Tier II - West Metro Team

buffalo1 · Post by **buffalo1** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:30 am

Where is everyone getting information on this team? Is there a website now?

TDY · Post by **TDY** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:36 am

Somebody said because he had too many conflicts with football. I dont know why he did not realize that when he tried out or realized it two weeks ago when most high school football programs start. Now ive heard alex hess is playing for section 8A/8AA and not as alternate for west metro where he would have now been called up. The other goalie now i dont know who will be for west metro.

RLStars · Post by **RLStars** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:48 am

I think that they need to DROP the West Metro team for next year and go back to strictly HS Section lines. Apparently the West Metro team was added to give the league 9 teams and reduce travel fro Elk River, Buffalo, Monticello and St. Cloud. Each weekend, a team would host two other teams for a game each and that would mean there are three host sites. If they go back to 8 teams, they could have two host sites with 3 teams each and have the other two teams schedule a practice (after all, it is for development right?) or meet for two games at a nuetral distance site to reduce travel expenses. Also find a site (lets look at Section 8, Buffalo to Warroad) that is centrally located, as much as possible, or when its that teams turn to host, move it to the other end of the Section. Again, I would like to see this league flourish and feel it could be a great league for our kids to develop. Look at the youth hockey section on this board and you'll find a few threads on the trend towards winter AAA hockey. The MSHSL limits game and thats fine, but AAA midgets plays twice as many. Lets keep our kids local. How about adding a Tier III league for bantam aged (8th and 9th grade) or just Freshman and Sophomores. Tier II for Juniors and Seniors?

scottparker · Post by **scottparker** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:35 pm

RL, you need to get with Sioux Fan and work on these ideas. This program could do a lot of good if it is done correctly.

RLStars · Post by **RLStars** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:42 pm

Yeah Scott, knowbody is asking for perfection here, we're just asking that it become better. Near perfection can be obtained if they make an effort to improve each year by the lessons learned from the year previous. I think there is a huge lesson to be learned here with the West Metro team.

puckhead89 · Post by **puckhead89** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:55 pm

RLStars, as always you have hit the nail on the head. I hope the Elite II can find itself and have an impact (like the original intent of the Elite I) to keep kids at their high school programs. We all want it to work for the kids.

RLStars · Post by **RLStars** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:57 pm

You are too kind.

puckhead89 · Post by **puckhead89** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:27 pm

What happened in Section 8 that they needed an alternate goalie pulled up from another section? SiouxFan, here is where your 4 man goalie roster would come in handy, eh? I would think they will call on the 4th goalie who showed up for the final night of tryouts....and then maybe they should call on the #5 goalie for the alternate....don't chuckle, but that move could give West Metro a stronger team.......but.... Likely, they will call on another alternate from another section to take on the vacant spot.

Puckguy · Post by **Puckguy** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 9:50 am

I would anticipate that Tier III may be in the works for next season. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif ALT=":hat">

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 9:55 am

A tier III concept has not been brought to MN Hockey for consideration. I would support the idea, but/if strong leadership is needed to demonstrate that it will be viable and not just in one part of the state but for all teams involved. The girls elite group came in with a good group of people to lead with sound ideas and were greatly supported.

Puckguy · Post by **Puckguy** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 7:35 am

RL Stars - As with many things in life, hockey decisions are made by those who participate and show up. It takes a significant amount of time to get a league up and running, and evaluating results on the basis of one year is a little extreme. Along with Bill Moore, Mike MacMillan and Bruce Johnson were instrumental in developing this league. Could that have played a role in putting together a West Metro team, sure. But it also appears to make sense for the players - and I'm sure we all agree thats what its about. No matter who is selected for any program like this, there are always missed opportunities and cries of politics, and I'm sure there always will be. Ted Brill probably put it best in wording still used by Minnesota Hockey . . . The toughest assignment we face is the player evaluation process. As you know "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder" and that could result in a staff of eight evaluators coming up with eight different opinions about the same player. Selecting players is not a perfect science (unfortunately). There just isn't a perfect method that assures that we will always slect the best players. . . . None of us gets a kick out of disappointing kids! The best we can hope for is to give the selection process our fullest attention. . . . If you advance to the next phase of the program congratulations! If you don't then we hope you will do what all good athletes do, prepare, do all that you can, and be ready the next time opportunity knocks! Hockey is not life, just a part of it. I would guess that being picked or not for an Elite II team won't mean a hill of beans in the big picture of someone's life. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif ALT=":hat">

Sioux Fan · Post by **Sioux Fan** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 8:23 am

