The Hermantown Thread

[hockey59]

So you're saying you'd welcome STA and all the other metro privates back to Class A with open arms? An STA-BSM Class A title game every season would be awesome!!!

Interesting. Hermantown did yelp a lot when STA was in A. The metro private’s could easily move back to A.

They sure as heck did which doubled down on the statewide loathing of the little carpetbagging team from the north.

Hermantown can do what they want...BUT the one thing they currently are not...and this will continue should they stay in Class a (after this season) is RESPECTED. Pretty much all the players from the top 30 or so AA teams in the STATE & all the parents of these players & fans of these teams...consider what HERMANTOWN is doing (SANDBAGGING) a complete & utter JOKE. But again, they can do what they want, it’s Hermantown’s players who are being robbed of the chance to play for the big prize in prime time in front of 19,000 fans.

[zooomx]

Here we go, here we go, here we go again...

Personally, I am very happy that Hermantown was still in Class A last year. They are the Yankees, who everyone wants to take down, and the boys from Alex did just that. It was one of the most entertaining take downs I have ever seen on ice.

For the hundredth time: Should they play up? Yup. Must they play up? Nope. This whole thing has put a huge target on their backs and just about every year someone knocks them out. I agree it does suck for the 7A schools, but I think HT will get knocked out in sections soon. Greenway has the players that, although they won't be favored, could definitely beat Hermantown in a one game situation. I highly doubt they will have another lengthy run of State Finals appearances, as there are just too many other good teams who have a good shot at beating them. Lastly, I wonder if this whole Hermantown topic actually increased interest in Class A hockey. It would seem a bit blah without their drama.

[hockey59]

Yeah...maybe STA, BSM, Holy Family, Hill Murray, Roseau, Blake...should all move back down to single a. However, it’s pretty clear THEY simply see the bigger picture of playing for the “real” State Title...and correspondingly have developed too much pride in their program to do so...

[kniven]

Yeah...maybe STA, BSM, Holy Family, Hill Murray, Roseau, Blake...should all move back down to single a. However, it’s pretty clear THEY simply see the bigger picture of playing for the “real” State Title...and correspondingly have developed too much pride in their program to do so...

Interesting.

[elliott70]

This just goes on and on, the same arguments by the same people (both sides) over and over again.

[kniven]

Hermantown is a single A school enrollment. Isn’t that true? How can a single A enrollment school compete with the 3000 enrollment metro or shattucks of the private metro schools I ask

[rainier2]

Hermantown is a single A school enrollment. Isn’t that true? How can a single A enrollment school compete with the 3000 enrollment metro or shattucks of the private metro schools I ask

By allowing and benefiting from open enrollment in the 2nd largest metro area in MN. Open enrollment in a metro area makes enrollment numbers meaningless.

[rainier2]

This just goes on and on, the same arguments by the same people (both sides) over and over again.

Yep, just as Hermantown playing AA in youth levels, having a AA-heavy regular season HS schedule, open enrollment influx and kicking butt over A competition goes on and on, over and over again.

[rainier2]

Last years Hermantown youth teams:

AA Bantams
Ranking: #8
Games vs 7A teams: 3
Games vs 7AA teams: 16
Games vs EP, Tonka, Edina, Wayzata: 6

AA Pee Wee
Ranking: #5
Games vs 7A teams: 0
Games vs 7AA teams: 12
Games vs EP, Tonka, Edina, Wayzata: 8

If these kids are good enough to play this type of schedule from the cradle to 9th grade, what happens to them once they turn 16? Why are these players punished with a demotion to 7A once they make the varsity team?

In just one 7A playoff run, these kids will play as many games vs 7A teams as they have played in their entire lives! Does that make sense?

And the ONLY time these kids will EVER play a Class A-only stretch is during a short, 18-day annual window in late Feb/early Mar, which, somehow, just happens to be the Class A playoffs. What a coincidence!!!!

[kniven]

So. Single A schools, enrollment size, that choose to opt up and play in AA. Their priority is not to win, because maybe they will have a chance every 7 to 10 years. Isn’t that the definition of crazy.

[rainier2]

So. Single A schools, enrollment size, that choose to opt up and play in AA. Their priority is not to win, because maybe they will have a chance every 7 to 10 years. Isn’t that the definition of crazy.

Over the last 11 years, Grand Rapids has an AA title, two 2nds, and a 3rd. Are they crazy to be in AA?

Hermantown beats GR more often than not, including the year GR won the AA title!!

Which of those two schools is the "crazy" one?

