The Hermantown Thread

[northwoods oldtimer]

Anyone that gets momentum going in their program could conceivably do it. Who would be most likely right now? Probably SCC followed by Mahtomedi, EGF, and Alex. That isn't the point I am making though. I am saying you can't kick teams out just because they are good. Isn't that getting back to the Tier 1 & 2 again?
...

Do you think kicking out every team that is good is a good precedent to set? Do you think if Hermantown moves up this will end? If you do you are a fool. History does not agree with that statement. You are arguing for the Tier system you just don't want to call it that. You are arguing based on talent not enrollment.

These are great points. Personally, I am on the fence regarding Hermantown, in part because of their AA youth system and history of complaining about other successful (private) schools at the A level. However, encouraging every successful program to opt up to AA is a slippery slope that devalues the Class A tournament and leads us closer to the dreaded two tier system. I distinctly recall a few posts on the forum after last year’s tournament calling for Alexandria to move up, and they didn’t even win the final!

Anecdotal at best. Nobody to my recollection came out and stated Alex should move up.

[7TIMECHAMPS]

The handful of teams that can actually compete for a class A state title usually could compete pretty well at a AA level. You have pointed this out. So every two years you are saying each team should self assess if they are one of those few top teams with a shot at a title. And if you are you should opt up and compete at the AA level where you have a good chance of being knocked off by the Duluth East’s or Moorhead’s of the world? Where is the cutoff for who should opt up in a given two year cycle? Is the class A champ going to then be labeled a coward every year because they didn’t opt up when they were the best team left? Seems like a confusing system. Just wondering how it would work. You need a system. It can’t just be make Hermantown go AA and everything will be perfect. It will happen again and you need to be able to deal with it.

Also maybe you personally wouldn’t call for other teams to opt up but other people would. Like I said earlier it is foolish to think this would never happen again.

Try creating a system that is perfectly fair. It won’t happen. It just isn’t possible.

Hermantown would not have won 7AA last year. Nor would they this year in all likelihood. But they should just opt up to AA to hand somebody else a chance? I think that is a decision for them to make not you.

[kniven]

Please, Hermantown stay in A.

[7TIMECHAMPS]

They are playing in the class that the MSHSL has put them in. Maybe you should write to the MSHSL about how unfair life is. And sorry but somebody is going to teach them that so why not Hermantown kids?

No, the MSHSL gives them, as a Class A team, the choice which class to play in. Yeah, I suppose when anyone is abusing a loophole, we're all better off not saying anything and just meekly accepting our fate. That's a solid life lesson.

They're better it is that easy. You act like Hermantown is the only town with advantages. Guess what Edina has advantages over Armstrong Cooper too. I know shocker that there are inequities in AA hockey as well.

Hermantown competes just fine with Edina, so no worries there.

Anyone that gets momentum going in their program could conceivably do it. Who would be most likely right now? Probably SCC followed by Mahtomedi, EGF, and Alex. That isn't the point I am making though. I am saying you can't kick teams out just because they are good. Isn't that getting back to the Tier 1 & 2 again?

I just think that when a team is good enough to compete with the best in AA, they should opt up to AA. Why does this concept escape you? I also firmly believe that when a team's AA-level group graduates, they should be able to got back to A if they can no longer compete with top AA teams. EGF was good enough to compete in AA a few years ago, and since then they have not been. Go to AA when you can; it's a pretty simple concept.

They were beating up on 8AA as a matter of fact. I remember them spanking Roseau 15-1 in 05. I believe they tied Moorhead that year too. And that was one of the best teams Moorhead has ever had. They had some dominant teams in the 90's and early to mid 2000's. They beat up on much of 8AA and would been very competitive with top AA teams. I am sure other members can attest to that.

That's awesome. How great would it have been to see them give AA a shot?

They may still be in A. I am not sure of their motivation. You are making my point that you just want to kick out everyone that is good and has some sort of an advantage. Why wouldn't it be good? Because then your team/kid have less of a chance to go?

Remind me, what other A team do I want kicked out? I don't want to kick out everyone that's good, you hallucinated that part. I want to kick out a program that has had a ton of A success and is very, very capable of AA success now and for years to come. You might extrapolate this to all good A teams, but I don't, so please don't accuse me of it.

Do you think kicking out every team that is good is a good precedent to set? Do you think if Hermantown moves up this will end? If you do you are a fool. History does not agree with that statement. You are arguing for the Tier system you just don't want to call it that. You are arguing based on talent not enrollment.

I don't know how you make the leap from me wanting Hermantown to opt up meaning I want every good team kicked out of A, but you are entitled to your delusions. Hermantown's enrollment is meaningless. If you don't know this by now, then you have missed the entire point of this 14 page thread.

