Officating at the 2014 AA Boys Tournament

[inthestands]

Happy, as you can see "realistic" is different things to different people.

Just as penalty calling is different to different officials and different times of the game...

It's interesting to me the number of people that find officiating consistency issues, at a level of play many or all have never been involved in from a refereeing perspective.

I guess for some, it's impossible to imagine the game being different at ice level, as compared to spectating.

If you've ever coached or officiated, it's not that much of a stretch.

[Winter is Coming]

Your post shows an attitude that is wrong. You are willing to bend rules and have kids behave differently under the same circumstance in a different location. Is it OK to sucker punch a kid from behind in a bowling alley in I-Falls but not in Edina? OK to have kids in Edina learn to read and not to have kids in Gilbert learn to read? Right is right and wrong is wrong. We have a duty to these kids to teach them to play by the rules and to show them what the rules are and then to enforce them. Basically you are telling them that it is not illegal if you don't get caught and that is rough way to go through life.

Nice job putting words in my mouth.

My post shows a realistic attitude, and your strawman examples are over the top silly.

Should the State Patrol issue speeding tickets to each and every driver who is going 1 mile over the speed limit? After all, under is under and over is over.

My attitude isn't wrong, it's realistic. In baseball, the strike zone is set in stone as a "law" and the guys calling balls and strikes should base their calls on the law. But the umps are human making split-second calls, and some umps have a wider strike zone than others. Quicker a batter figures out whether the ump is giving the pitcher the corners, the better. And the league doesn't fire every umpire who fails to call them exactly as hindsight video slo-mo replay says they should be called. Now, does the fact that MLB allows a small amount of variance in strike zones means that an ump can get away with calling a pitch over the batter's head a strike? Of course not...no more than the driver going 98 in a 65 can expect to cruise through a speed trap so long as the flow of traffic is going 70.

Hockey is a game that is designed like all other games to between two participants or teams. The ref who is supposed to be the adult has to be consistant. No where in the rule book does it say that the refs will be told when to call trips and when not to so the coaches adn kids had better figure it out quickly. MN Hockey (youth and high school) have a set of guidelines saying that tripping is tripping and it needs to be called. It is frustrating to hear things like the refs have marbles in their pockets to make sure that it all evens out. If that is so then the refs need to be fired and replaced. You can't have a ref not calling a penalty that occures in OT becuase he does not want to influance the game and it's outcome. He just did by letting a team get away with breaking the rules without sanction. Why should he call it in the first period then? It might turn out to be a 1 0 game and the only goal that was scored was the PPG when he called it. He just gave the game away to the other team in the first period. To use your example if an umpire is calling a low inside ball a strike in the first inning and then changes it to a ball when it is the bottom of the 9th and the game is on the line then, yes, he should be fired. The ref or umpire is there to consistantly enforce the rules of the game that are agreed upon prior to the start of the game. Yes, I get that there is a judgement area in reffing. Did the kid fall because he hit the stick or did he just fall. That grey zone will always be there and that is OK, but when you can sit down and say that the refs are tighter in one area than they are in the other then that is wrong and needs to be fixed. It needs to be uniform across the board. Then to cap it off you see blatent boarding and head contact calls being not called or turned into cross checking calls because the ref does not want to give the kid a major. This is crazy. Why play the games at all? How about we set up leagues. This is the no tripping league. This is teh tripping league where tripping is called in the first three periods of the game but won't be in OT. We allow head contact in this leagure because we think that head contact is part of our hockey culture and we should just let you play the game, try not to hurt anybody but if you do don't worry about it we will print up some stickers with his number on it and pass them out and all will be well. It is nuts, anarchy rules. Yes, the refs have a thankless job. They are always wrong in somebody's eyes when they do or don't call something. If they do not want to consistantly call things then they should not be reffing. It should not matter where he/she is from.

[Winter is Coming]

Happy, as you can see "realistic" is different things to different people.

Just as penalty calling is different to different officials and different times of the game...

It's interesting to me the number of people that find officiating consistency issues, at a level of play many or all have never been involved in from a refereeing perspective.

I guess for some, it's impossible to imagine the game being different at ice level, as compared to spectating.

