Games Tuesday 12-19-17

[ryguyMN]

Poor Jefferson. My how the mighty have fallen.

I used to hate Jefferson and Kennedy with a passion during the single class days, since they dominated Section 5 and one of them took us out of the playoffs nearly every single year. Now it just feels depressing seeing both Bloomington teams struggling this badly.

It does hurt! Richfield can't even field a team and Bloomington, with its enormous population, can't generate a reasonable squad. You'd figure they would, at least, put up a fight with Edina and E.P. right there on the boarder.

It's an interesting question on why Jefferson can't be more competitive. Bloomington's population is aging (especially on the eastern, older "Kennedy" side) as it's demographics are skewed towards the baby boomers that spurred the city's growth, but 2010 census data suggests young families are calling Bloomington home with a spike in the age group 25-29. How that age bracket, or children from that age bracket, is divided between the two schools is anyone's guess. I believe enrollment is around 1,600 at Jefferson, with approximately 1,300 at Kennedy.

https://www.bloomingtonmn.gov/sites/def ... Cohort.pdf

[green4]

I used to hate Jefferson and Kennedy with a passion during the single class days, since they dominated Section 5 and one of them took us out of the playoffs nearly every single year. Now it just feels depressing seeing both Bloomington teams struggling this badly.

It does hurt! Richfield can't even field a team and Bloomington, with its enormous population, can't generate a reasonable squad. You'd figure they would, at least, put up a fight with Edina and E.P. right there on the boarder.

It's an interesting question on why Jefferson can't be more competitive. Bloomington's population is aging (especially on the eastern, older "Kennedy" side) as it's demographics are skewed towards the baby boomers that spurred the city's growth, but 2010 census data suggests young families are calling Bloomington home with a spike in the age group 25-29. How that age bracket, or children from that age bracket, is divided between the two schools is anyone's guess. I believe enrollment is around 1,600 at Jefferson, with approximately 1,300 at Kennedy.

https://www.bloomingtonmn.gov/sites/def ... Cohort.pdf

The same thing that is going on in Richfield is happening on the East side of Bloomington, and it has already begun to happen in Burnsville too. Minneapolis housing is being updated and restored, new housing is being built in places like Lakeville, Chanhassen etc. That leaves these older suburbs with the least desirable housing, making it quite affordable. I don't think it is a mystery what is occurring in East bloomington and then translating it to their hockey team. The bloomington gov't site you linked has great data, and it shows east bloomington is becoming more diverse, has more foreign born residents, lower median income and more single family households. We all know hockey is expensive and dominantly played by white people.

Even though we see a spike in 25-29 year olds in Bloomington, that is mostly coming from the East side https://www.bloomingtonmn.gov/sites/def ... geCity.pdf
https://www.bloomingtonmn.gov/sites/def ... Change.pdf
(The area that is so young in West Bloomington are rental homes https://www.bloomingtonmn.gov/sites/def ... tsCity.pdf)

West Bloomington is also somewhat expensive, but the housing is also still pretty old in comparison to Prior Lake and Maple Grove, so why buy an old expensive house when I can buy a new one that is environmentally efficient saving me money when I heat my big house?
Bloomington Schools are not so amazing where I feel like I have to have my kid enroll. There is not much of a draw to West Bloomington anymore and you are starting to see people leave. https://www.bloomingtonmn.gov/sites/def ... geCity.pdf

While West Bloomington loses population, there are spots that are becoming more affordable and more diverse.

https://intranet.bloomington.k12.mn.us/ ... 0final.pdf

This here is a report from October 2017 containing the demographics from all the public bloomington schools.

From 2008-2009 Jefferson was 81% white, in 2017 it is 69% white. Free and reduced lunch rates have jumped from 14% to 20%

The middle schools all have higher percentages than that, and besides one Elementary school, they are all higher in percentage than the middle schools.

[SCBlueLiner]

If I am coach or AD at either of the Bloomington schools I am openly recruiting any Edina, EP, or any other player who doesn't make the cut/doesn't believe they can make the cut at their school to open enroll. Yes, I am attending a lot of Bantam games and camps and openly recruiting. It gives those players an opportunity to play HS hockey, so both sides benefit.

I'd have no problem with that if that is what it takes to keep the programs at those schools alive and kicking. Same thing for every other program in the city that is struggling.