Your statement is yet another variation of the "If we can't beat everyone in AA all the time, then we shouldn't opt up" sentiment expressed by several Hermantown supporters over the years. Now that, my purple friend, is the definition of crazy.

[kniven]

I hear you, rain dude. I just looking at it from both sides. I just never loose the fact that those Hermantown kids are some great kids. They’ve got no choice in the matter. They just want to play hockey.

[northwoods oldtimer]

I hear you, rain dude. I just looking at it from both sides. I just never loose the fact that those Hermantown kids are some great kids. They’ve got no choice in the matter. They just want to play hockey.

Your motto "it's about the kids" is a nice sentiment. However the adult medalling of the sport on statewide basis is enough to gag on.

[rainier2]

I hear you, rain dude. I just looking at it from both sides. I just never loose the fact that those Hermantown kids are some great kids. They’ve got no choice in the matter. They just want to play hockey.

Your motto "it's about the kids" is a nice sentiment. However the adult medalling of the sport on statewide basis is enough to gag on.

Agreed, it is a nice sentiment, but it is also an unnecessary one. This thread is 12 pages long, and is just one of many long Hermantown-related threads. In all of these debates, I can't recall a single instance of anyone blaming the players or disparaging them in any way.

It is the adults that continue this farce. I'd bet my house that after playing AA teams all their lives, those kids would stay in AA in HS if given the choice.

[northwoods oldtimer]

I hear you, rain dude. I just looking at it from both sides. I just never loose the fact that those Hermantown kids are some great kids. They’ve got no choice in the matter. They just want to play hockey.

Your motto "it's about the kids" is a nice sentiment. However the adult medalling of the sport on statewide basis is enough to gag on.

Agreed, it is a nice sentiment, but it is also an unnecessary one. This thread is 12 pages long, and is just one of many long Hermantown-related threads. In all of these debates, I can't recall a single instance of anyone blaming the players or disparaging them in any way.

It is the adults that continue this farce. I'd bet my house that after playing AA teams all their lives, those kids would stay in AA in HS if given the choice.

You got that right rainier2

[O-townClown]

Rainier, your quantification of how few games against 7A communities they play as youth players is very much appreciated. Alarming. I've seen them play Edina. If it is beneath them to routinely schedule Virginia and Two Harbors as youth, why play them in HS?

I think an interesting question to ponder is over the past 10 years how many state tournaments, trophies, and championships would they have had at AA?

[Jeffy95]

Rainier, your quantification of how few games against 7A communities they play as youth players is very much appreciated. Alarming. I've seen them play Edina. If it is beneath them to routinely schedule Virginia and Two Harbors as youth, why play them in HS?

They want nothing to do with Class A Hockey at youth because obviously, they know that is not the right level for them. If they could find enough AA games, they wouldn't play many Class A opponents in High School either. They're usually about 65% AA games on the high school schedule.

They're not dumb. They know which level they belong at. It's a deliberate strategy. They improve and get a lot better by playing top competition their whole lives, and then get the automatic trip to the X by beating small towns that they've poached players from. The kid's keep flooding in from other programs and they get even better. Rinse, repeat. You have to admit it's clever and not a bad gig if you can get it.

[elliott70]

Hermantown plays in District 11 at youth hockey.

Section 7A has 4 teams within District 11,
1. Duluth plays a couple of teams at the A level and a couple at the AA level and B level. Denfeld would include some of these kids. Proctor plays at the A & B level (one team each).
2. Silver Bay and Two Harbors combine at the high school level but play B hockey at he youth level.
North Shore combines the Silver Bay and Two Harbor programs at high school but at youth they play separte peewee teams at the B level.
3. Hermantown which plays at the AA A and B level similar to Duluth.
4. Proctor plays at the A & B level.

Also in District 11 are
the Cloquet - Carlton - Esko youth teams which combine at travel age and play AA and B.
Moose Lake (high school section 7) plays B level


In youth hockjey the classification of AA & A is not unlike High School where the distinction is purely for play-offs.

In District 16 it is mandated that all A teams (whether AA or A) play each other in a league. I do not know what District 11 requires.

But looking at what Hermantown could do for thier top team schedule would be a couple of games with Dultuh teams (which in theory would be Denfeld), Cloquet and Proctor. So in theory they are going to play (required) two section 7 teams. Looking at their schedule they paly Denfeld but not Proctor.

After that (like all youth hockey associations) you play those teams that you are competitive with or have a long-standing, traditional rivalry and are a practical drive.

The metro is an two hours away, the section 7 teams are 1 1/4 to 2 1/2 hours away. Comparing the number of games at youth level is a meaningless thing.