Puck Guy, That is the truth. That is why perception and who is deciding really matters for our guys. Opportunity and who dishes it out is important. I loved Ted Brill and he was honest and always tried to do the right thing. I hope that is everyone's intent in these programs but I know you cannot change deep seeded bias and this is what hurts our areas best players. Hockey Nut in So. MN

puckhead89 · Post by **puckhead89** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:13 am

Puckguy, I agree with all of your general comments, I really do. I, too, love the quote about the evaluators because they do have a tough job. But, all RLStars is doing, as are some of the other posters who have voiced concerns about the West Metro process, is suggesting the process under which this section operated appears to be inadequate. Whether it was bias or simply poor planning, a re-evaluation of how West Metro handled things is in order for positive growth in this league as a whole. So, while there is nothing that can be done about the disappointing way in which West Metro appeared to have handled their "section" this year, perhaps good constructive criticism will help the league developers create something Minnesotans can be proud of. We all understand it's a developing process and hope that comments/suggestions made to the commissioner, the GM's and head coaches are considered. Sometimes those looking in have some good information, even though they aren't at the round table discussions.

RLStars · Post by **RLStars** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:18 am

Puckguy I applaud Bill Moore, Mike Mcmillian and Bruce Johnson. I think what they are doing is a huge benefit to MN HS hockey and its players. I'm not knocking the program as a whole. Like most organizations, it takes people to step up, pull up thier sleeves and get a little dirty. We need more hockey people like that, so hats off to them. If you read some of my other posts, you'll see that I support Elite II. Like some other posters here, I'd like to see more seniors make the team. I'd also like to see an Elite III in the works and have that be a Freshman and Sophomore group. Just think, we could double the opporitunities to play in a competetive fall league. I would lend a hand if asked. A little background on me: I never got the chance to play as a youth. I had a father that said hockey was to expensive (imagine that). I did however have a lot of close friends who played and play lots of street hockey as a kid. My son started playing in third grade and I stepped up to help out on the ice. I was an assistant squirt coach for the next two years and then head coach our pw B team that went to regionals. I assisted the PW Ateam and last year was co-head coach of our BA team. I have been a board member of our association for five years and am now the president. I have also been apart of our player developement program. So I'm NOT here to bash anybody that has taken the inititive to start a league like this. I would however like to see it prosper and excel. As I stated earlier, "Perfection is unattainable, but near perfectiion is as long as we learn from, and improve on the past". I think that having one team that is coached, managed and evaluated by one group is a bad idea and bad for the kids in that area. These guys have been around long enough to see the percieved bias and take the proper steps to curtail them, if there is indeed no specific adgenda. Why add negative attention to this situation, when the league deserve more positive attention and credit. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D"> Edited by: <A HREF=http://p074.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... RLStars</A> at: 9/2/05 9:24 am

timmyo · Post by **timmyo** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:25 am

I've been reading this thread intently, interested but determined to not respond. Intense interest, in the end, has overwhelmed my determination! The purpose of my post is simple: to defend the integrity and the motives of the people involved in the High School Elite Leage's selection process. I have no role in player selection for the league. But, I have watched those involved in the process do their work. Any claim or allegation, overt or implied, that they make decision colored by "bias" or in pursuit of some "agenda" is naive and insulting. First, they solicit input from every coach in every corner of the state. Every coach has a chance to nominate players from their own teams and players from their opponents' teams. Some do, some don't. Some are realistic, some are not. Every piece of input, however, is distributed, considered and analyzed. No player is cast aside because of where they play. There is no "metro" pile and "outstate" pile when the evaluators are trying to pick the state's top players. Every single nominated kid is put on the watch list, and watched. Next, they watch kids. They watch them alot. They watch them play regular season high school games, they watch them play at tournament time, they watch them play at selects. They watch any time they can see any kid who is on the list. "I've never seen a League evaluator, and I'm at every one of my team's games," some may object. The evaluators don't go into a rink with blaze orange Elite League jackets and bulging clipboards - they pay for a ticket, sit quietly in the stands, watch the game closely, and bring their evaluations of players to the League meetings. Furthermore, they discuss players and compare notes extensively. This is not a one meeting, two hours and the teams are picked process. These guys listen to each other intently, pull out coach recommendations and other submitted material often, solicit help when information is scarce or when it will be helpful, and discuss, discuss, discuss ad nasaum. I have listened quietly as literally hundreds (more than 300 players were on this year's list at one time or another) of players have been individually discussed and considered, often several times. The evaluators sometimes disagree, sometimes vociferiously, but every evaluation discussion centers on the kid's playing ability. Finally, when the "top end" selections have been made and kids are placed directly in the league, tryouts are set up. The league tries to invite as many kids to tryouts as possible while keeping the list small enough to ensure that every kid on the ice gets a maximum evaluation opportunity. Every evaluator at the tryout ranks every kid. Every score is tabulated, every kid is ranked. Then the teams are filled out. John Russo's heart for Minnesota hockey players is as big as anyone's in the State of Minnesota. "Who dishes out" opportunity is important - and I'm thrilled John Russo is involved. His motives and his integrity are pure. He has poured thousands of hours and thousands of his own dollars into building opportunity for Minnesota kids to play hockey in Minnesota, and doing his best to build that opportunity the right way. He also includes with great evaluators, and purposely makes the process as thorough and comprehensive as possible. The motives and integrity of these folks is just as pure. I am impressed with the process, and impressed with the results. I will not engage in posts that scream "oh yeah, what about this kid" or "I know a guy who knows a guy who said so and so got into the League because he knows another guy." The League has a mission, and has designed an evaluation process to meet that mission. The process reflects the mission and is a good process. All that said, I also respect Sioux Fan, and enthusiastically support his development of hockey players and hockey opportunities. He may disagree with the League's evaluators in some (or many) instances, but I think his motives and intent, too, are pure. His rhetoric, however, sometimes belies his intent. Intense interest, I'm guessing - passion, which can be a wonderful motivator if properly tempered.