I can tell all the whining is really getting you agitated. I have a solution: Don't read it. You have every right to whine about my whining, but as you know, life isn't fair, so sometimes you will encounter some whining. I am an unstoppable whining force! You cannot stop me!

Also I don’t feel agitated at all. I don’t have a horse in this race. I mean clearly you are agitated since you have made it your life mission to make sure everyone knows what a dirty little hockey community Hermantown is. Me I could really care less about 7A. I just like a good debate every now and then. Play devils advocate. Hopefully get my point across that your solution isn’t as simple as you make it out to be.

[7TIMECHAMPS]

Anyone that gets momentum going in their program could conceivably do it. Who would be most likely right now? Probably SCC followed by Mahtomedi, EGF, and Alex. That isn't the point I am making though. I am saying you can't kick teams out just because they are good. Isn't that getting back to the Tier 1 & 2 again?
...

Do you think kicking out every team that is good is a good precedent to set? Do you think if Hermantown moves up this will end? If you do you are a fool. History does not agree with that statement. You are arguing for the Tier system you just don't want to call it that. You are arguing based on talent not enrollment.

These are great points. Personally, I am on the fence regarding Hermantown, in part because of their AA youth system and history of complaining about other successful (private) schools at the A level. However, encouraging every successful program to opt up to AA is a slippery slope that devalues the Class A tournament and leads us closer to the dreaded two tier system. I distinctly recall a few posts on the forum after last year’s tournament calling for Alexandria to move up, and they didn’t even win the final!

Anecdotal at best. Nobody to my recollection came out and stated Alex should move up.

See the “What in the world just happened to the Hermantown Hawks” thread from last March. Somebody did say it even if the consensus from most was that they shouldn’t yet.

[rainier2]

The handful of teams that can actually compete for a class A state title usually could compete pretty well at a AA level. You have pointed this out. So every two years you are saying each team should self assess if they are one of those few top teams with a shot at a title. And if you are you should opt up and compete at the AA level where you have a good chance of being knocked off by the Duluth East’s or Moorhead’s of the world? Where is the cutoff for who should opt up in a given two year cycle? Is the class A champ going to then be labeled a coward every year because they didn’t opt up when they were the best team left? Seems like a confusing system. Just wondering how it would work. You need a system. It can’t just be make Hermantown go AA and everything will be perfect. It will happen again and you need to be able to deal with it.

A near-perfect system already exists: opt up when you think you have a shot in AA. Hermantown going AA won't make everything perfect, I agree, but it's a great starting point. I think the only way the Class A champ's administration would be labeled a coward is if their team had tons of A success already and had competed well against top AA teams their entire lives yet didn't opt up to A for HS. If you think a system can be designed, in anything, to be completely free of future problems, then I have a bridge in Superior to sell you.

Also maybe you personally wouldn’t call for other teams to opt up but other people would. Like I said earlier it is foolish to think this would never happen again.

Almost as foolish as thinking it's fine for Hermantown to sandbag in Class A, but not quite. As adults, we can deal with specific situations as they arise and use our judgement when it's called for. Fear of the unknown is not an excuse for inaction. If another team starts to dominate in the way STA or Hermantown has, then that can be dealt with then.

Try creating a system that is perfectly fair. It won’t happen. It just isn’t possible.

This is true, but it doesn't mean we just throw up our hands and give up. Is that what you do when you encounter a complex problem? Why is it that you give up so easily in the face of opposition? You'll never make the perfect pizza, so are you going to quit making pizzas forever? Unlike the Hermantown decision-makers, most people enjoy a challenge. Having a team that goes to the A title game every year and beats top AA teams regularly sounds like as low-hanging of fruit for this system as there could possibly be.

Hermantown would not have won 7AA last year. Nor would they this year in all likelihood. But they should just opt up to AA to hand somebody else a chance? I think that is a decision for them to make not you.

Thanks Captain Obvious, but I realize the decision is theirs and not mine. But this is just whining on a message board, so no one cares anyway, right? You have less faith in the Hawks than even their AD does, apparently. Hermantown and East have both played one-goal games with Wayzata this year. Hermantown played Tonka tight last year; who's to say they couldn't have won 7AA? How about the two previous years, where they did beat the eventual AA champ? You're treading dangerously close to the "if we can't beat everyone in AA, all the time, then we have no business opting up" mindset.

[rainier2]

These are great points. Personally, I am on the fence regarding Hermantown, in part because of their AA youth system and history of complaining about other successful (private) schools at the A level. However, encouraging every successful program to opt up to AA is a slippery slope that devalues the Class A tournament and leads us closer to the dreaded two tier system. I distinctly recall a few posts on the forum after last year’s tournament calling for Alexandria to move up, and they didn’t even win the final!

Anecdotal at best. Nobody to my recollection came out and stated Alex should move up.

