Is Rochester Red the 12th team in the D9 Peewee A playoffs?

[royalhockey999]

[quote="frederick61"][quote="HockeyDad41"]Just read this whole topic.

I'm a conflicted wreck.

On the one hand it just seems like a slimey and cheap way to get into the playoffs, and on the other hand I can't help but feel a little pride that I live in a country where people of imagination and means can say "Screw you, we're going to look out for our own best interests [u][i][b]AND[/b][/i][/u] we're going to play in your little tournament! How do ya like them apples?"

I'm actually shivering.[/quote]

You have got it right. Now question to the the Districts and to Minnesota Hockey is "how do ya like them apples?"[/quote]

On a more serious note, Fred when is the new blog coming out?????????????????????????????????????????????

[silentbutdeadly3139]

So you discount the validity of webpages but hold up an anonymous poster " claiming to be in the know and that everyone was on board with this in the beginning" as proof there are no issues ? interesting.

If the minutes are so definitive was the decision to allow red to play in districts in the minutes way back at beginning of the year when all of this was decided as posters have stated?

I guess I don't have a problem with Fred raising questions on this forum and looking for answers ... after all this is just a webpage.

The website wasn't proof of anything in my mind, so I'm not saying the website should be considered or not considered. Have you ever been a coach charged with your team's website??? The absence of information or inclusion of faulty information is a regular basis.

And yes, I'm going to trust people citing facts in their posts until proven otherwise and not assume they are lying. Call me naive, but if you can't at least make that assumption why even come here?

Lastly, what you said Fred did is not accurate. He was not just raising questions... go look at his prior posts.

I wish he would have. He was pointed in the direction of the minutes from January yet still, after being pointed in that direction, argued that Rochester had changed the rules in the past two weeks - citing a webpage.

Do you have any answer for this ? You seem to be very emotionally involved, perhaps meaning your in the know. Not much around what happened in the district minutes ... but then there rarely is.

[silentbutdeadly3139]

http://assets.ngin.com/attachments/docu ... eeting.pdf

Above is a link to the meeting minutes from the January meeting.

I see no conspiracy. Looks like all but a couple associations were present.

To my knowledge we have had no complaints from a coach/manager/parent from D9 that got bumped by this. Maybe they have been paid off?

Also no indication there was a discussion or asking for opinions.

[dogeatdog1]

Frankly no you didn't clear anything up except make excuses for the Red. Website issue? didn't update their schedule? And everybody must not been on board or it wouldn't have spawned this discussion. I have no idea wheather it was a back door last minute deal and frankly don't care. I just find it funny when some one (Fred) calls a team on the carpet with legitimate questions and gets answes like it must be a website issue.

What a lazy and dishonest post. I admitted that I don't know and pointed out that your argument (and Fred's) rested on what was on a webpage. I'm not blaming the webpage or making any excuses, I'm just calling on you, and Fred, to provide any rule that was broken, or cite any specific knowledge (other than a webpage) to support your contention that Rochester Red cheated the other D9 teams.

Do you acknowledge the following facts: 1) The most recent minutes from late January recognized that Rochester Red was in the playoffs, 2) There have been posts on this website from people claiming to be in the know and that everyone was on board with this in the beginning, and 3) There has been no citation to any rule that has been broken by Rochester or D9?

And if you do, why are you supporting Fred's contention that "something is fishy" and that "Rochester Red has done something wrong" and that MN hockey should stop Rochester Red from playing in the District and overstep the authority of D9's decision?

Lazy maybe but dishonest give me a break...Im not in the know enough to say if a Rule was broken. That would have to be fetched out in a grievance and again I don't have a dog in the hunt. The fact is that a rule doesn't have to be broken for back door deals to be done and for a special group of parents. Someone from D9 on this board should be able to clear this up and come on here to say everone is happy and that all this back and forth is all to do about nothing. So far that hasn't happned. Just you on the board smearing Fred and now the Dog with being dishonest. Shame Shame Shame on you. I am the watch dog on this board and will from time to time throw things out that I have heard to see if it has teeth (Look back at the Lakeville board debacle debate) but YOU? come on here and say that everything is honky dory with no backing. I have been around the hockey scene a long time and have seen Fred post some things that are a bit out there but he normally has a reason for his posts and when he is questioned on them he will get his view out. He does seem to call for a grievance and we will all see if that happens.

