MN Hockey approves "Before & After" U19

Uppercorner · Post by **Uppercorner** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 1:15 pm

In a surprising reversal from their June meeting, the MN Hockey Board of Directors this past weekend approved "Before & After" hockey for U19 girls teams. It is anticipated that as many as 5 or 6 teams may be formed and registration can begin immediately. Timing is important because in order to qualify for the Minnkota District Playoffs and the chance to advance to Nationals teams must play a minimum of 14 games against other registered U19 teams and players listed on a team's roster must play in a minimum of 10 games. Eligible teams then will have the opportunity to challenge Shattuck and the Thoroughbreds in the Minnkota District Playoffs on March 17-19th at the Bloomington Ice Gardens for the right to advance to the U19 Nationals in New York. Not surprisingly, MN Hockey stated that this new opportunity is only for girls at the U19 (17, 18 & 19 years of age) level of play, however, this will not stand as MN Hockey will undoubtedly cave in at the first threat of a lawsuit as they did in this instance. For better or worse, AAA/Elite hockey is now established in Minnesota. This is just the begining and it will expand from here.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 1:35 pm

It should be noted that the pre-post U19 event is scheduled for only 3 years. The plan is to establish an elite program similar to the boys with no national tournament entry. It should also be noted that no one on the Board discussed any threat of lawsuit by anyone. It should also be noted that it was NOT a unanimous vote. The Minnkota tournament is also open to all U19 teams that might register in-season teams in Minnesota, North Dakota, & South Dakota. At this time it appears that Shattuck and the T-Breds may be joined by 6-8 teams in the metro area as in-season teams. Probalby not the type of teams that will want to participate in the Minnkota playoffs but they are welcome to do so. It should also be noted that pre-season was already available. If any one on MN Hockey consented to this, and in the manner they did becasue they were privately threatened with a law suit, I would ask for their resignation. If one small group thinks they can bully an organization in any way then they had better be prepared for a fight. And I am one of a few that supported their efforts last April. "Violence is the last refuge of an ignorant man." "Bullying is the first refuge of a desperate man." Edited by: <A HREF=http://p074.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... liott70</A> at: 9/21/05 2:26 pm

IGiveBlood · Post by **IGiveBlood** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 3:09 pm

The threat of lawsuit may not have been discussed openly but it was clearly what was motivating Dennis Green, Bob Halvorsen, Dave Bakke, and the adhoc planning committee to push this through the way they did by suspending the rules. We can thank the same individual who went after the high school league about the girls state tournament venue for this!

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 3:21 pm

Yes, he made himself evident at the meetings. But not all of us bought into the way it was handled.

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 3:44 pm

First question: Can the Tbreds and SSM now not have non-U19 eligible players on their rosters? I could see this being a point of contention. If all 1989 & younger Bdays were dropped from their rosters, it would be a big blow to their programs. My thoughts: For this year, the Walser organization will likely be National Champions. In the future, the MGHCA could team up with the MSHSL/MH/USAH to form an elite league (B&A) and allow those teams to play for state/district/nationals.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 3:47 pm

Shattuck & T-Breds are 'in-season' teams and will roster according to USA Hockey & MN Hockey rules and administered by the cognizant district director. Yes, they may very well have 16 year old players at Shattuck. T-Breds were not to have these age girls but as I understand a concession was made for some for various reasons.

IGiveBlood · Post by **IGiveBlood** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 3:49 pm

The T-Breds can have U16 age players but can not use U14 age eligible players.

