Is Rochester Red the 12th team in the D9 Peewee A playoffs?

frederick61 · Post by **frederick61** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:56 pm

Last week, the D9 playoff format was changed from an 8-team format to a 12-team format (6 teams from the East Division and 6 teams from the West Division). The 12-teams will be seeded this Thursday.

The problem is that D9 had only 11 teams playing a regular D9 schedule at the peewee A level. So who is the 12th team? The only other peewee A team in D9 is the Rochester Red who have played an independent schedule and no regular season D9 games. Under Minnesota Hockey rules that eliminates the Rochester Red from the tourney.

The seeding will be done this Thursday, February 10th with the play-in games to be done by February 15th. This whole process seems timed to avoid any protests, but D4 and D8 should protest. Unless they agree with the Rochester Red folk who want to split the peewee A level into a AA and A tourney.

Talk about being selfish. The whole thing smells.

This move by D9 really spoils the idea of developing kids at a peewee A level in Minnesota. The Rochester Red team knowingly went out and played an independent schedule. They should not be allowed in the Regional and State tourneys.

Mnhockeys · Post by **Mnhockeys** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:03 pm

Agreed ... Rochester Red did not play regular D9 league games, should not be allowed in D9 league playoff.

oldtimer64 · Post by **oldtimer64** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:11 am

Yes Rochester Red is the 12th. They were told at the beginning of the season that they would be allowed to play in districts.

frederick61 · Post by **frederick61** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:44 am

If they were told that at the beginning of the season, why did D9 publish a tournament format a few weeks ago that had an 8 team tourney that excluded them and just changed the format to a 12 team this week? Something is not right here.

The Rochester Association had a chance to build hockey southeastern Minnesota and they are not doing so by putting their own long standing goals first.

All they had to do was play some agreed minimal D9 schedule to qualify. They couldn't do even that.

oldtimer64 · Post by **oldtimer64** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:53 am

I don't have the answer to that. All I know is from a couple of parents on the Red team have told me. They were told they could play.

Mnhockeys · Post by **Mnhockeys** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:11 am

This surely sets a bad example if it is allowed. What happens to the other teams in D9 who get beat by the Red team in playoff? In case the team makes far in playoff, regional and state, it will become a bigger issue.

frederick61 · Post by **frederick61** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:31 am

Before the format was switched, the following teams had made the double elimination tourney. In the East; the #1 seed was Northfield, #2 seed was Dodge County, the #3 seed was Rochester Black and the #4 seed was Rochester Gold. In the West; the #1 seed was Mankato, #2 seed Owatonna, #3 seed New Ulm, and the #4 seed Albert Lea. Austin and Red Wing were out of the playoffs in the East and Faribault was out of the playoffs in the West.

Now Austin, Red Wing, and Faribault are back in the playoffs. Austin would likely get the East #5 seed and Red Wing the East #6 seed. The Rochester Red, if the “seeders” go by strength of schedule can be seeded as high as #1 in the West. If they just add the Red to the West seeds, they could be seeded #6 and Faribault #5.

If you use the latter case, then you would have the following play-in games; Albert Lea/Austin, Rochester Black/Rochester Red, Rochester Gold/Faribault, and New Ulm/Red Wing. Albert Lea, Rochester Black, Rochester Gold, and New Ulm, all teams that had made the double elimination tourney under the previously published D9 8-team format have to win to gate to the double elimination tourney under the 12 team format.

Albert Lea, Rochester Black, Rochester Gold, and New Ulm's only crime is that they played by the rules.

The Rochester Black and Rochester Gold are very vulnerable and could lose that first game. New Ulm has lost twice to Red Wing this year.

The whole thing smells. The Rochester Red did not have the D9 playoffs on their schedule a few days ago. To add to the insult, it would not be a surprise if the seeders put Rochester Red #1 or #2 in the West. The Rochester Red never played one D9 game.

Concerned Hockey Coach · Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:21 am

Frederick61, I agree with you that if they are changing the rules now, something smells. HOWEVER, I presume that D9 has addressed this procedurally and that all the associations involved were present. Until I know more, I'm going to assume that everyone is on board with the change. If that's the case, who are we to judge?

I think this is an example of a larger issue. Rochester Red clearly went to an Independent Schedule so it wouldn't have to play 24 of its 40 games against teams that do not challenge them. Here's what I'm talking about.