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

http://assets.ngin.com/attachments/docu ... eeting.pdf

Above is a link to the meeting minutes from the January meeting.

I see no conspiracy. Looks like all but a couple associations were present.

To my knowledge we have had no complaints from a coach/manager/parent from D9 that got bumped by this. Maybe they have been paid off?

Also no indication there was a discussion or asking for opinions.

Really??? Come on... that's where you're taking this?

I am not involved at all, I have no personal knowledge. I just think that what Rochester Red (and all of D9 approved of) was SMART and what was best for all the kids involved. Rochester Red got to play the competition that challenged them without having to suffer through 10+ blowouts and the rest of D9 got to play the Rochester players who are their equivalent in talent - Gold and Black.

Mankato got to scrimmage Rochester Red twice at least (and beat them!) so they have nothing to complain about with regards to missing out on competition.

There are 3 or 4 spots for regionals... plenty of room for everyone.

Thank you Rochester and D9 for getting creative within the MN hockey rules and giving all of us anti-AAA winter coaches further ammunition to keep our players within the MN hockey system!

And Fred - I apologized for coming off too strong against you personally, but I did not apologize for your failure to determine all the facts prior to making allegations. You can disagree with the rules that allowed for this, but take it up with MN hockey rather than cast dispersions alleging impropriety and Rochester bullying.

You have yet to cite the rule or any association that is complaining from D9. Until you do that, you are making allegations without facts and I guess I want more from you because of your blog.

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

So far that hasn't happened. Just you on the board smearing Fred and now the Dog with being dishonest. Shame Shame Shame on you. I am the watch dog on this board and will from time to time throw things out that I have heard to see if it has teeth (Look back at the Lakeville board debacle debate) but YOU? come on here and say that everything is honky dory with no backing.

Two simple things: Go and find one thing I said that "smeared" anyone. In fact, I have posted out of my way to let it be known that I respect Fred's knowledge of PeeWee hockey (I called him the godfather!) but that doesn't mean I have no right to critisize the merit of his argument or point out the lack of factual support he's asking for. He has repeatedly said "Rochester Red" broke the rules - yet he refuses to post the rule that was broken despite every rule being online at mn hockey's website.

Then find one thing I have alleged that has no factual backing.

Thanks, looking forward to it.

[silentbutdeadly3139]

http://assets.ngin.com/attachments/docu ... eeting.pdf

Above is a link to the meeting minutes from the January meeting.

I see no conspiracy. Looks like all but a couple associations were present.

To my knowledge we have had no complaints from a coach/manager/parent from D9 that got bumped by this. Maybe they have been paid off?

Also no indication there was a discussion or asking for opinions.

Really??? Come on... that's where you're taking this?

I didn't take it there someone else did.

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

Also no indication there was a discussion or asking for opinions.

Really??? Come on... that's where you're taking this?

I didn't take it there someone else did.

You brought up the argument that there was no indication of discussion or asking for opinions to support your point. No one else did.

[little9BigRed]

There has been plenty of talk around the rinks about how shady this looks. The other D9 teams had no idea if the Red teams were in districts well into January. I say don't cry sour grapes but next year have Mankato, Owatonna and whoever else wants to play a tougher schedule do as Rochester and play an independent schedule. Don't wayste your time playing Rochester Gold or Black let someone else develope their teams.

[the_juiceman]

why wouldn,t Roch have three teams at each level, divided by the high school the kids would go to.

Because youth hockey associations have nothing to do with high school hockey. Youth associations are community based organizations to develop all the hockey players that live in the community with no connection to what high school a child may go to. That is not their role or their responsibility. Focus on developing youth players and then they go to high school wherever they want.

Also, skip the equal team discussion. There are district, regional and state tournaments for PeeWee and Bantam A and B. The goal of youth associations is for their single A team and their top B team to advance through the District Tournament to regional and then the State tournament.

correct me if i'm wrong....aren't youth association boundries the same as the HS boundries in a particular city? you might live in Blaine, but your address puts you in Spring Lake Park school district, you play SLP youth hockey, go to SLP High School

[hocmom]

http://assets.ngin.com/attachments/docu ... eeting.pdf

Above is a link to the meeting minutes from the January meeting.

I see no conspiracy. Looks like all but a couple associations were present.