[elliott70]

Green, nice job of providing some info on Bloomington's.

A few years ago while at a MH board meeting the question was asked what can MH do to help with recruiting and retention in each district.

For us up north it was simple, put up a factory, distribution center or some other major employer.
Our communities that have a solid base of employment do fine, Roseau, Warroad, Thief River Falls, East Grand and Bemidji.
EGF, TRF and Bemidji who have a larger population and economic base have more potential. Warroad and Roseau have tradition but how long and how high that can carry a youth program and thus a HS program is difficult to measure.

And look at the range. Once a powerhouse, THE home of high school hockey...
Glory Days.

[yesiplayedhockey]

Is it time for Kennedy and Jefferson to combine resources when it comes to sports like hockey? I know many hate change and Jefferson's tradition is proud but I hate seeing such a great program struggle like this.

Hockey numbers are not going up folks. And it's definitely not getting any cheaper. It's becoming a sport that mainly the rich can afford. As the burbs expand outward, inter cities like Bloomington will suffer even more.

I'd also like to see Minnesota hockey (and USA hockey) get involved. Focus on building solutions to make this sport more affordable for everyone. Their "multi sport" pitch isn't working. Parents are still pushing their kids to play hockey year around. Heck Minnesota hockey is now pimping spring and fall Tier 1 leagues harder than ever. The result. Older metro communities with families on limited income are just saying no to this great sport. Let's not lose another town like Richfield. Let's work on solutions now.

[MNHockeyFan]

If I am coach or AD at either of the Bloomington schools I am openly recruiting any Edina, EP, or any other player who doesn't make the cut/doesn't believe they can make the cut at their school to open enroll.

Good thing you are not the coach or AD!

[WarmUpTheBus]

Is it time for Kennedy and Jefferson to combine resources when it comes to sports like hockey? I know many hate change and Jefferson's tradition is proud but I hate seeing such a great program struggle like this.

Hockey numbers are not going up folks. And it's definitely not getting any cheaper. It's becoming a sport that mainly the rich can afford. As the burbs expand outward, inter cities like Bloomington will suffer even more.

I'd also like to see Minnesota hockey (and USA hockey) get involved. Focus on building solutions to make this sport more affordable for everyone. Their "multi sport" pitch isn't working. Parents are still pushing their kids to play hockey year around. Heck Minnesota hockey is now pimping spring and fall Tier 1 leagues harder than ever. The result. Older metro communities with families on limited income are just saying no to this great sport. Let's not lose another town like Richfield. Let's work on solutions now.

The Jefferson teams of the recent past have had players who live on the east side of town but played in the Jefferson youth and high school program. The idea of combining the two programs is pushed back hardest by the Kennedy youth and high school programs because they want to provide as much opportunity as possible for their own kids .

[SCBlueLiner]

If I am coach or AD at either of the Bloomington schools I am openly recruiting any Edina, EP, or any other player who doesn't make the cut/doesn't believe they can make the cut at their school to open enroll.

Good thing you are not the coach or AD!

Why? The private schools make no bones about it, even some publics do it. It's the wide open dirty secret everybody knows about but doesn't talk about. Recruiting in high school sports is mainstream now.

At least in the case of some of these schools I would be doing it for a noble reason, to save the sport at the school. We're not talking about state championships here, we're talking about survival.

[SCBlueLiner]

I'll go one step further. I think the state high school association should loosen transfer policies into these schools that are at risk of losing their programs. I'm a player that gets cut from Edina I should be able to open enroll and play immediately at Jefferson if I choose to do so. Helps both parties, Jefferson needs players, the player wants to continue playing and is willing to transfer schools to do so.

There isn't a problem with the number of players in the metro, the problem is in the distribution of players.

[elliott70]

I'll go one step further. I think the state high school association should loosen transfer policies into these schools that are at risk of losing their programs. I'm a player that gets cut from Edina I should be able to open enroll and play immediately at Jefferson if I choose to do so. Helps both parties, Jefferson needs players, the player wants to continue playing and is willing to transfer schools to do so.

There isn't a problem with the number of players in the metro, the problem is in the distribution of players.

Old man Potter in Its a Wonderful Life.