timmyo · Post by **timmyo** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:28 am

I meant to add this to Sioux Fan's thread about his own Elite II team - but I screwed up and don't know how to fix it by moving my respons. Sorry.

puckhead89 · Post by **puckhead89** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:35 am

Good thing you quickly added this, because you will find many on this thread mention that many of the Elite I processes should be reviewed as a model for Elite II to proceed more successfully.

Sioux Fan · Post by **Sioux Fan** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 1:01 pm

Timmyoh I don't know about rhetoric I look at numbers and what effect this league has had on our area's kids getting jobs in the USHL and NAHL. That is what matters who gets the next opportunity and who took that from our guys and stole it from us period. Rhetoric meets the facts with numbers. If so-called experts ie high school coaches scouts etc. Tell our guys they can't I fear they may believe your BS..... Any process that doesn't match up the best kids head to head for several days and gives them a fair shot is bankrupt. Hockey Nut in So. MN

Sioux Fan · Post by **Sioux Fan** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 1:18 pm

I firmly agree with Ted Brill Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I think my guys are great kids and deserve to be tested watched and scouted. I think we were 1st in the Advanced 17 this year and we beat Section 8 5-1 or 5-2 the year before with my two Elite Goalies going against VanVelde, Lee Ammerman and Oshie... Our guys didn't get squat.. I told Dean Blais to pay attention because we were going to kick the krap out of Section 8 before the game because he always told me that he couldn't recruit guys form our area or at least south of Edina. I laughed and asked him what his record has been vs CC since they started getting all the Rochester Boys... I loved it when a kid from Sleepy Eye scored the first goal on the first shift. Heck I didn't even know this kid until our tryouts started... Way to go Spilner you are in my memory forever. We lost by one to a good Duluth Marshall area and finished by winning the 3rd place game. My question is what do they watch if Tim Kirby isn't in? If Cory Krogen and Bryce Wilcox are not in? I don't think they watch our guys very closely period. I think that Coach Owens knows a good fishing hole when he finds one. I also know that when our kids got to compete with the best seniors involved we could beat anyone Shattuck Prep. Section 8 Section 7 Section 5 etc... So why do they not take our best seniors into the Elite League? Kirby Dunfee Gorman Petricka Lair Steege Last Year Ellingson Murphy Holland Kangas Ryan Wilcox Trail Elertson. All playing well and doing better than metro Elite players. WHY WHY WHY???????? It is crystal clear to me.. Why would they take juniors vs seniors this year? Why would they not even consult with me? WHY WHY WHY More rhetoric... Hockey Nut in So. MNEdited by: <A HREF=http://p074.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... xfan>Sioux Fan</A> at: 9/2/05 3:11 pm

whatthepuck · Post by **whatthepuck** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 1:54 pm

From what i heard concerning the section 8 goalie: No goalies tried out for section 8. Section 7 had 10 goalies try out, they took 2 and an alternate , then sent some goalies to sec. 8 dont know how many, or who, or if they went.

ROYALELK · Post by **ROYALELK** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 1:58 pm

c'mon timmy....dont pee on my back and tell me its raining....you work for the league correct?