See the “What in the world just happened to the Hermantown Hawks” thread from last March. Somebody did say it even if the consensus from most was that they shouldn’t yet.

Let me know when the Alexandria Opt Up thread hits 15 pages.

[7TIMECHAMPS]

Anecdotal at best. Nobody to my recollection came out and stated Alex should move up.

See the “What in the world just happened to the Hermantown Hawks” thread from last March. Somebody did say it even if the consensus from most was that they shouldn’t yet.

Let me know when the Alexandria Opt Up thread hits 15 pages.

Since half of those posts are you and Jeffy I will let you start that up. Seem pretty good at it.

[rainier2]

They are playing in the class that the MSHSL has put them in. Maybe you should write to the MSHSL about how unfair life is. And sorry but somebody is going to teach them that so why not Hermantown kids?

No, the MSHSL gives them, as a Class A team, the choice which class to play in. Yeah, I suppose when anyone is abusing a loophole, we're all better off not saying anything and just meekly accepting our fate. That's a solid life lesson.

They're better it is that easy. You act like Hermantown is the only town with advantages. Guess what Edina has advantages over Armstrong Cooper too. I know shocker that there are inequities in AA hockey as well.

Hermantown competes just fine with Edina, so no worries there.

Anyone that gets momentum going in their program could conceivably do it. Who would be most likely right now? Probably SCC followed by Mahtomedi, EGF, and Alex. That isn't the point I am making though. I am saying you can't kick teams out just because they are good. Isn't that getting back to the Tier 1 & 2 again?

I just think that when a team is good enough to compete with the best in AA, they should opt up to AA. Why does this concept escape you? I also firmly believe that when a team's AA-level group graduates, they should be able to got back to A if they can no longer compete with top AA teams. EGF was good enough to compete in AA a few years ago, and since then they have not been. Go to AA when you can; it's a pretty simple concept.

They were beating up on 8AA as a matter of fact. I remember them spanking Roseau 15-1 in 05. I believe they tied Moorhead that year too. And that was one of the best teams Moorhead has ever had. They had some dominant teams in the 90's and early to mid 2000's. They beat up on much of 8AA and would been very competitive with top AA teams. I am sure other members can attest to that.

That's awesome. How great would it have been to see them give AA a shot?

They may still be in A. I am not sure of their motivation. You are making my point that you just want to kick out everyone that is good and has some sort of an advantage. Why wouldn't it be good? Because then your team/kid have less of a chance to go?

Remind me, what other A team do I want kicked out? I don't want to kick out everyone that's good, you hallucinated that part. I want to kick out a program that has had a ton of A success and is very, very capable of AA success now and for years to come. You might extrapolate this to all good A teams, but I don't, so please don't accuse me of it.

Do you think kicking out every team that is good is a good precedent to set? Do you think if Hermantown moves up this will end? If you do you are a fool. History does not agree with that statement. You are arguing for the Tier system you just don't want to call it that. You are arguing based on talent not enrollment.

I don't know how you make the leap from me wanting Hermantown to opt up meaning I want every good team kicked out of A, but you are entitled to your delusions. Hermantown's enrollment is meaningless. If you don't know this by now, then you have missed the entire point of this 14 page thread.

I can tell all the whining is really getting you agitated. I have a solution: Don't read it. You have every right to whine about my whining, but as you know, life isn't fair, so sometimes you will encounter some whining. I am an unstoppable whining force! You cannot stop me!

Also I don’t feel agitated at all. I don’t have a horse in this race. I mean clearly you are agitated since you have made it your life mission to make sure everyone knows what a dirty little hockey community Hermantown is. Me I could really care less about 7A. I just like a good debate every now and then. Play devils advocate. Hopefully get my point across that your solution isn’t as simple as you make it out to be.

I'm agitated, no doubt. I'm just putting facts and stats out there, people can do with them what they choose. The reason it causes so much consternation is that when people see the truth about Hermantown, it is embarrassing. That's what I find so fascinating about this: If you just simply post youth AA records, public documents from youth association meetings, articles about open-enrollment in the local paper, and public statements from former coaches, some people on here get really angry. I'm not making any of this up.

[ILTG]

Spot on Rainier.

[Slap Shot]

Is anyone arguing H-town should be forced into AA - or rather they think they should move voluntarily?

[Goose21]

"What other Class A team plays AA all through youth levels and is then competitive with top AA programs once they reach HS?"

Mahtomedi,
not per se, but St Cloud Cathedral

East Grand Forks, Warroad and Thief River Falls don't play AA but play all the AA youth teams they want in the west, north west and North Dakota.