"I'll go one step further. I say Peter Bailey was the building and loan."
Or something like that.
But SC on a hockey note - times are a changing. Somalians don't play hockey, Mexicans don't, most poor kids don't.
(Insert whatever group of people you wish)
At least not yet. Is there way to change that? Not sure. I the meantime if a kid can't play at school A let 'em transfer to school B. It is happening a lot anyway in the other direction.

[SCBlueLiner]

LOL. Love that movie. Have it ready to go to watch this weekend and will most certainly be watching it on Christmas Eve on NBC.

You understand what I am saying. Top players are transferring and consolidating at schools for hockey purposes. What's wrong with players who are displaced and cut transferring out to schools in need of players? It helps both parties, and the goal isn't to win, it's to simply participate & compete. Isn't that what we want high school to be about?

As far as demographics go, it will take a generation for the immigrant population to pick up the game, if they do at all. It is an endeavor worth pursuing though. Have to keep recruiting.

[yesiplayedhockey]

I would go the other way (yes I know it's not ever going to happen but...)

Eliminate the transfer rule altogether. Play in your city or don't play...Build these communities back up instead of letting parents...I mean kids, jump from town to town. Unhappy parents are never happy. And nothing breaks down an association more than some out of town kid taking a jersey away from one of their own.

Bottom line: Minnesota hockey has to figure out a way to grow the sport. Right now the focus is on taking those with money and throwing more options at them (hockey schools, tier 1, this tournament, that tournament etc etc)

If we want more kids playing hockey we must make it more affordable. We must lesson the desire for parents to jump ship on their town every time little johnny doesn't make the best team. We must figure out way so kids aren't playing 3,4,5 games for every one practice and we need to somehow build a system that limits these kids playing hockey 7 days a week 365 days a year. It's obvious it can't be self policed (at the parent level or the association level) . Minnesota hockey needs to step in and help solve these issues.

If we don't...expect the numbers to continue to drop and expect these great hockey towns to lose the sport or simply never be able to compete again.

Hockey needs towns like Minneapolis, Richfield and Bloomington. I don't think letting a 12th grader cut from the Edina Varsity team transfer to Bloomington is the best answer. That's just putting a band-aid on a hemorrhage. I think a better long term solution is Minnesota hockey focusing on helping these town like Bloomington grow/survive

[elliott70]

I would go the other way (yes I know it's not ever going to happen but...)

Eliminate the transfer rule altogether. Play in your city or don't play...Build these communities back up instead of letting parents...I mean kids, jump from town to town. Unhappy parents are never happy. And nothing breaks down an association more than some out of town kid taking a jersey away from one of their own.

Bottom line: Minnesota hockey has to figure out a way to grow the sport. Right now the focus is on taking those with money and throwing more options at them (hockey schools, tier 1, this tournament, that tournament etc etc)

If we want more kids playing hockey we must make it more affordable. We must lesson the desire for parents to jump ship on their town every time little johnny doesn't make the best team. We must figure out way so kids aren't playing 3,4,5 games for every one practice and we need to somehow build a system that limits these kids playing hockey 7 days a week 365 days a year. It's obvious it can't be self policed (at the parent level or the association level) . Minnesota hockey needs to step in and help solve these issues.

If we don't...expect the numbers to continue to drop and expect these great hockey towns to lose the sport or simply never be able to compete again.

Hockey needs towns like Minneapolis, Richfield and Bloomington. I don't think letting a 12th grader cut from the Edina Varsity team transfer to Bloomington is the best answer. That's just putting a band-aid on a hemorrhage. I think a better long term solution is Minnesota hockey focusing on helping these town like Bloomington grow/survive

"If I could turn back time...."
Cher, I believe, from about 30? years ago.

[SCBlueLiner]

1989 there Elliot. 1989.

[SCBlueLiner]

I would go the other way (yes I know it's not ever going to happen but...)

Eliminate the transfer rule altogether. Play in your city or don't play...Build these communities back up instead of letting parents...I mean kids, jump from town to town. Unhappy parents are never happy. And nothing breaks down an association more than some out of town kid taking a jersey away from one of their own.

