Fixing Section Seeding?

[karl(east)]

Blog post inspired by the fallout over the 7AA and 8AA seeding processes: https://apatientcycle.com/2017/02/18/th ... g-process/

[MNHockeyFan]

Blog post inspired by the fallout over the 7AA and 8AA seeding processes: https://apatientcycle.com/2017/02/18/th ... g-process/

"Mandate that all teams within a section play each other once in a game that contributes to section standings."
Great idea.

[mulefarm]

Would this be just for hockey or all sports? So a team like ER would have to drop conference games to play section teams? If they are going to be important, what time of the year should they be played. Would a win at Thanksgiving be as important as a Feb. win? It sounds easy and practical, but I'm not sure if it would really solve any of the controversy.

[GoldenBear69]

I don't think you need an algorithm ... just mandate that each team play each section opponent a minimum of 1 game that contributes to section standings:

Play 1x = game worth 4 pts
Play 2x = games worth 2 pts each

Most youth hockey districts have been doing it for ... well ... years.

[redtundra]

Personally I don't know why they don't do high school like Bantam AA. Take the top 24 or 32 teams, seed into 4 regions however you like, and top 2 from each region go to state. Fair. Will get most of top teams to state. Doesn't favor regionalism. And there is no travel argument (state is same size for Bantams and high schools...)

[mulefarm]

Personally I don't know why they don't do high school like Bantam AA. Take the top 24 or 32 teams, seed into 4 regions however you like, and top 2 from each region go to state. Fair. Will get most of top teams to state. Doesn't favor regionalism. And there is no travel argument (state is same size for Bantams and high schools...)

Do they just seed, or are there district playoffs? Who seeds, coaches or?

[redtundra]

There are no districts in Bantam AA. Seeding could be by any body you choose. I believe on Bantams they seed top 2 only in each of 4 regions so top 8 teams, and they try to seed 1 v. 8, 2 v. 7, etc. Then they plug in the remaining teams to fill the regions. But you could seed however you want. You could use a computer combined with big shots in a room. Whatever. Think NCAA hoops on seeding. You will always have complaints, but it takes coaches in a room out of the picture completely.

[karl(east)]

Would this be just for hockey or all sports? So a team like ER would have to drop conference games to play section teams? If they are going to be important, what time of the year should they be played. Would a win at Thanksgiving be as important as a Feb. win? It sounds easy and practical, but I'm not sure if it would really solve any of the controversy.

Any other sport that wants to do it could do it, but I'm thinking just about hockey. Football has set the precedent of setting up playoff structures unique to the sport, so there's no reason it has to apply to anything else if we don't want it to.

The games can be played whenever teams want to play them, they just have to play them. Sure, there may be injuries, momentum, etc. etc. But I don't think that's an issue. Does anyone question the legitimacy of the NCHC champion because St. Cloud had a couple of injuries back in December, or because UMD's games against North Dakota came too early in the season? As long as you have clear standings and a point-based system, no one has any right to complain. It removes all subjectivity. If you want to show that the regular season result was a fluke, go prove it in the playoffs.

Agree that 2-point games for those who play twice and 4-point games for those who play once is another easy way to allow for multiple games within a section.

I'd also add that this doesn't necessarily mean that conferences have to die. If a group of teams wants to go on playing each other twice a year and give themselves a banner at the end of it, I don't see why they can't do that. They just have to get the section games in, too.

And while there are other ideas that may or not make section playoffs better (like the Bantams example), this works very comfortably with the existing structure. It would not be at all hard to implement.

[elliott70]

Personally I don't know why they don't do high school like Bantam AA. Take the top 24 or 32 teams, seed into 4 regions however you like, and top 2 from each region go to state. Fair. Will get most of top teams to state. Doesn't favor regionalism. And there is no travel argument (state is same size for Bantams and high schools...)

Youth only does this for AA in metro.

[GoldenBear69]

Would this be just for hockey or all sports? So a team like ER would have to drop conference games to play section teams? If they are going to be important, what time of the year should they be played. Would a win at Thanksgiving be as important as a Feb. win? It sounds easy and practical, but I'm not sure if it would really solve any of the controversy.

Any other sport that wants to do it could do it, but I'm thinking just about hockey. Football has set the precedent of setting up playoff structures unique to the sport, so there's no reason it has to apply to anything else if we don't want it to.

The games can be played whenever teams want to play them, they just have to play them. Sure, there may be injuries, momentum, etc. etc. But I don't think that's an issue. Does anyone question the legitimacy of the NCHC champion because St. Cloud had a couple of injuries back in December, or because UMD's games against North Dakota came too early in the season? As long as you have clear standings and a point-based system, no one has any right to complain. It removes all subjectivity. If you want to show that the regular season result was a fluke, go prove it in the playoffs.

Agree that 2-point games for those who play twice and 4-point games for those who play once is another easy way to allow for multiple games within a section.