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 3:58 pm

I can see this being a challenge. I'm not trying to get everyone riled up, but I remember that there was an issue with a U14 player with TB last year, but thought 16's were always fair game. Then I heard that the real issue was that people didn't want youth kids going to TB when they should be playing youth still - so for a while I assumed that if a player had played 1 year of HS then they could go TB no problem even if 13. All of this may be wrong, I don't know. What is interesting is that this could do one of any number of things to G HS Hockey. It may spawn more TB like teams? It may make the MSHSL & MN H rethink some things? But, I do think it's a good step on a trial basis. I also think that long term it would be nice to see this mesh somehow with an B&A GEL (Before and After Girls' Elite League) like what the boys have - but with the added post-season/state/nationals piece. Maybe teams like the TB & SSM would play games with these teams and it could be what keeps kids from feeling so compelled to transfer in HS season, leave for TB, etc. In the end it could save G HS Hockey in this respect as the Boys' Elite League did for the boys (I think, relative to Juniors) or it could also open the doors to too many other TB like opportunities. I think that it's all about how this is handled... Edited by: <A HREF=http://p074.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... ckeyfan</A> at: 9/21/05 4:00 pm

IGiveBlood · Post by **IGiveBlood** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:39 pm

The TBreds were prohibited to put anyone on their roster who is U14 eligible (by MN Hockey dates) even if they had played high school and not U14. I know the player from last year (she was U14 by MN Hockey dates but U16 by USA Hockey cutoff dates) and she ended up playing with the Colorado Selects because she had originally come from there and her family still had a residence there.

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:17 pm

Right, that's the one I'm thinking of - and she had played a year of HS - MN HS in fact I believe - before last year???

IGiveBlood · Post by **IGiveBlood** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:45 am

She played for the Breck H.S. team the year before.

runtsrule · Post by **runtsrule** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:33 am

I think you will see the T-Breds suffer here. Kids that are thinking of playing for them for the "exposure", now will hook up with a before and after team, but still will play with their HS teams.

hockeyrube · Post by **hockeyrube** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:47 am

IMO- First of all, I am not a huge fan of off-season AAA hockey - while it has offered some kids an opportunity to play on more competitive teams than their regular HS team - it has also been partially to blame for the "school hopping"/transfer situations (along with open enrollment of course). I would like to draw a huge distinction between the current boys Fall HS Elite League vs. AAA B&A teams that want to compete in year end national tournaments. The current Fall HS Elite league (boys) is comprised of regional teams. Players are invited to play - and placed on teams in some sort of regional basis. They play on weekends in different venues, and the league ends prior to the start of the regular HS season. Girls AAA B&A teams are privately organized (Walser, Ice Cats, etc) - wanting to play B&A, Summer tournaments, and of course National Tournaments. My point - Girls AAA hockey is gaining lots of momentum - more tournaments every year - more scouting at the games - elite players playing with other elite players. I have seen many instances where these kids go back to play the regular season with their HS team - and act like it's boring, their teammates can't keep up - the whole thing is so inferior to their AAA experiences. IMO - this will eventually ruin HS hockey in MN. I watched it happen in Soccer over the years - where club soccer has become elite. All the recruiting is done at the club level, not HS level. HS Girl's Soccer is simply a necessary formality for the elite players - and the game has suffered for it. I guess I am just a big fan of HS sports. The sense of school spirit, pride in your community, playing with the kids you grew up with - this benefits some 2000 HS girls each year. In contrast, AAA hockey benefits the elite enriching the hockey experience for a relative few, while watering down the HS experience for sooo many.... Rube Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... keyrube</A> at: 2/27/06 9:45 am

sghfan · Post by **sghfan** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:00 am

hockeyrube, I think you have summarized the situation and the outlook very well. This is a sad thing for girls high school hockey.

IGiveBlood · Post by **IGiveBlood** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:23 am

I agree. It is too bad that a couple of individuals with assistance by the individual who went after the high school league were able to cow MN Hockey into approving this. I know these individuals and they are far more driven by their own egos than interested in what is best for the players and for girls high school hockey in general.

RLStars · Post by **RLStars** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 11:59 am

What Rube has describe with soccer, also applies to girls gymnastics. Club gymnastcis rules the land. Colleges scout club teams and USA gymnastics events almost exclusively.