Bottom line: Minnesota hockey has to figure out a way to grow the sport. Right now the focus is on taking those with money and throwing more options at them (hockey schools, tier 1, this tournament, that tournament etc etc)

If we want more kids playing hockey we must make it more affordable. We must lesson the desire for parents to jump ship on their town every time little johnny doesn't make the best team. We must figure out way so kids aren't playing 3,4,5 games for every one practice and we need to somehow build a system that limits these kids playing hockey 7 days a week 365 days a year. It's obvious it can't be self policed (at the parent level or the association level) . Minnesota hockey needs to step in and help solve these issues.

If we don't...expect the numbers to continue to drop and expect these great hockey towns to lose the sport or simply never be able to compete again.

Hockey needs towns like Minneapolis, Richfield and Bloomington. I don't think letting a 12th grader cut from the Edina Varsity team transfer to Bloomington is the best answer. That's just putting a band-aid on a hemorrhage. I think a better long term solution is Minnesota hockey focusing on helping these town like Bloomington grow/survive

I agree with this as a long-term solution and should be the ultimate goal, but in the short run you need to keep that program afloat, viable, and somewhat competitive so the younger players in the association have something to aspire to and want to stay in the game.

[elliott70]

1989 there Elliot. 1989.

okay 28 years, thanks.

[yesiplayedhockey]

blueliner

my question on this open enrollment solution would be how do you see it working?

Would the top teams like Edina, Tonka, Wayzata and EP be asked to have their tryouts first? Then the kids cut from those teams would then go over and try out for the Bloomington, Chaska's and Shakopees?

Since HS tryouts all happen at the same time, I just see issues with how it would work once "teams get picked". I can't imagine week one into a HS practice a bloomington coach taking a jersey away from a kid he just picked and tossing it over to some kid from Edina.

I get that "open enrollment" will never be eliminated no matter how much it would make life easier but having open enrollment during the season may cause more trouble then the good intentions it was meant out to be. I get the logic "keeping kids in hockey" but I'm just worried this may really create a can of mess for the coaches let alone the dynamics inside the locker room .

[SCBlueLiner]

blueliner

my question on this open enrollment solution would be how do you see it working?

Would the top teams like Edina, Tonka, Wayzata and EP be asked to have their tryouts first? Then the kids cut from those teams would then go over and try out for the Bloomington, Chaska's and Shakopees?

Since HS tryouts all happen at the same time, I just see issues with how it would work once "teams get picked". I can't imagine week one into a HS practice a bloomington coach taking a jersey away from a kid he just picked and tossing it over to some kid from Edina.

I get that "open enrollment" will never be eliminated no matter how much it would make life easier but having open enrollment during the season may cause more trouble then the good intentions it was meant out to be. I get the logic "keeping kids in hockey" but I'm just worried this may really create a can of mess for the coaches let alone the dynamics inside the locker room .

I wouldn't be in favor of that either.

I don't have all the answers, just saying that it might take some outside the box, unconventional thinking to distribute players from areas that have many to areas that have few.

How about this? Players that get cut from their high school go into a player pool. From this player pool, schools that are in need of players could draw those players and extend an offer to play on their team. Sort of like a draft. If the player accepts he stays at his/her home school but plays for the other school.

Example using the schools we've already talked about, a players gets cut from Edina. He wants to continue playing HS hockey so he enters the player pool. Richfield is in need of players because they don't have enough. Richfield could extend an offer to this player and he could join the team. The player still goes to Edina HS but plays for Richfield.

Just spitballing there.

[MNHockeyFan]

Example using the schools we've already talked about, a players gets cut from Edina. He wants to continue playing HS hockey so he enters the player pool. Richfield is in need of players because they don't have enough. Richfield could extend an offer to this player and he could join the team. The player still goes to Edina HS but plays for Richfield.

Sounds doable, and I think it's a good idea as long as there aren't any players that attend Richfield who want to play for Richfield are shut out, i.e. nobody at Richfield is dropped because an incoming kid from Edina (or any other school) is more talented.

[rainier2]

I think the argument could be made that the current climate of player movement today creates more parity in metro areas, at least.

Would a dynasty like 90's Jefferson be possible today? I believe all six of their defenseman on the 93 team went on to play D1--wouldn't at least the bottom two have transferred nowadays to get more playing time elsewhere?

Why suffer through a year on the 3rd line or 3rd D pair when you can easily jump to a different solid program and be a star right away?

