruiting if it is before or at ninth grade level. If kids come in at the start of middle or high school when they would be moving schools anyway, I think that number would include some who are coming for AA but also others who were coming anyway. Most (all?) private schools don't have their own squirts and bantams right? So technically everyone is a "transfer" if your criteria is where they played youth hockey.

rainier · Post by **rainier** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 6:15 am

Nevertoomuchhockey wrote:
rainier wrote:Alarms are going off in Hermantown. Marshall getting those Hermantown kids was a clear message that people in Hawkland are getting fed up with having one stubborn coach hold the program back from taking the next step.

There is a strange disconnect in Hermantown between the youth association and the HS program. The youth program aggressively challenges itself by playing AA with schedules as tough as any team in the state and they actively recruit area players to join their teams, while the HS program shrinks away from tougher competition and claims they are small town hockey made up of hometown kids.

The youth program is doing everything they can to grow and improve their team, while the high school program is doing everything they can to maintain the status quo and stack trophies. No wonder there are Hermantown parents looking for a high school program that can match the ambition and drive of the Hermantown youth program.

I couldn't believe Hermantown didn't opt up last year, as this year would have been their first in AA and they would be the #1 seed in 7AA. Had they opted up, those 4 kids now at Marshall would have likely stayed in Hermantown, and they would have made this year's and especially next year's Hawk teams that much better. 2015 was the perfect time for this program to opt up as they would have been top ten in AA in 2016 and 2017, guaranteed.

What sucks is that because these 4 kids left, Hermantown won't be as good next season and might not even be the favorite in 7A the year after that (probably Virginia), so there is a built in excuse to not opt up.

If Marshall can continue to attract a significant chunk of Hermantown talent, then I think 2015 will be looked at as the year the Hawks jumped the shark.
How old are the transfers? I don't think you can call it recruiting if it is before or at ninth grade level. If kids come in at the start of middle or high school when they would be moving schools anyway, I think that number would include some who are coming for AA but also others who were coming anyway. Most (all?) private schools don't have their own squirts and bantams right? So technically everyone is a "transfer" if your criteria is where they played youth hockey.

The issue is with Hermantown youth coaches recruiting top kids from other area youth associations, and then having Plante act like Marshall is doing something wrong by recruiting Hermantown youth players.

I don't think anyone, including Marshall parents and coaches, would deny that Marshall recruits. Duluth is a metro area and it's just the reality of AA hockey.

The point is that Hermantown youth players have always gone on to play for the Hermantown HS program, but now Marshall has broken that barrier and may start getting more and more of these players.

MNHockeyFan · Post by **MNHockeyFan** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 6:34 am

Just wondering what is the exact meaning of "recruiting" when it comes to the MSHSL and Minnesota high school hockey? As far as I'm aware the rules against recruiting only apply to the coaching staff and school administration. If this is correct then parents (and current players) "getting the word out" isn't against the rules. Just as kids, parents and coaches (but not high school coaches) involved in off-season teams who actively recruit players "from wherever" to play on their off-season teams are not breaking any MSHSL rules...at least that's my understanding.

Can anyone who knows what they're talking about shed some light? It's my impression that some people throw around the "R" word rather loosely, accusing others of "breaking the law" when they're not.

kniven · Post by **kniven** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 7:02 am

rainier wrote:
Nevertoomuchhockey wrote:
rainier wrote:Alarms are going off in Hermantown. Marshall getting those Hermantown kids was a clear message that people in Hawkland are getting fed up with having one stubborn coach hold the program back from taking the next step.

There is a strange disconnect in Hermantown between the youth association and the HS program. The youth program aggressively challenges itself by playing AA with schedules as tough as any team in the state and they actively recruit area players to join their teams, while the HS program shrinks away from tougher competition and claims they are small town hockey made up of hometown kids.

The youth program is doing everything they can to grow and improve their team, while the high school program is doing everything they can to maintain the status quo and stack trophies. No wonder there are Hermantown parents looking for a high school program that can match the ambition and drive of the Hermantown youth program.

I couldn't believe Hermantown didn't opt up last year, as this year would have been their first in AA and they would be the #1 seed in 7AA. Had they opted up, those 4 kids now at Marshall would have likely stayed in Hermantown, and they would have made this year's and especially next year's Hawk teams that much better. 2015 was the perfect time for this program to opt up as they would have been top ten in AA in 2016 and 2017, guaranteed.

