Wisconsin Fire

[Quasar]

As for tier 1 improving anyone, it will a very small amount but mostly just be a costlier and more selective alternative to association hockey. It's like country club golf, the top golfers pay more to be able to play there but are no better than the those who play on a municipal course, they just get to say they're members of a country club and that means a heck of a lot more to the adults than the kids. Look no further than the MnJHL, most of their kids are no better than the top third of high school kids, their best teams wouldn't win the high school state title and their worst wouldn't beat many high school teams yet bestowing on them the title junior hockey player makes them somehow better? It doesn't, it's just a label. For AAA hockey to work here there somehow has top be a way around the country club/junior hockey player label that the Fire became.

The Fire was # 15 in the nation at the 97 level. Hardly Country Club golf!!
The MnJHL is exactly what Minnesota Hockey wants it to be...

Why do you feel the need to denigrate other peoples choices??
They have just as much a right to follow their dreams as you!!!

[MrBoDangles]

Your holier-than-thou "you don't understand" attitude smacks me as selfish. I've spent countless hours in the past few months for our affiliate and the consistent theme is that I see both sides of all issues.

If the system in Minnesota works for most, yeah. You're right. That also means it doesn't work for all.

Changes to the system have consequences. When I tell you that allowing Tier I will result in a lot of the theoretical Pine City kids not being chosen, the obvious reality is that some people will now be frustrated with two hockey structures: club and community.

When I tell you that municipal rinks aren't going to release ice on favorable terms, can you at least agree there is a possibility of increased costs for hockey?

Regulation is difficult. Regulation in a bifurcated environment even more so.

Picking a small association at random, how will youth hockey look in Little Falls? We used to have a nice little program. B teams at most levels, but they were all very competitive. Then the Swarm formed and our top two kids made it. After a couple years the other kids didn't have as much fun. The parents of the kids that left spent over $10,000 annually getting to tournaments in Ontario and Michigan, all so their kids could watch the 3rd period of most games. Seemed like things were better back in the good ol' days.

You obviously have a problem. I'm sorry my view on this doesn't solve your problem. Am I inconsiderate because I don't also have your problem? Am I stupid because I don't agree with your remedy and am more concerned about a platform that provides good experiences for most?

Minnesota's hockey model is very good. My opinion, shared by many across the country, is that it is the best around. I say that with the benefit of experiencing it as a player, following it closely because I know many families still there, and the knowledge that different regulatory environments are rife with other problems.

I'll come around when I see near certainty that the aggregated adverse consequences of a system predicated on choice is less than those in the state's community-based form.

It's easy to throw out questions with no wrong answer. How many Fire-type programs does Minnesota need to provide a place for all the kids that need a change of scenery?

The funny thing I just realized is that you don't need "Tier I" hockey for many of the people in "bad situations". Maybe they just need Tier II (or AA) club programs. Nobody ever seems to clamor for that. Maybe becuase the unregulated summer season provides that proxy.

Wow!
I'm still laughing at your Little Falls example........

[silentbutdeadly3139]

It's obvious you know nothing about tier 1 hockey. Even a Minnetonka (just an example) parent will 9 times out of 10 say the training is better in AAA SUMMER Hockey. Now compare the training betwwen TIER 1 and struggle to find coaches small time Hockey.

Fact is, is that most want to keep others down.

It's easy..... just open it up like the rest of FREE America.

Has anyone else noticed the the explosion of MN NHL draft picks in corellation to the explosion in MN AAA Summer Hockey???????

If training/development for your child is what your after ( at least thats what you keep saying ), couldn't you hire a qualified non-parent coach to your liking and supplement association hockey with non-association camps/training for far less than the cost of tier I, which your child may not make if it was opened up to all ?

[MrBoDangles]

It's obvious you know nothing about tier 1 hockey. Even a Minnetonka (just an example) parent will 9 times out of 10 say the training is better in AAA SUMMER Hockey. Now compare the training betwwen TIER 1 and struggle to find coaches small time Hockey.

Fact is, is that most want to keep others down.

It's easy..... just open it up like the rest of FREE America.

Has anyone else noticed the the explosion of MN NHL draft picks in corellation to the explosion in MN AAA Summer Hockey???????