To my knowledge we have had no complaints from a coach/manager/parent from D9 that got bumped by this. Maybe they have been paid off?

Also no indication there was a discussion or asking for opinions.

I love this. The reps from each assn attending meetings are free to speak. That's why they come to the meeting.

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

There has been plenty of talk around the rinks about how shady this looks. The other D9 teams had no idea if the Red teams were in districts well into January. I say don't cry sour grapes but next year have Mankato, Owatonna and whoever else wants to play a tougher schedule do as Rochester and play an independent schedule. Don't wayste your time playing Rochester Gold or Black let someone else develope their teams.

Little red riding hood, are you saying that you sufficiently in the know of a D9 association that went to the D9 meetings in the beginning of the season and the issue of Rochester Red playing in districts was not talked about at all?

If this is true, I think that it should have been.

To your last point, I would applaud Mankato and Owatonna from going independent from D9 if they have teams that are not served by playing the competition in D9 and let their B1 teams play A at that level.

[frederick61]

There has been plenty of talk around the rinks about how shady this looks. The other D9 teams had no idea if the Red teams were in districts well into January. I say don't cry sour grapes but next year have Mankato, Owatonna and whoever else wants to play a tougher schedule do as Rochester and play an independent schedule. Don't wayste your time playing Rochester Gold or Black let someone else develope their teams.

Well said.

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

There has been plenty of talk around the rinks about how shady this looks. The other D9 teams had no idea if the Red teams were in districts well into January. I say don't cry sour grapes but next year have Mankato, Owatonna and whoever else wants to play a tougher schedule do as Rochester and play an independent schedule. Don't wayste your time playing Rochester Gold or Black let someone else develope their teams.

Well said.

Fred, you support having Mankato and Owatonna go independent?

[dogeatdog1]

There has been plenty of talk around the rinks about how shady this looks. The other D9 teams had no idea if the Red teams were in districts well into January. I say don't cry sour grapes but next year have Mankato, Owatonna and whoever else wants to play a tougher schedule do as Rochester and play an independent schedule. Don't wayste your time playing Rochester Gold or Black let someone else develope their teams.

Little red riding hood, are you saying that you sufficiently in the know of a D9 association that went to the D9 meetings in the beginning of the season and the issue of Rochester Red playing in districts was not talked about at all?

If this is true, I think that it should have been.

To your last point, I would applaud Mankato and Owatonna from going independent from D9 if they have teams that are not served by playing the competition in D9 and let their B1 teams play A at that level.

Nice advice Why don't you start a AAA teir two team and leave MN hockey? You coud form your own league heck you would already have three teams. Then petition D9 into coming back for playoffs. I am sure that they would like to support that. Did Red pay any D9 fees for the year? Did they support D9 officials by using them? Again legitimate?'s that I don't care to look up. If not how can they come back in to play in the district playoffs?

[silentbutdeadly3139]

You brought up the argument that there was no indication of discussion or asking for opinions to support your point. No one else did.

Is everything an argument to you? All I did was make an observation that there are no indications from the minutes if this was discussed, voted on, a study etc. just a mention that Red was in district tournament. Because no one else brought it up I'm wrong ?

Little red riding hood, ....

Nice, are your true colors starting to show ? stay classy.

[frederick61]

Concerned Hockey Coach wrote:
“There are 3 or 4 spots for regionals…plenty of room for everyone.”

The Northfield kids, coaches and parents played a whole D9 season and won the East Division. Why are they seeded #2 in the East behind Rochester Red who played no games in the East Division. Explain why it makes sense to reward the Red team when they mailed in their credentials?

Northfield has worked hard over the years to keep a viable A team going. I often watched they hang in there with just 10 kids and win. Three years ago, in a D8 play-in game at Lakeville Hasse Arena, they beat Farmington skating 9 kids to Farmington’s 13.

This year they have numbers (more than 10 players), talent, and community interest (their tourney attracted some good teams this year). Without the Rochester Red in the tourney, they had a good chance to make the regionals. That would have been a big thing for Northfield’s program, to have their peewee A team playing in the regionals.

They can still get there, but there is less opportunity, not “plenty of room for everyone” since the Red are sure to take one of the three regional seeds. Northfield, as the District’s #2 East seed (instead of their earned #1 seed), also has a more difficult path. You tell those kids who have worked hard all year that their spot was given by adults to a team that is too good to play in your division.