This happened in Duluth when those 3-4 Hermantown youth players went to Marshall and played varsity when they still had bantam eligibility left. Again, why wait to work your way up there when you can get tons of ice time immediately at Marshall?

I think loyalty is more critical to outstate teams. It's harder to replace that top talent and that top talent will likely get a ton of ice time even as a freshman. A talented Hibbing kid transferred to Cloquet bantams, presumably to play for a "better" program. But with the all the talent that will be there next year, this kid is likely to get little ice time as a soph. Whereas if he had stayed, he would be playing a ton of varsity already, in all situations, which is something that players like Adam Johnson and Scott Perunovich used to their advantage in becoming excellent D1 players.

[TheMNhockey1]

blueliner

my question on this open enrollment solution would be how do you see it working?

Would the top teams like Edina, Tonka, Wayzata and EP be asked to have their tryouts first? Then the kids cut from those teams would then go over and try out for the Bloomington, Chaska's and Shakopees?

Since HS tryouts all happen at the same time, I just see issues with how it would work once "teams get picked". I can't imagine week one into a HS practice a bloomington coach taking a jersey away from a kid he just picked and tossing it over to some kid from Edina.

I get that "open enrollment" will never be eliminated no matter how much it would make life easier but having open enrollment during the season may cause more trouble then the good intentions it was meant out to be. I get the logic "keeping kids in hockey" but I'm just worried this may really create a can of mess for the coaches let alone the dynamics inside the locker room .

I wouldn't be in favor of that either.

I don't have all the answers, just saying that it might take some outside the box, unconventional thinking to distribute players from areas that have many to areas that have few.

How about this? Players that get cut from their high school go into a player pool. From this player pool, schools that are in need of players could draw those players and extend an offer to play on their team. Sort of like a draft. If the player accepts he stays at his/her home school but plays for the other school.

Example using the schools we've already talked about, a players gets cut from Edina. He wants to continue playing HS hockey so he enters the player pool. Richfield is in need of players because they don't have enough. Richfield could extend an offer to this player and he could join the team. The player still goes to Edina HS but plays for Richfield.

Just spitballing there.

I feel most kids in the cities would prefer to play jr gold rather than another school

[O-townClown]

Would a dynasty like 90's Jefferson be possible today? I believe all six of their defenseman on the 93 team went on to play D1--wouldn't at least the bottom two have transferred nowadays to get more playing time elsewhere?

Why suffer through a year on the 3rd line or 3rd D pair when you can easily jump to a different solid program and be a star right away?

More likely the top player would leave the Minnesota HS prematurely. As examples, Clayton Phillips is still HS age and will be playing for the Gophers in January rather than Edina HS. He's already been in the USHL. For forwards, Grant Silianoff is at Shattuck but played PW with the current Varsity players.

[rainier2]

Would a dynasty like 90's Jefferson be possible today? I believe all six of their defenseman on the 93 team went on to play D1--wouldn't at least the bottom two have transferred nowadays to get more playing time elsewhere?

Why suffer through a year on the 3rd line or 3rd D pair when you can easily jump to a different solid program and be a star right away?

More likely the top player would leave the Minnesota HS prematurely. As examples, Clayton Phillips is still HS age and will be playing for the Gophers in January rather than Edina HS. He's already been in the USHL. For forwards, Grant Silianoff is at Shattuck but played PW with the current Varsity players.

Possibly. Would Crowley have stayed after winning a title? I wonder, but we have the Tufte's and Mittlestadt's staying throughout HS.

[yesiplayedhockey]

I can't see a whole lot of value in taking a jr or senior cut from his high school team and asking him to relocate to another school just for hockey. If the kid is cut, the dream is most likely over and school should become the focus. Jr Gold has it's place for these kids.

With that, I have a funny feeling over the next few years more and more Tier 1 winter teams are going to creep it's way into Minnesota. The question will be. Will it have any success and draw the top kids out of HS hockey or will most of these top kids say no and this could this be another viable option for those kids cut?

Winter Tier one isn't going away. It's just getting started. I just hope most of the top kids politely say no and stay to play in the city they live in. Otherwise, it could get very ugly in our Minnesota hockey world if you have private schools and now tier 1's all promising brighter skies to those who bail on their city. It will become nothing more than a bidding war.