I'd also add that this doesn't necessarily mean that conferences have to die. If a group of teams wants to go on playing each other twice a year and give themselves a banner at the end of it, I don't see why they can't do that. They just have to get the section games in, too.

And while there are other ideas that may or not make section playoffs better (like the Bantams example), this works very comfortably with the existing structure. It would not be at all hard to implement.

[mulefarm]

There are no districts in Bantam AA. Seeding could be by any body you choose. I believe on Bantams they seed top 2 only in each of 4 regions so top 8 teams, and they try to seed 1 v. 8, 2 v. 7, etc. Then they plug in the remaining teams to fill the regions. But you could seed however you want. You could use a computer combined with big shots in a room. Whatever. Think NCAA hoops on seeding. You will always have complaints, but it takes coaches in a room out of the picture completely.

Been awhile since I've been around youth hockey. How many AA teams are there? How many don't get to play in playoffs?

[redtundra]

Personally I don't know why they don't do high school like Bantam AA. Take the top 24 or 32 teams, seed into 4 regions however you like, and top 2 from each region go to state. Fair. Will get most of top teams to state. Doesn't favor regionalism. And there is no travel argument (state is same size for Bantams and high schools...)

Youth only does this for AA in metro.

Are you sure Elliott? I know when my son played Bantams they handled it like this for the whole state. Hermantown and GR came out of the region that was more northerly.

[redtundra]

There are no districts in Bantam AA. Seeding could be by any body you choose. I believe on Bantams they seed top 2 only in each of 4 regions so top 8 teams, and they try to seed 1 v. 8, 2 v. 7, etc. Then they plug in the remaining teams to fill the regions. But you could seed however you want. You could use a computer combined with big shots in a room. Whatever. Think NCAA hoops on seeding. You will always have complaints, but it takes coaches in a room out of the picture completely.

Been awhile since I've been around youth hockey. How many AA teams are there? How many don't get to play in playoffs?

Again any teams out of top 24 or 32 would not get into the playoffs. But as you look at it now, a top 1 or 2 Section team will win a quarter final by 10... Not meaningful at all.

[mulefarm]

We have to remember the MSHSL set a limit on the number of scrimmages and has been voting down the idea of going to 20 min periods. Would playing section opponents be for both A and AA, along with boys and girls? From my past experiences with Schools, you don't have very many "hockey people" in charge! If it wasn't for the money hockey brings in, many of them would hope hockey would go away. There are many good ideas being brought up, but will take a lot of hard work and time for changes to be made.

[elliott70]

Personally I don't know why they don't do high school like Bantam AA. Take the top 24 or 32 teams, seed into 4 regions however you like, and top 2 from each region go to state. Fair. Will get most of top teams to state. Doesn't favor regionalism. And there is no travel argument (state is same size for Bantams and high schools...)

Youth only does this for AA in metro.

Are you sure Elliott? I know when my son played Bantams they handled it like this for the whole state. Hermantown and GR came out of the region that was more northerly.

No, its never been that way for the whole state.
The north districts have play-offs, where applicable, and each district sends 2 teams to the North regions. If a district does not have two AA teams, they give one up to other districts. This year D12 has one team (Grand Rapids) they give up their spot to District 11 (Duluth area).

The metro has changed their process this year to handle complaints from the previous years but is similar to how it has been but a guarantee each district is represented. (I did not put it to memory because it has no effect on me.)

And it is not seeded. Placed into brackets by pre-determined setting (ex D16 #1 plays D11 #3; D15 #1 plays D11 #2)

[goldy313]

The problem with mandating games is does a Lakeville North vs Dodge County game do anyone in good? Lakeville North, a top 10 team, would have to basically give up their entire non conference schedule to play teams ranked in the bottom third in the state. It is doubtful any of those games would even be competitive, which is why they mutually decided to discontinue them a few years ago.

[karl(east)]

The problem with mandating games is does a Lakeville North vs Dodge County game do anyone in good? Lakeville North, a top 10 team, would have to basically give up their entire non conference schedule to play teams ranked in the bottom third in the state. It is doubtful any of those games would even be competitive, which is why they mutually decided to discontinue them a few years ago.

No, those aren't particularly fun...but it's just one game, and reality is that most good teams already play a few games like that in their conferences or as part of local rivalries. I agree this would probably be ugliest in 1AA, where the Lakevilles are so far ahead of the field, and in some of the Class A sections, where we'd have to endure Hermantown vs. Ely.

Alternatively, if there's mutual agreement that no good will come out of playing a game, I suppose you could just arrange it so that Dodge County "forfeits" that section game to Lakeville North; LN would get the win in the standings, and they could both go schedule someone else using that free game.

[ndirishfighting]

Where do you see and did you hear there are no districts for AA Bantams?
Every district I have clicked on has a district tournament for each level.

Who cares if Lakeville North and other power teams have to play some scrub team at the bottom of there district. It is not gonna kill them to play everyone in there district at least once. It just helps and justifies where they sit in there district and makes everything that much easier come playoffs.
So at the most you play 10-12 district games and that leaves a lot of games against whom ever you would like to play at your own risk.