This is not fair. It is ugly and it stinks

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

Concerned Hockey Coach wrote:
“There are 3 or 4 spots for regionals…plenty of room for everyone.”

The Northfield kids, coaches and parents played a whole D9 season and won the East Division. Why are they seeded #2 in the East behind Rochester Red who played no games in the East Division. Explain why it makes sense to reward the Red team when they mailed in their credentials?

Northfield has worked hard over the years to keep a viable A team going. I often watched they hang in there with just 10 kids and win. Three years ago, in a D8 play-in game at Lakeville Hasse Arena, they beat Farmington skating 9 kids to Farmington’s 13.

This year they have numbers (more than 10 players), talent, and community interest (their tourney attracted some good teams this year). Without the Rochester Red in the tourney, they had a good chance to make the regionals. That would have been a big thing for Northfield’s program, to have their peewee A team playing in the regionals.

They can still get there, but there is less opportunity, not “plenty of room for everyone” since the Red are sure to take one of the three regional seeds. Northfield, as the District’s #2 East seed (instead of their earned #1 seed), also has a more difficult path. You tell those kids who have worked hard all year that their spot was given by adults to a team that is too good to play in your division.

This is not fair. It is ugly and it stinks

This is my biggest beef with you. I don't think there should be any effort made to make sure that kids who work hard get to go to regionals. The best teams should go. Period.

How do you know Northfield has worked harder than Red Wing, or Owatonna, or Rochester? You don't. The regional tournament is not for teams or associations that work hard, they are for the best teams.

Who is to say that Northfield can't make regionals still? Seems to me that Rochester and Mankato would be in a class above them, but they could still beat one of them... but if they can't be the 3rd team out of that district... do you, someone who watches umpteen PeeWee teams, believe they will be even close to as good as any regional team not in the South Division?

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

Nice advice Why don't you start a AAA teir two team and leave MN hockey? You coud form your own league heck you would already have three teams. Then petition D9 into coming back for playoffs. I am sure that they would like to support that. Did Red pay any D9 fees for the year? Did they support D9 officials by using them? Again legitimate?'s that I don't care to look up. If not how can they come back in to play in the district playoffs?

Sigh.... ok, good one. Don't care enough to look something up and then accuse me of being the boogeyman because I had the audacity to state hte obvious - Rochester Red and Mankato's players (if they would have gone independent) were or would have been better off by not playing in D9.

I'm sorry for those of you who view making regionals more important than player development, but as a coach, its not about regionals or districts or anything other than developing your kids. Teams that get creative and do that shouldn't be barred from districts if the rest of the District goes along with it.

Fred, you know that the D9 district director is from North Mankato, the vice-president is from Red Wing, and the CIC is from Owatonna? Right? You did your homework before accusing Rochester of changing the rules (that you refuse to cite as being broken), right?

[Mnhockeys]

Perhaps some people forgot that Frederick is THE MOST respected contributor to this forum. His columns are informational and fairly stated for the best of most MH, not just one team or one association. When some people broke down Fred's quotes into piece to attack, still would not get the same credential. Saying Fred have a leg this Roch Red, is a lame and you can believe not too many people believe you.

Bullship!

Debating how big associations should organize their teams is an old and complex topic. Reasonable minds can disagree. When the discussion is constructive and mature, it's a healthy thing to do.

But that's not what has gone on here.

Fred has repeatedly stated that rules have been broken. Even though he hasn't cited any actual rules.

He has attacked a MH official. If you believe his allegations, you must also believe that the Director of D9 is either corrupt or incompetent. Fred: at any point during your tirade, did you actually contact Tom Christenson and get his side of the story? That would be the adult thing to do.

Have you found any D9 rep from any of the 15 D9 member associations that did not know before the season started that Rochester Red would be in the D9 playoffs?

Fred says that Rochester needs to contribute 3 equal A teams to D9, but ignores the fact that Mankato has one A and one B for their two high schools. (footnote: their PWB team finished 2nd in D9. Four of the other top 6 places in the PWB league went to programs that don't field an A team).

The tone of the thread has not been a healthy, open minded discussion about the challenges that all of D9 faces. It's been more about a character attack against Rochester. Led by someone who pretends to be a journalist. But hasn't actually applied any journalistic principals here.