In order of current rank in their District divisions: (Myhockey Ranking and relevant losses)

Northfield (No. 76, losses to Johnson Como and Faribault)
Dodge County (No. 93, losses to Sibley and Crow River 0-11)
Rochester Bl. (No. 96, losses to Mound 0-4, Tartan 0-11)
Rochester G. (No. 95, losses to Centennial (0-12, Champlin 0-7, Rogers 0-9)
Austin (No. 101, losses to Orono 1-10, Crow River 0-10)
Red Wing (80's, losses to Orono 0-15, Shakopee 0-11)

Other division:

Mankato (No. 55, losses to Spring Lake 0-, Eastview 2-7)
Luverne (No. 66, losses to Como Johnson, Shakopee, FL)
Owatonna (No. 62, losses to Jefferson 0-5, Lakeville S. 3-10)
New Ulm (No. 91, losses to St. Louis Park, Bl. Kennedy)
Albert Lea (No. 99, losses to Centennial 1-15, Champlin 0-11)
Faribault (No. 97, losses to Tartan 0-8, Johnson Como 0-6)

Now, Myhockey Rankings aren't the be all end all, but they are as good as you can get in my experience seeing teams play this year. The scores don't lie.

Without knowing anything regarding Rochester, it appears that Rochester's best players didn't want to spend 50% or greater of their time playing the above teams and thus went independent.

The two other Rochester teams that normally are B1 saw that they would be able to compete in D9 with the A teams, and Rochester made it happen.

Everyone appears to have been well served by the deal... if D9 recognizes this and allowed Roch. Red back in for playoff purposes, no problem with me.

frederick61 · Post by **frederick61** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:21 am

If the level of competition was such an issue, why does the Rochester Red want to play the same D9 teams in a tourney now? The D9 playoffs mean more to the 150 kids playing on those teams then it does to the 17 Rochester kids and their parents.

Obviously, the Red had disdain for those eleven teams (two of which are teams in their own association) last fall when they said to the 11 teams in effect "we are better then you and we need to develop by playing better teams".

The fact that the Red denied 11 D9 teams the opportunity to improve themselves by playing a better team (the Red) never occurred to the Rochester people involved. It is called being selfish.

Is that the teaching moment that the Red adults involved in the program want to pass on to their kids. We are better and we can break the rules and we can get away with it.

And as far as spurring interest in the sport that cost significant money in places like Austin, Albert Lea, and New Ulm, it doesn't. It leaves a bad taste in the mouths of those parents, kids, and coaches by demonstrating the rules to not apply to Rochester.

frederick61 · Post by **frederick61** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:16 pm

Today, D9 combined all 11 teams regular season D9 records in a single league and posted the result on their site. They have eliminated the East and West divisions in the process. They are again changing the rules to accommodate Rochester Red. They can now seed all twelve teams from 1-12 and totally ignore the having to the seed the Red as a West division team (the other two Rochester teams played in the East Division).

The problem is D9 now has is that their updated 12-team tourney format just released has teams scheduled to play by East and West seeds.

Concerned Hockey Coach · Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:26 pm

frederick61 wrote:If the level of competition was such an issue, why does the Rochester Red want to play the same D9 teams in a tourney now? The D9 playoffs mean more to the 150 kids playing on those teams then it does to the 17 Rochester kids and their parents.

Obviously, the Red had disdain for those eleven teams (two of which are teams in their own association) last fall when they said to the 11 teams in effect "we are better then you and we need to develop by playing better teams".

The fact that the Red denied 11 D9 teams the opportunity to improve themselves by playing a better team (the Red) never occurred to the Rochester people involved. It is called being selfish.

Is that the teaching moment that the Red adults involved in the program want to pass on to their kids. We are better and we can break the rules and we can get away with it.

And as far as spurring interest in the sport that cost significant money in places like Austin, Albert Lea, and New Ulm, it doesn't. It leaves a bad taste in the mouths of those parents, kids, and coaches by demonstrating the rules to not apply to Rochester.

Frederick61 - You are kind of the godfather of PeeWee A hockey so I do not express any views on this subject without due deference and respect, but I must humbly disagree with your points. Do you have insider information that we don't know about? Rochester Red PeeWee A players can't pick which District they play in. Last year they were in District 8 I believe, which proved great competition and they went to Regionals. This year they were placed in a District that is not as good as District 6, 3, or 8's (probably others) B1 districts.

Youth hockey is about development, not beating up on district teams 10-0 on a regular basis.

"Disdain?" I think they just knew reality... and I doubt the other teams in D9 cared that they didn't have to play Rochester Red in Districts and see them be 24-0 and completely out of touch in the standings all year.

Again, if you have insider information that suggests that District 9 didn't properly handle this procedurally, please share. Until that information is posted, I think the critical rhetoric is all premature and assumes too much.

Oh and in response to your question that said: "If the level of competition was such an issue, why does the Rochester Red want to play the same D9 teams in a tourney now?" I think the easy answer is that Rochester Red wants a crack at the other teams in MN through the regional process.