If training/development for your child is what your after ( at least thats what you keep saying ), couldn't you hire a qualified non-parent coach to your liking and supplement association hockey with non-association camps/training for far less than the cost of tier I, which your child may not make if it was opened up to all ?

You would think they would......

Could go overload in the Summer, Not much else where I'm from in Winter.

It's all about having that option or opportunity.

[jc slammers]

I am a insider on this subject. Mn. Hockey controlls USA Hockey. Mn. Hockey does not need USA Hockey. USA Hockey needs Mn. Hockey. WAHA is a weak sister. They cower at any thing Mn. Hockey says. USA Hockey go's along with Minnesota Hockey and puts pressure on WAHA. This is a good old boy's network. It is not going to change. Minnesota Hockey has many board members on USA Hockey, in very high positions. Why would Mn. Hockey have so many high positioned board members on USA Hockey. Because USA Hockey is scared they could walk at any time. So they keep them happy. The biggest thorn in WI. Fire is Mn. Hockey. Would it hurt that much, if we lost a few players to the fire program. The problem is the Fire win and train to win and play to win. And in the far left thinking of Mn. hockey that is bad. Does it cost more, yes but Mn. hockey Assoc. rates, vol. hours etc. are not that far behind. Do the Fire parents sit around and talk about when there Jonny gets in the NHL. I asked my friend who has been with the Fire for 2 years that question, and he said that has never ever been discussed. Most of the Fire parents came from association coaching, managing and former board member back grounds. Most Fire parents still have 1 or more siblings still in assoc. hockey. Most Fire players will return to there association. What do the Fire players gain, more hours on ice, more high end training, playing with 15 players that are similiar in high skill level. Playing in the biggest tournaments in the world. Playing in the National Championships. Touring around the Great USA. Are the Fire that bad, have they had some internal problems over the years YES. If I listed all the Mn. association problems made public over the years the list would choke a horse. I say let the Fire play at all Squirt thru Bantam levels. All they do is to produce high end players. And that is what most associations mission statements were years ago to produce better people and players.

[silentbutdeadly3139]

It's obvious you know nothing about tier 1 hockey. Even a Minnetonka (just an example) parent will 9 times out of 10 say the training is better in AAA SUMMER Hockey. Now compare the training betwwen TIER 1 and struggle to find coaches small time Hockey.

Fact is, is that most want to keep others down.

It's easy..... just open it up like the rest of FREE America.

Has anyone else noticed the the explosion of MN NHL draft picks in corellation to the explosion in MN AAA Summer Hockey???????

If training/development for your child is what your after ( at least thats what you keep saying ), couldn't you hire a qualified non-parent coach to your liking and supplement association hockey with non-association camps/training for far less than the cost of tier I, which your child may not make if it was opened up to all ?

You would think they would......

Could go overload in the Summer, Not much else where I'm from in Winter.

It's all about having that option or opportunity.

"Where your from" ? if there was tier I hockey do you think a team would set up shop near your home and there wouldn't be much travel? Thats the great benefit of association hockey ... hockey near your home at a reasonable ( reasonable as can be, no profit ) price that can be augmented if a driven parent ... I mean child so chooses.

There is opportunity, don't know where your from but I think Super Rink in the north and MM in the south have winter clinics/training. If drive is too far how do you think the drive/travel would be for tier I, if your child made it ? If not be creative and hire a personal hockey trainer.

[silentbutdeadly3139]

It's obvious you know nothing about tier 1 hockey. Even a Minnetonka (just an example) parent will 9 times out of 10 say the training is better in AAA SUMMER Hockey. Now compare the training betwwen TIER 1 and struggle to find coaches small time Hockey.

Fact is, is that most want to keep others down.

It's easy..... just open it up like the rest of FREE America.

Has anyone else noticed the the explosion of MN NHL draft picks in corellation to the explosion in MN AAA Summer Hockey???????

If training/development for your child is what your after ( at least thats what you keep saying ), couldn't you hire a qualified non-parent coach to your liking and supplement association hockey with non-association camps/training for far less than the cost of tier I, which your child may not make if it was opened up to all ?

You would think they would......

Could go overload in the Summer, Not much else where I'm from in Winter.

It's all about having that option or opportunity.