[Jeffy95]

After that (like all youth hockey associations) you play those teams that you are competitive with or have a long-standing, traditional rivalry and are a practical drive.

Exactly, which is why they can't schedule 7A teams at youth. All of the other 7A teams play each other home and home throughout youth. But those teams can't compete with Hermantown so Hermantown doesn't schedule them. The only way for Hermantown to get competitive youth games is Metro AA teams. The difference is Hermantown stays in AA for the playoffs in youth. Same groups in high school, minus the kids the other programs have lost, when they drop down to A for playoffs. Like I said, it's very clever and you have to give them credit for creating this model. As long as they keep it up, the kids will keep coming in through open-enrollment and they can't lose. They would be crazy to change it.

[elliott70]

After that (like all youth hockey associations) you play those teams that you are competitive with or have a long-standing, traditional rivalry and are a practical drive.

Exactly, which is why they can't schedule 7A teams at youth. All of the other 7A teams play each other home and home throughout youth. But those teams can't compete with Hermantown so Hermantown doesn't schedule them. The only way for Hermantown to get competitive youth games is Metro AA teams. The difference is Hermantown stays in AA for the playoffs in youth. Same groups in high school, minus the kids the other programs have lost, when they drop down to A for playoffs. Like I said, it's very clever and you have to give them credit for creating this model. As long as they keep it up, the kids will keep coming in through open-enrollment and they can't lose. They would be crazy to change it.

7A teams play each other home and home: THERE ARE NO 7A TEAMS AT YOUTH LEVEL. Some are District 12 and some are District 11. For the most part they can play each other if they want and in some cases they must play each other. Some cannot play each other because of being A level versus B level.
difference is Hermantown stays in AA for the playoffs: They have no choice, if elect to be AA at the beginning of the year they stay there.

kids will keep coming in through open-enrollment: Again the problem with your argument is you keep saying this...
How many kids on this year's team are open enrollees? How many have not been developed by Hermantown youth hockey?

Answers NONE and probably one.

[kniven]

Agreed. Why would Hermantown change a perfect business model. Plus, Hermantown hockey has become a direct-line feeder program to the UMD hockey. And you go to the X every year.

[hockey59]

After that (like all youth hockey associations) you play those teams that you are competitive with or have a long-standing, traditional rivalry and are a practical drive.

Exactly, which is why they can't schedule 7A teams at youth. All of the other 7A teams play each other home and home throughout youth. But those teams can't compete with Hermantown so Hermantown doesn't schedule them. The only way for Hermantown to get competitive youth games is Metro AA teams. The difference is Hermantown stays in AA for the playoffs in youth. Same groups in high school, minus the kids the other programs have lost, when they drop down to A for playoffs. Like I said, it's very clever and you have to give them credit for creating this model. As long as they keep it up, the kids will keep coming in through open-enrollment and they can't lose. They would be crazy to change it.

7A teams play each other home and home: THERE ARE NO 7A TEAMS AT YOUTH LEVEL. Some are District 12 and some are District 11. For the most part they can play each other if they want and in some cases they must play each other. Some cannot play each other because of being A level versus B level.
difference is Hermantown stays in AA for the playoffs: They have no choice, if elect to be AA at the beginning of the year they stay there.

kids will keep coming in through open-enrollment: Again the problem with your argument is you keep saying this...
How many kids on this year's team are open enrollees? How many have not been developed by Hermantown youth hockey?

Answers NONE and probably one.

NO...the point is they’re sandbagging to advance to Single A HS State literally every year (and robbing their PLAYERS of the chance/opportunity to possibility advance to AA HS State)...an opportunity they afford their players in PeeWees & Bantam. Plain & simple...that’s all it is.

[Jeffy95]

After that (like all youth hockey associations) you play those teams that you are competitive with or have a long-standing, traditional rivalry and are a practical drive.

Exactly, which is why they can't schedule 7A teams at youth. All of the other 7A teams play each other home and home throughout youth. But those teams can't compete with Hermantown so Hermantown doesn't schedule them. The only way for Hermantown to get competitive youth games is Metro AA teams. The difference is Hermantown stays in AA for the playoffs in youth. Same groups in high school, minus the kids the other programs have lost, when they drop down to A for playoffs. Like I said, it's very clever and you have to give them credit for creating this model. As long as they keep it up, the kids will keep coming in through open-enrollment and they can't lose. They would be crazy to change it.