If you've ever coached or officiated, it's not that much of a stretch.

I know the game is different on the ice. It is also different between JV and Varsity and between programs. How ever, if you are a ref and you are reffing then you need to be as consistant as you can. You DO NOT have (or should'nt have) the option of putting the whistle away in OT. If you are reffing at the high school level then a high school game is a high school game and gets called the same way between North Shore and I-Falls and Edina and Tonka. As a ref you are agreeing to ref a game following rules that are set out. I am pretty sure that there is not a different rule book printed for northern hockey and cities hockey. The same rule book is handed to a ref from Edina, Worthington and I-Falls and he agrees to ref according to those rules. That is consistancy. Also during the game unless the refs are so out of shape and such rapidly failing eye sight that they can't do their job for the entire game then a trip is a trip is a trip.

[inthestands]

Winter, step back and take a breath. This is one of those situations where we will have to agree to disagree.

There's not enough space to discuss the differences in hockey philosophy.

[The Next One]

It is tough. Not only between coaches but between regions as well. Go to the range and watch a game and go down to the cities and watch a game. The range folks call cities hockey girls hockey based on how it is played. There has to be some sort of long running method to score these refs to keep them consistant and within the rules.

How about getting USHL refs or NAHL refs or somebody like that? Maybe what needs to happen is to bring in refs from the college ranks or something like that. Sure it would cost a little bit more (maybe a lot more who knows) but the games would be consistent and called within the rules. It would also get rid of those biases that are developed over the season and over the years as the current high school refs continue to ref the same teams over and over.

Just a thought.

I think that may be part of the problem. I know some of the guys that did State do college and probably juniors. So maybe they do not do enough HS games to have a good feel for the HS game.

[blindref]

Well done Net!

[almostashappy]

Well done Net!

Well done indeed.

Now that the season is over, could I entice either of you (or any other lurking officials) to offer some thoughts on how the “No player shall deliver a check to an unsuspecting and vulnerable player” rule played out this year? Or how you think that any of the new rule changes affected the high school game (for better or worse)?

Just don't talk about Rule 6-42-1 and 2...it's still too early for karl.

[Club Level]

Thank you Net Presence. This is really good and interesting information.
All officating points are well taken. Sensable. And realistic. I will go to your post before every state hockey tourney from now on to tune my expectations from your words.
As the the State Hockey Tourney wanes. One reflects on this amazing opprotunity for our student atheletes. Thanks to all officails, coaches, parents, the Mshsl, and fans for all they do to make this a world class event.

[Club Level]

In the semi final game between. Stillwater and Wayata not one penalty called. Coaches and players did a good job of staying under control because they new that refs were out for a nice skate. It was refreshing to see that the whistles were not broken in the Grand Rapids Eden Prairie game. This was a good job because it allowed power plays to be part of the game. No complaining. This is a great thread. Just wanted to revisit before I he big games today.

[The Next One]

Anybody think that bemidji iced the puck right before the rapids goal in ot?
Looks like icing to me. Rapids d is making effort to play it, when he sees he can't he changes his skating angle. Then icing is waved off. The no icing call keeps tired bemidji players on the ice.

[blueblood]

Nextone: there is no rule in HS hockey regarding icing and inability to change lines.

Next question....

[Logiiii]

Nextone: there is no rule in HS hockey regarding icing and inability to change lines.

Next question....

Are you that Stillwater fan that had obviously never been to a hockey game before in your life that was behind me yesterday?

[blueblood]

No, not from My Little Ponyville....

Next question.

[zamboniexhaustinhaler]

Holy Dead Thread Resurrection Batman !

[The Next One]

Nextone: there is no rule in HS hockey regarding icing and inability to change lines.

Next question....

I am well aware of that. That should have been an icing call on bemidji right before goal. Play blown dead, bemidji changes lines. Result was no whistle, stretch pass, Adams walks around tired D, game over.

[Mite-dad]

Seemed to me the whistles were swallowed in all games up until the final and then they called it tight. Confusing.

[zamboniexhaustinhaler]

Seemed to me the whistles were swallowed in all games up until the final and then they called it tight. Confusing.