I don't know u Bo but looking at your post history I quickly found this quote that seems quite ironic while you now trumpet tier I super teams

http://www.ushsho.com/forums/viewtopic. ... ht=#420823
"Nothing compares to having your hometown fire and police department escort the team bus through main street after the big game. lots of players think it's their sure shot to get to the tournament by transfering to a top private school program and end up regreting it after it never happens. I would think it would feel a little plastic even if you did make it. Sorry to offend but they don't compare."

[MrBoDangles]

If training/development for your child is what your after ( at least thats what you keep saying ), couldn't you hire a qualified non-parent coach to your liking and supplement association hockey with non-association camps/training for far less than the cost of tier I, which your child may not make if it was opened up to all ?

You would think they would......

Could go overload in the Summer, Not much else where I'm from in Winter.

It's all about having that option or opportunity.

"Where your from" ? if there was tier I hockey do you think a team would set up shop near your home and there wouldn't be much travel? Thats the great benefit of association hockey ... hockey near your home at a reasonable ( reasonable as can be, no profit ) price that can be augmented if a driven parent ... I mean child so chooses.

There is opportunity, don't know where your from but I think Super Rink in the north and MM in the south have winter clinics/training. If drive is too far how do you think the drive/travel would be for tier I, if your child made it ? If not be creative and hire a personal hockey trainer.

I know that all the practices are not there, but Somerset is a very reasonable drive. If you don't care you should just "DRVE" your kid to the local park. If your kid wants to be a Tuba player.... Do you buy him a Tuba and tell him to figure it out and be quiet in the garage?
What are the winter clinics in the far northeast metro that we can use as a filler? Thanks in advance....

[O-townClown]

Off-season hockey is essentially unregulated. Using your gymnastics example, kids can train, train, train all they want individually or in groups with instructors and play an unlimited number of games in the summer.

How many "games" do these kids have that are active in music, swimming, figure skating, and gymnastics? The truth is when you look at individual sports like that kids rarely compete. Hockey parents expect lots of games. More than one a week. It's hardly apples to apples.

If you live in Minnesota, there is a tremendous amount of hockey there. More than in any other area of the United States. What I'm now seeing is that people are crying that their needs are unmet and there is a need for Tier I hockey, when that just cloaks the real issue. For whatever reason, they are unhappy with their association and unable or unwilling to work on that relationship.

Funny thing when we visit. My son wants to skate outdoors and the kids that live there are done after 30 minutes. There are 60-75 days a year when kids can get ice time. One guy on this board will chime in with how many his family gets, and I think it is higher than that. He's made the "choice" not to have his kids in association hockey for a few years now, but they play a lot of hockey.

[MrBoDangles]

Wow silent you did a lot of reading. Lots of class! We are talking about opportunities in youth hockey..... I wish the best for MN hockey as a whole. I love seeing this state become the hockey hotbed of the world, and it is, and would improve quicker with even more options.

Our HS program is becoming a good situation.

[silentbutdeadly3139]

Wow silent you did a lot of reading. Lots of class! We are talking about opportunities in youth hockey..... I wish the best for MN hockey as a whole. I love seeing this state become the hockey hotbed of the world, and it is, and would improve quicker with even more options.

Our HS program is becoming a good situation.

Didn't take long ... a few minutes. So am I to understand quoting you is classless ? mmm I'll remember that. Just pointing out that all your arguments for HS could apply to youth and vice versa.

Well like you said its not a bad drive to Somerset so seems like you have your answer.

[MrBoDangles]

Wow silent you did a lot of reading. Lots of class! We are talking about opportunities in youth hockey..... I wish the best for MN hockey as a whole. I love seeing this state become the hockey hotbed of the world, and it is, and would improve quicker with even more options.

Our HS program is becoming a good situation.

Didn't take long ... a few minutes. So am I to understand quoting you is classless ? mmm I'll remember that. Just pointing out that all your arguments for HS could apply to youth and vice versa.

Well like you said its not a bad drive to Somerset so seems like you have your answer.

I can see from your previous posts that you have an extreme jealousy towards higher AAA summer programs. Those parents are nuts, but your not for being with a lesser program. How could those parents do all that, you say. Most Hockey parents that don't have their kids play AAA say the same about you. Are you nuts? I don't think so...... Your probably just trying to give your kids all the tools to be successful in life. When our kids don't make the NHL they will still have great friends(connections), a great game to teach others and memories to last a lifetime.