What sucks is that because these 4 kids left, Hermantown won't be as good next season and might not even be the favorite in 7A the year after that (probably Virginia), so there is a built in excuse to not opt up.

If Marshall can continue to attract a significant chunk of Hermantown talent, then I think 2015 will be looked at as the year the Hawks jumped the shark.
How old are the transfers? I don't think you can call it recruiting if it is before or at ninth grade level. If kids come in at the start of middle or high school when they would be moving schools anyway, I think that number would include some who are coming for AA but also others who were coming anyway. Most (all?) private schools don't have their own squirts and bantams right? So technically everyone is a "transfer" if your criteria is where they played youth hockey.
The issue is with Hermantown youth coaches recruiting top kids from other area youth associations, and then having Plante act like Marshall is doing something wrong by recruiting Hermantown youth players.

I don't think anyone, including Marshall parents and coaches, would deny that Marshall recruits. Duluth is a metro area and it's just the reality of AA hockey.

The point is that Hermantown youth players have always gone on to play for the Hermantown HS program, but now Marshall has broken that barrier and may start getting more and more of these players.

Hermantown is now an official "feeder program" of Duluth Marshall high school AA hockey. Duluth Marshall is going to be a dangerous team in 7AA for ever.

Nevertoomuchhockey · Post by **Nevertoomuchhockey** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 7:04 am

MNHockeyFan wrote:Just wondering what is the exact meaning of "recruiting" when it comes to the MSHSL and Minnesota high school hockey? As far as I'm aware the rules against recruiting only apply to the coaching staff and school administration. If this is correct then parents (and current players) "getting the word out" isn't against the rules. Just as kids, parents and coaches (but not high school coaches) involved in off-season teams who actively recruit players "from wherever" to play on their off-season teams are not breaking any MSHSL rules...at least that's my understanding.

Can anyone who knows what they're talking about shed some light? It's my impression that some people throw around the "R" word rather loosely, accusing others of "breaking the law" when they're not.

Nicely stated.

And Rainier I understand and agree with most of what you said as well. But it still stands true that high schools that don't have their own affiliated youth associations have to pull their entire teams out of someone else's program. Whether that's by chance or intentional.

Jeffy95 · Post by **Jeffy95** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 7:19 am

MNHockeyFan wrote:Just wondering what is the exact meaning of "recruiting" when it comes to the MSHSL and Minnesota high school hockey? As far as I'm aware the rules against recruiting only apply to the coaching staff and school administration. If this is correct then parents (and current players) "getting the word out" isn't against the rules. Just as kids, parents and coaches (but not high school coaches) involved in off-season teams who actively recruit players "from wherever" to play on their off-season teams are not breaking any MSHSL rules...at least that's my understanding.

Can anyone who knows what they're talking about shed some light? It's my impression that some people throw around the "R" word rather loosely, accusing others of "breaking the law" when they're not.

I'm sure you are correct, parents are free to do what they want. Which makes it even crazier that Bruce is whining about it. Everything was fine and dandy when the only recruits were the ones flooding into Hermantown. I used to like the guy but he's such a hypocrite I have no choice but to cheer against him now.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 7:52 am

MSHSL Recruiting rules:
1. Any verbal or written contact initiated by a representative of another school soliciting the transfer of a high school student or junior high school student to participate in a sport will be considered as asserting undue influence, for
which the school may be publicly censured, removed from tournament competition, or suspended from the League.

If the contact is initiated by an individual who is not a representative of a school, that individual’s name shall be recorded and a warning issued. If a further violation is reported relative to this individual, they will be considered to be a representative of the school, and the school may be subject to a suspension from League-sponsored activities.

2. Unless reliable evidence to the contrary is presented, the Board of Directors shall accept as prima facie evidence of undue infl uence: awarding of tuition, allowance for board/room, allowance for transportation, priority in assignments of jobs, cash or gifts in any form, or any other privilege or consideration accorded if not similarly available to students not articipating in athletics.
3. An alleged violation will require a letter of inquiry from the League office. On the basis of the response to the member school from the letter of inquiry, the Board of Directors may choose to appoint a committee to conduct a full investigation. It shall be an obligation of any member school to cooperate with this investigating committee which shall include a full disclosure of all records, scholarships, and information pertinent to the investigation.
4. Penalty:
A. Student: Undue influence by any person connected or not connected with the school which results in securing or
retaining the attendance of a student in a school shall cause the student to be ineligible for one calendar year.
B. School: Any verbal or written contact initiated by a representative of another school will be considered as
asserting undue infl uence, for which the school may be:
1) Publicly censured;
2) Fined;
a) On the first offense, the fi ne shall be $500;
b) On the second offense, the fi ne shall be $750;
c) On the third offense, the fi ne shall be $1,000;
3) Removed from tournament competition; or
4) Suspended from the League.