As for High School that's a complete other story. Most coaches do the scheduling with the athletic director. Play every section team once/conference and other games are at your own risk.
I think the problem in high school is the MSHSL and how they draw there stupid section lines and how they decide who is A and AA.
As stated before and in other posts it all about The Benjamins $$$$$$$$!

[goldy313]

If you are Dodge County it is one game, if you are Lakeville North though it is 5 games, 20% of your games aren't going be competitive. I think it would be best to leave it up to each region to determine how they seed or schedule.

A clarification on football, districts were put in place to make sure every team played 8 games in 8 weeks. Districts and sections are, in many cases, entirely different, i.e. section 1AAAA has six schools from 3 different districts, so does 2 AAAAA. Since you only play schools in your district during the regular season there is a huge unknown come playoffs because there are so few intrasection games.

[karl(east)]

Out of curiosity, here are 7AA and 8AA using a point system. 4-point games if teams played once, 2-point games if they played twice, and the Bemidji/Brainerd 3rd meeting in a tournament was thrown out. Not everyone plays, so I assumed wins for the higher-seeded teams...I don't think that's at all controversial in 7AA, might mess things up in 8AA.

7AA
1. ER - 32
2. DE - 28
3. CEC - 22
4. GR - 20
5. And - 16
6. DM - 12
7. St. Fr - 6 (won head-to-head vs. FL)
8. FL - 6
9. C-I - 2 (didn't play Flake; if they had and beat them, FL would be #9 and we'd need advanced tiebreakers for 7/8.)

8AA
1. MHD - 22
2. Bmji - 20 (6 pts. vs other teams with 20)
3. STMA - 20 (4 pts. vs other teams with 20)
4. Ros - 20 (2 pts. vs other temas with 20)
5. Brnd - 15
6. Buff - 8
7. St. C - 4
8. Rog - 2

Bemidji's 20 wouldn't be in question, as they played everyone; STMA or Roseau could fall if they dropped points to Brainerd or Buffalo, respectively.

[mulefarm]

Interesting! Except for Bemidji, it seems the coaches got it right?

[karl(east)]

Interesting! Except for Bemidji, it seems the coaches got it right?

According to this logic, at the very least, yes.

Will try to do this for some of the other sections after seeds come out, though I'm about to head out of town and will be MIA for the next 24 hours. (Yes, this means rankings will be late, but I want all the seeds out when I do them anyway, so no great loss.)

[kniven]

Out of curiosity, here are 7AA and 8AA using a point system. 4-point games if teams played once, 2-point games if they played twice, and the Bemidji/Brainerd 3rd meeting in a tournament was thrown out. Not everyone plays, so I assumed wins for the higher-seeded teams...I don't think that's at all controversial in 7AA, might mess things up in 8AA.

7AA
1. ER - 32
2. DE - 28
3. CEC - 22
4. GR - 20
5. And - 16
6. DM - 12
7. St. Fr - 6 (won head-to-head vs. FL)
8. FL - 6
9. C-I - 2 (didn't play Flake; if they had and beat them, FL would be #9 and we'd need advanced tiebreakers for 7/8.)

8AA
1. MHD - 22
2. Bmji - 20 (6 pts. vs other teams with 20)
3. STMA - 20 (4 pts. vs other teams with 20)
4. Ros - 20 (2 pts. vs other temas with 20)
5. Brnd - 15
6. Buff - 8
7. St. C - 4
8. Rog - 2

Bemidji's 20 wouldn't be in question, as they played everyone; STMA or Roseau could fall if they dropped points to Brainerd or Buffalo, respectively.

Interesting. I do think conferences in high school hockey are for the birds! Lake Superior conference? Who gives a rats nest about it. I sure don't. I'm 100# focused on the 7AA section. Looking at teams in the state. I don't give a Joe Cocker song what conference their in. Really. It's all about sections in high school hockey. And if anybody else brings up how high school football does it......are you kidding me! Go live in Florida or Texas. This is Minnesota my brother......

[green4]

If you are Dodge County it is one game, if you are Lakeville North though it is 5 games, 20% of your games aren't going be competitive. I think it would be best to leave it up to each region to determine how they seed or schedule.

A clarification on football, districts were put in place to make sure every team played 8 games in 8 weeks. Districts and sections are, in many cases, entirely different, i.e. section 1AAAA has six schools from 3 different districts, so does 2 AAAAA. Since you only play schools in your district during the regular season there is a huge unknown come playoffs because there are so few intrasection games.

Lol remember when you said 1AA was better than 8AA, that narrative seems to have changed in this thread

[redtundra]

[quote="ndirishfighting"]Where do you see and did you hear there are no districts for AA Bantams?
Every district I have clicked on has a district tournament for each level.

Then this has changed. When my son played Bantam AA a couple years ago, they went from the regular season right to regions.. No district tournament. May have changed. I liked it at the time because it seemed to get to the games that mattered faster.