Sioux Fan · Post by **Sioux Fan** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:04 pm

Oh Yeah and Timmyo I think that we don't hold back when my teams play. I always say that the administrators and MN Hockey is in favor of large sheets and not much hitting. I like a hard forecheck and 3 on 3 battles. How much of that goes into this elaborate and extensive evaluation process. When I look at the guys you take I see the skill guys but what about the guys that are hard to play against. Ie Barry Melrose.. What about that. I think that a lot of the elite guys they take are a little less physical than the guys I like. I like to have a team of about 15 to 25 guys that are always going to be first to the corners defensive end and offensive end. I like to have people who win the puck not expect someone to get it for em. How can you determine a team that is going to be good at the junior level or college level by just watching a one day 5 on 5 scrimmage. I like to break it down and get the guys that want a job a chance to kick the tail of the guy that he is battling against. I am pretty sure that part is missing in the we are the experts and beauty contest judge tryouts we speak of with the Elite I process. Any process that has discussion is good but I would rather see it pure. Let the boys decide... I know if you want to find out who is going to get the job done shift in and shift out you have to see em get it done against good tough competition. Sometimes the best skater shooter passer disappears when someone gets under his skin and challenges him with physical play. God forbid you would have physical play in MN Hockey. I thought it was curious when we were playing in the Advance 17 event in Plymouth that they called off the game because a fight occured with our team leading by one goal with 2 minutes + and us shorthanded because a fight occurred. Who you ask did this. It was a highly sought player from a world renound program. Of course he moved on. Did Tim Kirby? Did Jay Gorman? Both had two points in the championship game. Both did whatever we asked em to do and did it as hard as they can. That is what I want on my bench and representing MN. Not guys that think of themselves 1st and the rest of the team 2nd or never. Let me know what you think of that process. As if this was the first time a fight had occurred at a hockey game. The lesson that should have been learned was that you don't take a selfish penalty 90 ft from the puck with 4 minutes to go with a 1 goal lead. MN hockey called off the game with about 2:39 left to go. We should have gotten shelled and maybe survive down two players until the horn went. No, Let's not have that lesson let's call it off suspend the players and than move them up the ladder because they are world renownd. When we scrimmaged at Shattuck 4 on 4 the Century forwards and Canzanello and Kirby must have beat the Shattuck Prep guys 14 - 2 in two scrimmages. I invited Andy Murray and Bruce Carson to come and watch later in the week and the Shattuck boys don't show up. I think Rhetoric and Perception are very clear here. I must admit that the Shattuck guys who I like and respect and think are wonderful players were probably not as excited as the boys from Rochester and Austn were but 14 -2 you wouldn't think that would you... Hockey Nut in So. MN

puckhead89 · Post by **puckhead89** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:29 pm

Thanks for responding. Good grief....how can a section, like 8, not have any goalies trying out for Elite II? Then another section have 10???? Are you saying that section 7 sent their alternate to play in 8, just like West Metro did? Or, are you saying that those that didn't make the cut at section 7 were allowed a second tryout for section 8? If that is the case, that bothers me a great deal. Things seem to be getting messier. If West Metro and Section 7 are now left without alternate goalies, what are they going to do in the event of injury or conflict? If Section 7 was allowed to have some athletes try out for another section, I can tell you of many an athlete that would like that opportunity. Again, I stress format, plan, regulation....something so that this league can be looked upon without doubt. This year seems to have been overwhelmingly "shooting from the hip" for these sections and that simply shouldn't be the case...even in its early years. Okay now I wait for a response like "puckhead must have been cut" ....not. I am not a high school athlete, but I am someone who is interested in seeing development in athletes and most interested in goaltender development. At this level, it shouldn't be so hard to find the goalies who are committed, talented, hard working and willing to take their game to the next level. But you have to have someone that knows what they are looking for. There was a guy from Elk River....I see him from time to time at the select tryouts as an evaluator...his name escapes me. He would be a great addition to the staff of the Elite II because he gets goaltending. This has been an odd sequence of events for tryouts in this elite league...and truly odd for the netminders. Anyone out there have a positive experience in their sections? (Other than you SiouxFan) Time to hear about the sections who were prepared and handled their tryouts without a hitch. All that are reading this thread would welcome something positive......

whatthepuck · Post by **whatthepuck** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:03 pm

I know they were all rated by the sec.7 staff ,they then kept 2 and an alternate .....the next rated kids were allowed to go sec. 8 if they wanted to. whether they did or not..??

puckhead89 · Post by **puckhead89** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 6:18 pm

Could've offered other sections same opportunity.....but....

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Tier II - West Metro Team

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