7A teams play each other home and home: THERE ARE NO 7A TEAMS AT YOUTH LEVEL. Some are District 12 and some are District 11. For the most part they can play each other if they want and in some cases they must play each other. Some cannot play each other because of being A level versus B level.
difference is Hermantown stays in AA for the playoffs: They have no choice, if elect to be AA at the beginning of the year they stay there.

kids will keep coming in through open-enrollment: Again the problem with your argument is you keep saying this...
How many kids on this year's team are open enrollees? How many have not been developed by Hermantown youth hockey?

Answers NONE and probably one.

Okay, let me rephrase that. All Section 7A High School teams play each other home and home throughout youth hockey. Yes, they play each other because they want to. It's a short drive, competitive games and those are the teams they have to prepare for in High School.

All of the open-enrollment/transfer data is contained within these 12 pages and all over the forum if you really want to see it. Start with Net Presence's posts, he's obviously very close to the situation. I don't have time to go back, but I believe he said 13 of the 20 kids on last year's roster came from other programs. There are at least 7 that I know of from this year's team but I'm sure he knows of more.

They've created a fool-proof model for attracting players. How many Associations can say: "If you come here to play, you will develop and improve by playing the top competition in the state all throughout your youth career and High School regular season. This will hone your skills and give you a chance to play beyond High School. And if that's not enough, we can guarantee you three straight years at the X for the State Tournament. How do we do this you ask? Because at playoff time we drop down from the class that you've been competing/winning at since PeeWees."

I don't fault them for it anymore. If you can get away with it why wouldn't you do it? I've been hard on them in the past but you have to admit it's genius.

[northwoods oldtimer]

After that (like all youth hockey associations) you play those teams that you are competitive with or have a long-standing, traditional rivalry and are a practical drive.

Exactly, which is why they can't schedule 7A teams at youth. All of the other 7A teams play each other home and home throughout youth. But those teams can't compete with Hermantown so Hermantown doesn't schedule them. The only way for Hermantown to get competitive youth games is Metro AA teams. The difference is Hermantown stays in AA for the playoffs in youth. Same groups in high school, minus the kids the other programs have lost, when they drop down to A for playoffs. Like I said, it's very clever and you have to give them credit for creating this model. As long as they keep it up, the kids will keep coming in through open-enrollment and they can't lose. They would be crazy to change it.

Perfect model for the "it's all about MY kid" era.

[elliott70]

Exactly, which is why they can't schedule 7A teams at youth. All of the other 7A teams play each other home and home throughout youth. But those teams can't compete with Hermantown so Hermantown doesn't schedule them. The only way for Hermantown to get competitive youth games is Metro AA teams. The difference is Hermantown stays in AA for the playoffs in youth. Same groups in high school, minus the kids the other programs have lost, when they drop down to A for playoffs. Like I said, it's very clever and you have to give them credit for creating this model. As long as they keep it up, the kids will keep coming in through open-enrollment and they can't lose. They would be crazy to change it.

7A teams play each other home and home: THERE ARE NO 7A TEAMS AT YOUTH LEVEL. Some are District 12 and some are District 11. For the most part they can play each other if they want and in some cases they must play each other. Some cannot play each other because of being A level versus B level.
difference is Hermantown stays in AA for the playoffs: They have no choice, if elect to be AA at the beginning of the year they stay there.

kids will keep coming in through open-enrollment: Again the problem with your argument is you keep saying this...
How many kids on this year's team are open enrollees? How many have not been developed by Hermantown youth hockey?

Answers NONE and probably one.

NO...the point is they’re sandbagging to advance to Single A HS State literally every year (and robbing their PLAYERS of the chance/opportunity to possibility advance to AA HS State)...an opportunity they afford their players in PeeWees & Bantam. Plain & simple...that’s all it is.

Yes, your argument is the good one.

But the responsible people the board of education and administratoin is doing what they think is best for their school.
What we think is of no consequence.

Most of us (or at least me) are hung up on region 7 - 8 (sections) being tradionally north teams.
So in that vane Section 7AA should/could/would be

Dultuh East, Duluth Denfeld, Grand Rapids, Cloquet, Duluth Marshall, Hermantown, Virgini, HIbbing, Greenway and if need be
North Branch, Cambridge,
Chisago Area, St Franics, Forest Lake.


As long as I am at it,
Section 8AA
Roseau, Warroad, Thief River Falls, East Grand Forks, Bemidji, Brainerd, Alexandria, Moorhead
and if need be
Sartell, St Cloud, St Cloud Cathedral, Fergus Falls

In other words the top 8 or so hockey programs from each area.
And no it would not lead us to Tier 1 Tier 2.