Officiating is one of the things my non-hockey friends laugh about regarding hockey; "What do you mean, they call things one way during the regular season, another in ot, playoffs, etc. ?"

Plus, the discretion/gray areas given to officials to call/not call this and that, whereas other sports are much more black/white.

[meridian90]

Seemed to me the whistles were swallowed in all games up until the final and then they called it tight. Confusing.

Officiating is one of the things my non-hockey friends laugh about regarding hockey; "What do you mean, they call things one way during the regular season, another in ot, playoffs, etc. ?"

Plus, the discretion/gray areas given to officials to call/not call this and that, whereas other sports are much more black/white.

Because basketball fouls are such an exact science? or balls and strikes? or fouls in soccer? Every game has reason to question officials. It's the human element and part of what makes sports, sports. You can debate them.

[zamboniexhaustinhaler]

Seemed to me the whistles were swallowed in all games up until the final and then they called it tight. Confusing.

Officiating is one of the things my non-hockey friends laugh about regarding hockey; "What do you mean, they call things one way during the regular season, another in ot, playoffs, etc. ?"

Plus, the discretion/gray areas given to officials to call/not call this and that, whereas other sports are much more black/white.

Because basketball fouls are such an exact science? or balls and strikes? or fouls in soccer? Every game has reason to question officials. It's the human element and part of what makes sports, sports. You can debate them.

<shrug> I agree with a lot they say, especially the ot/playoff part.

At least the examples you list, are that way all the time, not just part of the time.

Also, not sure I would consider how basketball/soccer do things, as a ringing endorsement as to how hockey is called

[Northern Ref]

This thread has been comical to read through. I appreciate it.

As for officiating, I have done this for 15 years at the youth level and 5 at the High School level. Before officiating, I played sports believe it or not. When I played, coaches told me that there is a human element to the sports and that you should expect to get about 3 calls per game to not go your way. EVERY sport has grey area that you cannot account for. It gets down to how the official saw the play or the angle that he/she had to make the call and then using discretion to make the call or not make the call.

Its funny that people bring up not calling penalties late in the period or overtime. I have plenty of games where I call a penalty late and get bombarded with lines of, "put your whistle away." Don't mind that the kid got two handed across the hands which lost him a potential scoring chance. I had a memorable one this year with a 350+ pound Canadian waiting for me and my partner to get off the ice so we can be little us for how we called the game.

You quickly realize many people in the stands, and even some coaches at the younger levels, are yelling because everyone else is and they think it is something they are suppose to do. When I hear everyone in the stands yell for a hand pass that was made and completed in the D zone, hint this is legal, everyone starts to lose credibility. Or you get a coach that thinks a kid is offsides when one foot is in the attacking zone as the puck is being brought in.

The problems stem from youth hockey, with the biggest problem being that coaches don't even know rules. How are parents suppose to know them if coaches do not even? The only person that actually gets a rule book sent to them, the ref, gets yelled at constantly at games because these people do not even know the rules. (Spoiler alert, USA hockey has a free online rulebook that anyone can use).

I could rant for awhile but it isn't the point. The game has a human element to it and I can tell you I have missed calls. The biggest thing is the safety of the players for me and I strive to keep that at all times. Some of you may think that little Johnny is going to get hurt from a love tap to the pad, but most likely he will live to play another day.

The Next One, your logic is off on the icing play. I did not see the play you are talking about but based on what you said, the GR player is attempting to play the puck but when he sees he can't he changes his skating angle? Just from how you are talking about it, I would have waved it off too.

I can't find the person who said that the officials should be fired if they cannot make calls, but man it was a good laugh. You can say goodbye to HS hockey in MN if that is the case because we are already short officials. Someone else has pointed it out, but over half of all new officials are not lasting into their second season of officiating. This is a MAJOR problem as many of them are young officials who are doing squirt games or lower. If they are getting harassed that much during squirt games that they do not want to ref anymore, there needs to be some evaluating going on of coaches at the younger level.

[The Next One]

Call those plays icing and you will get yelled at less by 350+ lbs dads. Kid is making the effort, he can't get to puck, changes to chase it down ice. No grey area in icings and offsides. I saw plenty missed in the state tourney. Would post video of play but my limited tech skills got me.