Mnhockeys · Post by **Mnhockeys** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:51 pm

Sure D9 allows this to happen, but what is the difference if say Fires wants to crack at D6 playoff, region and state? Even the rest of D9 teams are ok with the arrangement, teams in the regionals and states would voice their objections if (IF) Rochester Red makes that far. Maybe we all should sit back and wait until that happens.

Concerned Hockey Coach · Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:09 pm

Mnhockeys wrote:Sure D9 allows this to happen, but what is the difference if say Fires wants to crack at D6 playoff, region and state? Even the rest of D9 teams are ok with the arrangement, teams in the regionals and states would voice their objections if (IF) Rochester Red makes that far. Maybe we all should sit back and wait until that happens.

If the Fire wanted to do that and D6 was on board with it and MN hockey allows it, who cares if anyone outside of D6 voices objections. If procedures are followed then there's nothing to complain about - at this time. If a district has a problem that another district does they can make the complaint to MN hockey in the hopes that they carry the day.

BUT if Rochester Red makes it to Regionals and then beats a team at Regionals, you think that beaten team has a leg to stand on if they complain?

frederick61 · Post by **frederick61** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:30 pm

My understanding is that the District Director for D9 has the authority to authorize a team playing in their playoffs. In the past associations (most recently was Buffalo a few years ago) have tried to do what the Red are doing. But the District Director denied them.

However, one can file a grievance against the Red with Minnesota to get the team thrown out. It is usually filed from someone inside the district. Now there is no time. The seeds will be posted late Thursday or Friday and the games played by the following Tuesday. That is a four day period.

What really makes this stink is that D9 has "sprung" this change and makes it almost impossible for any grievance to be filed. They provided no indication until early this week as to what their intent was and as a result how do you get a grievance filed so quickly.

This situation was described as a possible problem in my November post on Let's Play Hockey. There had been no indication that this change would happen until this week.

Concerned Hockey Coach · Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:45 pm

Well is someone wants to file a grievance hopefully they are doing it today and Minnesota Hockey acts quickly. I'd be interested in knowing the grounds by which MN hockey could throw them out IF MN hockey gives the District Directors the authority to do this.

I certainly don't blame Rochester Red, however, for leaving their District and playing an independent schedule. Hopefully this sends a message to MN Hockey that the future could look a lot like this if efforts are not made to allow for associations to get their players adequate competition. If there were only 8 teams or less, perhaps it would be ok, but when there are 12 teams that's going to be over 50% of your games played against well below average PeeWee A teams.

Turn you back on this problem, MN Hockey, and you're going to allow AAA programs to jump in and serve the kids you are not serving.

Chalk_Talk · Post by **Chalk_Talk** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:54 pm

This is a joke that Roch can do this...."our good team is too good for D9, you can compete with our A2 teams" I think if you look at the Red teams results, I believe they lost to Mankato twice.

This is one reason why Minnesota hockey is going down the crapper. Who is the next team that wants to play an independent schedule and still qualify for playoffs?

oldtimer64 · Post by **oldtimer64** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:57 pm

This NO CONSPIRACY! All assoctiations in D9 signed off on letting Rochester Red not play the regular season. They all knew "RED" would be back at playoff time. D9 has the chance to send 4 teams to regions this year.

Concerned Hockey Coach · Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:02 pm

Chalk_Talk wrote:This is a joke that Roch can do this...."our good team is too good for D9, you can compete with our A2 teams" I think if you look at the Red teams results, I believe they lost to Mankato twice.

This is one reason why Minnesota hockey is going down the crapper. Who is the next team that wants to play an independent schedule and still qualify for playoffs?

What about if they had last year's team this year? I've seen Roch Red play this year and they are good, a top 35-30 team, but not the top 15 team from last year.

How is MN hockey going down the crapper? Please explain how this is such a travesty?

Do you seriously believe that D9 is anything other than bottom of the barrel PeeWee A hockey? Or do you dispute that a good B1 team from Districts 3, 6, or 8 could beat many if not most of the D9 A teams?

I agree 100% that the proper procedures need to be followed, but I've seen no one come out an post anything that states that D9 is doing something they are not allowed to do.

Concerned Hockey Coach · Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:02 pm

oldtimer64 wrote:This NO CONSPIRACY! All assoctiations in D9 signed off on letting Rochester Red not play the regular season. They all knew "RED" would be back at playoff time. D9 has the chance to send 4 teams to regions this year.

Thank you for some clarity!!! Just as I suspected, if true of course.

frederick61 · Post by **frederick61** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:21 pm

oldtimer64 wrote:This NO CONSPIRACY! All assoctiations in D9 signed off on letting Rochester Red not play the regular season. They all knew "RED" would be back at playoff time. D9 has the chance to send 4 teams to regions this year.