So, yes, a parent or student or community member can be guilty of recruiting.

MNHockeyFan · Post by **MNHockeyFan** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 8:21 am

elliott70 wrote:So, yes, a parent or student or community member can be guilty of recruiting.

elliott70, thanks for posting the rules. With all that's going on in Duluth and Hermantown it's good for everyone to know what's permitted and what's not permitted.

The key words appear to be "...soliciting the transfer of a high school student or junior high school student to participate in a sport..." and "If the contact is initiated by an individual who is not a representative of a school, that individual’s name shall be recorded and a warning issued."

So if a parent or student initiates the contact they get a warning. Maybe that's part of the reason why we don't hear about these types of violations. Someone gets a warning and that's pretty much it unless they do it again and a second instance is reported to the League. And certainly a player or parent who responds favorably to a "contact" and then does transfer is not going to report themselves. They're in the clear as long as they keep their mouths shut.

Nevertoomuchhockey · Post by **Nevertoomuchhockey** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:18 pm

Overheard at the rink, pond, grocery store, Caribou:

"Hey, I hear your kid is going to Hill/Breck/Marshall next year."

"Yep you heard right."

"That's great. (Or that sucks.) Why did you guys make that decision?"

"...classes sports music location reputation (whatever.) He is really excited. The coach and team have/are/say... Can't wait."

Envision the same conversation from a he has been there 1,2,3,4 years graduated last year and here is our experience perspective.

Damn, I'm a recruiter!

To me the difference between talking up your program and recruiting is who seeks it out and the consistency of the discussion. If I tell my buddy how great HM is every month for two years and his kid ends up there, did I recruit him? Or did I make friends with the guy with the best mite and squirt players in every nearby association and brag on our record and coach and tradition?

The rule is ambiguous at best. And like the transfer rule, requires honesty.

Jeffy95 · Post by **Jeffy95** » Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:00 am

elliott70 wrote:MSHSL Recruiting rules:
1. Any verbal or written contact initiated by a representative of another school soliciting the transfer of a high school student or junior high school student to participate in a sport will be considered as asserting undue influence, for
which the school may be publicly censured, removed from tournament competition, or suspended from the League.

If the contact is initiated by an individual who is not a representative of a school, that individual’s name shall be recorded and a warning issued. If a further violation is reported relative to this individual, they will be considered to be a representative of the school, and the school may be subject to a suspension from League-sponsored activities.

2. Unless reliable evidence to the contrary is presented, the Board of Directors shall accept as prima facie evidence of undue infl uence: awarding of tuition, allowance for board/room, allowance for transportation, priority in assignments of jobs, cash or gifts in any form, or any other privilege or consideration accorded if not similarly available to students not articipating in athletics.
3. An alleged violation will require a letter of inquiry from the League office. On the basis of the response to the member school from the letter of inquiry, the Board of Directors may choose to appoint a committee to conduct a full investigation. It shall be an obligation of any member school to cooperate with this investigating committee which shall include a full disclosure of all records, scholarships, and information pertinent to the investigation.
4. Penalty:
A. Student: Undue influence by any person connected or not connected with the school which results in securing or
retaining the attendance of a student in a school shall cause the student to be ineligible for one calendar year.
B. School: Any verbal or written contact initiated by a representative of another school will be considered as
asserting undue infl uence, for which the school may be:
1) Publicly censured;
2) Fined;
a) On the first offense, the fi ne shall be $500;
b) On the second offense, the fi ne shall be $750;
c) On the third offense, the fi ne shall be $1,000;
3) Removed from tournament competition; or
4) Suspended from the League.

So, yes, a parent or student or community member can be guilty of recruiting.

Very interesting, I had no idea that a parent or youth coach wasn't allowed to recruit once they are middle school age. I'm not sure how you could enforce it though, the programs that are good at it and do it a lot don't write anything down, it's all verbal. And it usually happens by Squirts nowadays as the top players all get noticed in off season camps and AAA when these people have plenty of access to the player's parents. And in the very rare instances where you got caught I'm not sure a $500 fine is stopping anyone either. The student brings over $6,000 from the State with them when they open enroll.