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 12:16 pm

I think that this - like anything - is what we make of it. In the short term, maybe up to the three year trial period, it seems that the Walser, etc. AAA as we know them are best ready to be the teams that take advantage of this opportunity. Long term, I think another possibility would be to have a Girls' Elite League "GEL" like the boys. A league could run Before & After "B&A" the HS seaosn, in line with when the TB/SSM teams start, up until the start of the HS seaosn (the "B" before portion) and then after the HS seaosn ends, up until elimination at state/nationals for U19 (the "A" after poriton). In theory the "A" could start practicing/playing as soon as enough players are eliminated form the HS seaosn in sections... I believe such a league would keep MORE of the the best players in their home area, or educational based preference, HS (be that public, private, whatever). I think that just as many kids have stayed at their "home" HS as a result of the AAA hockey as have left due to its influences. What people are missing here is that we need a way to make this B&A "GEL" like hockey available to ALL of those players that are of the caliber that should/could participate. Currently, I have to say that this IS NOT the setup with AAA as is for Fall/Spring. What scares me is that if we don't set up methods by which to give these B&A "GEL" like opportunities to those kids that have worries about getting recruited out of a small/weak HS team, then we continue to drive them to transfer or play on TB like teams outside of MN G HS Hockey - and that isn't good for the HS sport, and THAT is what will drive us to be more and more like G Soccer as referenced earlier! Maybe it sounds crazy - but I think that we need to look at developing a true B&A GEL that is influenced/overseen by the Girls' HS Coaches Assn with the backing of MSHSL/USA/MN H. It's the only way that I can see relatively affordable, less travel needing, fall-sports participant friendly, and non-political/equal opportunity based opportunities. It's such opportunities that won't drive kids from G HS hockey, but help them stay at their home HS and get the exposure, development, and recognition that they need. Some would argue that the current programs are enough. I'm not so sure. Also, we'll never do away with AAA hockey as we know it, and it will always be the big deal from May - Aug. Those teams will continue to exist, and do a wonderfu job of providing good competitive opportunities during this period. Lastly, a B&A GEL doesn't preclude AAA teams from playing other Fall tourneys (like VT, ND, SP, etc.). It only gives all kids a chance (that aren't able to make all these trips for whatever reason) to have high level hockey opportunities, develop their skills, and get additional recognition while staying at their home HS (if they so choose). These concerns are realy a lot like why the Boys league was created I believe... To maintain the quality of the HS league on the whole, and if players start leaving the league entirely, then we are in trouble. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p074.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... ckeyfan</A> at: 9/22/05 12:17 pm

IGiveBlood · Post by **IGiveBlood** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 1:30 pm

Unfortunately, MN Hockey has stated that the goal is for an Elite Before league of the same caliber as the boys but they are doing nothing to make that happen but instead are hoping that someone will step forward to make that happen. For right now they believe it will be these AAA coaches that will establish this league....What a scarey thought.....

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 1:42 pm

Personally, I believe that for a GEL to be viable it would have to be opened to U16 aged players as well. This would be needed to make the number of teams with the proper caliber after removing those that wouldn't be interested for various reasons.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:09 pm

There is a group ready to make elite happen. And another individual in the wings. The elite program would be open to all girls still in high school and no longer eligible for 14U (basically HS girls).

StirTheMix · Post by **StirTheMix** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:36 pm