Do we want to talk conspiracy theory. Or hockey?

Bullwhat? Tell us you are you not are from the Roch association! Actually tell us you are not from the Roch Red team!!!! Don't you see Fred is NOT responding directly to your personal attacks?

[Mnhockeys]

Sure D9 allows this to happen, but what is the difference if say Fires wants to crack at D6 playoff, region and state? Even the rest of D9 teams are ok with the arrangement, teams in the regionals and states would voice their objections if (IF) Rochester Red makes that far. Maybe we all should sit back and wait until that happens.

If the Fire wanted to do that and D6 was on board with it and MN hockey allows it, who cares if anyone outside of D6 voices objections. If procedures are followed then there's nothing to complain about - at this time. If a district has a problem that another district does they can make the complaint to MN hockey in the hopes that they carry the day.

BUT if Rochester Red makes it to Regionals and then beats a team at Regionals, you think that beaten team has a leg to stand on if they complain?[/quote]

Talking about arrogance!!!!

What about your Red got beaten in the playoff, not even in the regional?

[dogeatdog1]

Concerned Hockey Coach wrote:
“There are 3 or 4 spots for regionals…plenty of room for everyone.”

The Northfield kids, coaches and parents played a whole D9 season and won the East Division. Why are they seeded #2 in the East behind Rochester Red who played no games in the East Division. Explain why it makes sense to reward the Red team when they mailed in their credentials?

Northfield has worked hard over the years to keep a viable A team going. I often watched they hang in there with just 10 kids and win. Three years ago, in a D8 play-in game at Lakeville Hasse Arena, they beat Farmington skating 9 kids to Farmington’s 13.

This year they have numbers (more than 10 players), talent, and community interest (their tourney attracted some good teams this year). Without the Rochester Red in the tourney, they had a good chance to make the regionals. That would have been a big thing for Northfield’s program, to have their peewee A team playing in the regionals.

They can still get there, but there is less opportunity, not “plenty of room for everyone” since the Red are sure to take one of the three regional seeds. Northfield, as the District’s #2 East seed (instead of their earned #1 seed), also has a more difficult path. You tell those kids who have worked hard all year that their spot was given by adults to a team that is too good to play in your division.

This is not fair. It is ugly and it stinks

This is my biggest beef with you. I don't think there should be any effort made to make sure that kids who work hard get to go to regionals. The best teams should go. Period.

How do you know Northfield has worked harder than Red Wing, or Owatonna, or Rochester? You don't. The regional tournament is not for teams or associations that work hard, they are for the best teams.

Who is to say that Northfield can't make regionals still? Seems to me that Rochester and Mankato would be in a class above them, but they could still beat one of them... but if they can't be the 3rd team out of that district... do you, someone who watches umpteen PeeWee teams, believe they will be even close to as good as any regional team not in the South Division?

Even if it is for the best kids shouldn't they all have the same opportunity to play the same competiton and not get special treatment? By seeding them #1 you are giving them an unfair advantage. And do you know if they paid district dues? that ? is still out there.

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

BUT if Rochester Red makes it to Regionals and then beats a team at Regionals, you think that beaten team has a leg to stand on if they complain?[/quote]

Talking about arrogance!!!!

What about your Red got beaten in the playoff, not even in the regional?

That was about a different point when Fred was talking about grievances.

I'm NOT from Rochester, read my other posts please and do not cherrypick.

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

Even if it is for the best kids shouldn't they all have the same opportunity to play the same competiton and not get special treatment? By seeding them #1 you are giving them an unfair advantage. And do you know if they paid district dues? that ? is still out there.

That's admittedly tough and a fair point to raise. I guess is it "fair" to have them be the last seed and then force Mankato to play them first round or to have Faribault or someone play them in a play-in game?

I presume the D9 folks worked this through and I will leave it to them to work out the tough issues.

[dogeatdog1]

I'm sorry for those of you who view making regionals more important than player development, but as a coach, its not about regionals or districts or anything other than developing your kids. Teams that get creative and do that shouldn't be barred from districts if the rest of the District goes along with it.


IT AINT ABOUT DEVELOPMENT with you if it was you would play your super schedule and step aside why do you have to go to Regionals if that is not what it is about? Again special people looking for special favors...