If all the D9 teams and the D9 leaders knew that the Red would be back for playoffs, then why post an 8-team peewee A playoff that specifically eliminated them. If Rochester Red knew they would be in the D9 playoffs, why did the Reds February schedule last week make no reference to the Red playing in the D9 playoffs. If the D9 teams signed off on the Red not being in the regular season league play, did they all sign on to the Red playing in the playoffs?

Something stinks.

Chalk_Talk · Post by **Chalk_Talk** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:37 pm

Concerned Hockey Coach wrote:
Chalk_Talk wrote:This is a joke that Roch can do this...."our good team is too good for D9, you can compete with our A2 teams" I think if you look at the Red teams results, I believe they lost to Mankato twice.

This is one reason why Minnesota hockey is going down the crapper. Who is the next team that wants to play an independent schedule and still qualify for playoffs?
What about if they had last year's team this year? I've seen Roch Red play this year and they are good, a top 35-30 team, but not the top 15 team from last year.

How is MN hockey going down the crapper? Please explain how this is such a travesty?

Do you seriously believe that D9 is anything other than bottom of the barrel PeeWee A hockey? Or do you dispute that a good B1 team from Districts 3, 6, or 8 could beat many if not most of the D9 A teams?

I agree 100% that the proper procedures need to be followed, but I've seen no one come out an post anything that states that D9 is doing something they are not allowed to do.

MN hockey is loosing it's triditions like, kids playing for thier school pride and kids playing with thier neighbors. Now kids are going to private schools, AAA coaches recruiting kids to their association, associations controlling MN hockey. What is next?? These are some of the things that are causing the beginning of the end. That is what is going down the crapper. I have watched it all happen. Didn't happen when I was playing. Grass is always greener

D9 as a whole might be towards the bottom of the barrel, but there are a few good teams that can compete with each other, but some are too good to stick around. How do you get to the top when you have associations that think they are too good for the rest??? Beat them oh wait that is happeing already.

That strong peewee team must have crushed Kato this year, oh ya they beat them by 1, squirts same thing beat them by 1 twice. Just wondering who Roch thinks they are?? Why not help make other communites around you stronger, just run away.... Sore subject if you can't tell..thx

BadgerBob82 · Post by **BadgerBob82** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:39 pm

Fred: Go to D9 website and read the minutes from their last meeting. While they changed what was discussed then, there were always going to be play down games to get to 8 teams. The bracket was printed with 1-4 East/West seeds, but that did not mean league standings. (It mentions play down games and even says Faribault would be out with the lowest points) Roch Red was at the scheduling meeting and only Mankato wanted to play them. Nobody else wanted to. Why? Because as stated, D9 A teams (except Mankato and maybe Owatonna) are B1 level teams as compared to the rest of the world.

You got a problem with this? Be mad at District 8 for kicking Rochester out!

BadgerBob82 · Post by **BadgerBob82** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:47 pm

Chalk-Talk: I agree Mankato is a strong program and competes with Rochester. But what about the other 10 associations?

Is the goal is for Rochester to put 6 A teams into District 9 and have all 6 go 0-14 with 5 Fair Play Points?

Concerned Hockey Coach · Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:49 pm

Chalk_Talk wrote: MN hockey is loosing it's triditions, kids playing for thier school pride, kids playing with thier neighbors,kids going to private schools, AAA coaches recruiting kids to their association, associations controlling MN hockey. What is next?? This are some of the things that are causing the beginning of the end. That is what is going down the crapper. I have watched it all happen. Didn't happen when I was playing. Grass is always greener

D9 as a whole might be towards the bottom of the barrel, but there are a few good teams that can compete with each other, but they are too good to stick around., how do you get to the top we you have associations that think they are too good for the rest??? Beat them oh wait that is happeing already.

That strong peewee team must have crushed Kato this year, oh ya they beat them by 1, squirts same thing beat them by 1 twice. Just wondering who Roch thinks they are?? Why not help make other communites around you stronger, just run away.... Sore subject if you can't tell..thx

You're talking to the wrong guy... I don't think youth hockey associations exist to create good HS hockey teams, they exist to develop players and to do that you can't have 24 games on your schedule where only 3 or 4 games (or less) are competitive games... Rochester is looking out for its own and that's what it should do. It owes nothing to other associations.

You never answered my question with regard to last year and Rochester Red... who would have beaten every team in D9 this year by 4-15 goals... I saw them play on numerous occasions...

MN Hockey can't just throw districts together without considering the competitive repercussions of creating districts without taking competition in mind.

Chalk_Talk · Post by **Chalk_Talk** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:52 pm

BadgerBob82 wrote:Chalk-Talk: I agree Mankato is a strong program and competes with Rochester. But what about the other 10 associations?

Is the goal is for Rochester to put 6 A teams into District 9 and have all 6 go 0-14 with 5 Fair Play Points?

Sorry to answer your question with another question, But should Mankato try and jump ship also?