Will the new "GEL B&A" (whether the "after" stays or not) be pre-set teams, like Walser? Or will it be like the Boys EL with tryouts for a large number of players from all over the state (and Wisconsin too if I remember right) and a draft into new teams every fall? The current "special deal" is for pre-set teams only. Does anybody believe any other teams besides Walser will be able to form up, get committed, get games scheduled etc in the short time available? The "special deal" sets its teams on October 1. Since HS hockey starts approx Nov 1, that's a month to get a whole lot of games in. And that doesn't even address the "development" part of the argument in favor of this "special deal." When will there be time to practice for this? Is there any ice going unused that these teams can grab for practices, I mean "development?" After all, development happens more on the practice ice than in games, in my opinion! Since at least 1/2 the high school juniors are shut out of this (they're still age 16 on December 31, actually more like 2/3 are still 16 based on Sept 1 cutoff for schools), how many of the players will already have decided on their schools by the end of the HS season, and will have little reason to "be seen" by the scouts at the USA Hockey Nationals in April? Oh well, we've made our bed, now we get to sleep in it... Edited by: <A HREF=http://p074.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... rTheMix</A> at: 9/22/05 2:37 pm

The machine took my quart · Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:51 pm

I am packing my bags and taking my Bible. Armageddon is coming! Seriously, I hope it is limitted to pre and post season. Rushing it this year is a mistake! There are WAY too many yahoos that are going to get a hold of this screw over a couple of hundred people and towns. Wait and see the problems that are coming...I wish that kids would stay in their HS town with this during their season and play some tournaments in the off season. What ever happened to skill development? I guess that is out the window now. Kds will even more be interested in playing tons more games with less focus and personal development. Remember the old Showcase discussion how it wastes players time because they are only handling the puck for 20 seconds a game, and in summer development practices they work with the puck for an hour on their stick? Now we will see if this works to benefit girls hockey or just a few dozen girls a year as I fear could happen.

StirTheMix · Post by **StirTheMix** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:47 pm

I've heard some rather bizarre things on the (gasp) "verbal" grapevine re: the GEL B&A U19 for this year: * teams being registered at the very last minute (like getting to the MN Hockey registrar late in the evening of the deadline day) * coaches not being MN Hockey certified (I've heard various things about what level is appropriate for U19 - Level 3 or 4?) but being granted "temporary" certifications * signatures being questionable on various forms, signatures needing to be notarized that are not notarized, etc. Anybody else hearing such nonsense? Maybe just the rabble doing their rousing?

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:28 pm

Last year there was at least one episode where the registrar was visited after 9PM the night before an event I believe. That may be where that is coming from... Check the certification status of the involved coaches at: <a href="http://www.usahockey.com/servlets/Coach ...  I suppose that temporary certifications are better than no coach on a bench or having to drop games... Sometimes I wonder if all the paperwork is needed - would be nice to see this all automated online...

greybeard58 · Post by **greybeard58** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:29 pm

According to the USA Hockey Annual Guide a Coach must be a level 3. I would hope that everybody will follow the rules since Mn Hockey is signing off on this,for those that chose to stretch or break the rules the hammer should fall very hard.

HighSchoolHockeyForums.com

MN Hockey approves "Before & After" U19

MN Hockey approves "Before & After" U19

Re: MN Hockey approves "Before & After" U19

Re: MN Hockey approves "Before & After" U19

Re: MN Hockey approves "Before & After" U19

Re: MN Hockey approves "Before & After" U19

Re: MN Hockey approves "Before & After" U19

Re: MN Hockey approves "Before & After" U19

Re: MN Hockey approves "Before & After" U19

Re: MN Hockey approves "Before & After" U19

Re: MN Hockey approves "Before & After" U19

Re: MN Hockey approves "Before & After" U19

Re: MN Hockey approves "Before & After" U19

Re: MN Hockey approves "Before & After" U19

Re: MN Hockey approves "Before & After" U19

Re: MN Hockey approves "Before & After" U19

Re: MN Hockey approves "Before & After" U19

Re: MN Hockey approves "Before & After" U19

Re: MN Hockey approves "Before & After" U19

Re: MN Hockey approves "Before & After" U19

Re: MN Hockey approves "Before & After" U19

Re: MN Hockey approves "Before & After" U19

Re: MN Hockey approves "Before & After" U19

Re: MN Hockey approves "Before & After" U19

Re: MN Hockey approves "Before & After" U19

Re: MN Hockey approves "Before & After" U19