The only true AA youth program (with all due respect to Roseau and Bemidji who opt up) in western and northwestern part of Minnesota is Moorhead with both Peewee and Bantam AA teams. Grand Forks, Fargo, and sometimes Minot will have Bantam AA teams. The Aviators from Grand Forks only play top AA teams. The large majority of EGF, TRF and Warroad's schedule is against other A teams, with a few games against Moorhead, and sometimes Grand Rapids, Brainerd and the other ND AA teams (and perhaps another AA team or two at tournaments). Their schedules are filled primarily with geographical opponents with the like of themselves, both Grand Forks A teams, Bemidji, Roseau, Crookston, Detroit Lakes, Fergus Falls, Alexandria, etc.

[Jeffy95]

I thought Hermantown was supposed to be in a "down" year this year. They are competing with and beating all of the AA teams. Does anyone think these people will have the integrity and decency to move up to the level that they belong at? Or will they continue to be a bunch of gutless scallawags with no pride in their kids or community? We'll find out in March!

[hockey59]

I thought Hermantown was supposed to be in a "down" year this year. They are competing with and beating all of the AA teams. Does anyone think these people will have the integrity and decency to move up to the level that they belong at? Or will they continue to be a bunch of gutless scallawags with no pride in their kids or community? We'll find out in March!

I wouldn’t hold my breath But relating to the first point above, they’ll beat many but not the best AA teams, winning this year largely because of two underclass players, Blake Biondi & Joey Pierce, 2 of the best players in the STATE

[Jeffy95]

I thought Hermantown was supposed to be in a "down" year this year. They are competing with and beating all of the AA teams. Does anyone think these people will have the integrity and decency to move up to the level that they belong at? Or will they continue to be a bunch of gutless scallawags with no pride in their kids or community? We'll find out in March!

I wouldn’t hold my breath But relating to the first point above, they’ll beat many but not the best AA teams, winning this year largely because of two underclass players, Blake Biondi & Joey Pierce, 2 of the best players in the STATE

Yes, Joey Pierce has been fun to watch. He was a huge free agent signing for the Hawks. But they are used to it and have a very fluid system in place to bring in all players as long as they're good enough. It's going to be an absolute riot to watch them in the JV playoffs this year. I can't wait!

[rainier2]

I thought Hermantown was supposed to be in a "down" year this year. They are competing with and beating all of the AA teams. Does anyone think these people will have the integrity and decency to move up to the level that they belong at? Or will they continue to be a bunch of gutless scallawags with no pride in their kids or community? We'll find out in March!

Whoa, whoa, whoa, Jeffy, let's not get crazy. The Hermantown pee wees and bantams are not undefeated vs Edina, Eden Prairie, and Tonka this season, so Class A is clearly where they belong. Remember, until the Hawks can beat every AA team, all the time, they have no business being in AA. They are a small school!!!

[Jeffy95]

To come on here and say the players would rather play AA, how many kids have you talked to? The kids want to play hockey, they don't want to walk in an arena and be booed and heckled for playing single A. Those of you that have done that or encouraged it - shame on you.

Those in power at HT make the decision based on what they think is best for their students and their school.

I assume you've led the charge and stuck up for the East kids when Student's chant "Daddy's Money" at games too then, correct? Do those kids have control over how much money great grandpa and grandpa passed down to their parents?

If student's pay their money they can boo and heckle all they want. Kids are affected every day, everywhere in the world by the decisions of adults. If the adults in Hermantown don't like it, they can make better decisions.

[Bigfoot12]

Wow, the jealousy. You rip the parents and kids of Hermantown for having a great program.We dont care

[Jeffy95]

Wow, the jealousy. You rip the parents and kids of Hermantown for having a great program.We dont care

Stick with one username and maybe you will be taken seriously. You're on your third one within a year. Keep grabbing kids from every association in the state and sandbagging. You should be very proud!

[PuckNA]

How do you see sections being realigned?

[Usthockey13]

Doesnt matter they arent moving up. But I do think Duluth Marshall will drop back down to A. Then maybe theyll just leave 7AA with 8 teams

[kniven]

How do you see sections being realigned?

This belongs in the Hermantown thread

[east hockey]

How do you see sections being realigned?

This belongs in the Hermantown thread

Agreed. It's been merged.

Lee

[hockey59]

Well...the lowly small enrollment single”a” hawks take on the AA MINNETONKA juggernaut in the cold, icy hawk barn Saturday...based on the class each plays in...you’d think this was some sort of david vs GOLIATH matchup

[kniven]

Well...the lowly small enrollment single”a” hawks take on the AA MINNETONKA juggernaut in the cold, icy hawk barn Saturday...based on the class each plays in...you’d think this was some sort of david vs GOLIATH matchup

Not even close. Hermantown is very good, and consistent over the last 20 years. I hope those boys can get the 218 a victory tomorrow versus a metro giant!