[silentbutdeadly3139]

Wow silent you did a lot of reading. Lots of class! We are talking about opportunities in youth hockey..... I wish the best for MN hockey as a whole. I love seeing this state become the hockey hotbed of the world, and it is, and would improve quicker with even more options.

Our HS program is becoming a good situation.

Didn't take long ... a few minutes. So am I to understand quoting you is classless ? mmm I'll remember that. Just pointing out that all your arguments for HS could apply to youth and vice versa.

Well like you said its not a bad drive to Somerset so seems like you have your answer.

I can see from your previous posts that you have an extreme jealousy towards higher AAA summer programs. Those parents are nuts, but your not for being with a lesser program. How could those parents do all that, you say. Most Hockey parents that don't have their kids play AAA say the same about you. Are you nuts? I don't think so...... Your probably just trying to give your kids all the tools to be successful in life. When our kids don't make the NHL they will still have great friends(connections), a great game to teach others and memories to last a lifetime.

You were talking about winter/association youth hockey not summer AAA/Tier I ... theres a big difference.

Besides, you mis-analyzed my posts. Extreme resentment? far cry from it, I think its great. My kid is not at that level, both he and I know that ( he calls them "beasts" which is funny to hear when describing a youth hockey player ) but has friends that play at that level and has also played against some of them so we appreciate their talent and teams but not jealous of it at all. Those parents aren't nuts there just taking an opportunity presented to them. Sometimes I think I'm nuts for taking some of the hockey opportunities presented to us. As for association hockey I am a fan of it, we aren't the biggest or the best but it provides a place for my kids to have fun at a somewhat reasonable cost.

[MrBoDangles]

Didn't take long ... a few minutes. So am I to understand quoting you is classless ? mmm I'll remember that. Just pointing out that all your arguments for HS could apply to youth and vice versa.

Well like you said its not a bad drive to Somerset so seems like you have your answer.

I can see from your previous posts that you have an extreme jealousy towards higher AAA summer programs. Those parents are nuts, but your not for being with a lesser program. How could those parents do all that, you say. Most Hockey parents that don't have their kids play AAA say the same about you. Are you nuts? I don't think so...... Your probably just trying to give your kids all the tools to be successful in life. When our kids don't make the NHL they will still have great friends(connections), a great game to teach others and memories to last a lifetime.

You were talking about winter/association youth hockey not summer AAA/Tier I ... theres a big difference.

Besides, you mis-analyzed my posts. Extreme resentment? far cry from it, I think its great. My kid is not at that level, both he and I know that ( he calls them "beasts" which is funny to hear when describing a youth hockey player ) but has friends that play at that level and has also played against some of them so we appreciate their talent and teams but not jealous of it at all. Those parents aren't nuts there just taking an opportunity presented to them. Sometimes I think I'm nuts for taking some of the hockey opportunities presented to us. As for association hockey I am a fan of it, we aren't the biggest or the best but it provides a place for my kids to have fun at a somewhat reasonable cost.

We can all go back and forth, but the only real difference is the situation we are in.

[DMom]

I can see from your previous posts that you have an extreme jealousy towards higher AAA summer programs. Those parents are nuts, but your not for being with a lesser program. How could those parents do all that, you say. Most Hockey parents that don't have their kids play AAA say the same about you. Are you nuts? I don't think so...... Your probably just trying to give your kids all the tools to be successful in life. When our kids don't make the NHL they will still have great friends(connections), a great game to teach others and memories to last a lifetime.

You were talking about winter/association youth hockey not summer AAA/Tier I ... theres a big difference.

Besides, you mis-analyzed my posts. Extreme resentment? far cry from it, I think its great. My kid is not at that level, both he and I know that ( he calls them "beasts" which is funny to hear when describing a youth hockey player ) but has friends that play at that level and has also played against some of them so we appreciate their talent and teams but not jealous of it at all. Those parents aren't nuts there just taking an opportunity presented to them. Sometimes I think I'm nuts for taking some of the hockey opportunities presented to us. As for association hockey I am a fan of it, we aren't the biggest or the best but it provides a place for my kids to have fun at a somewhat reasonable cost.

We can all go back and forth, but the only real difference is the situation we are in.

But if they don't offer A or B in your association, you can have your pick of associations (or is the rule that it has to geographically touch your own association?) So, a kid doesn't have to stay home and play for a B or C team if they don't want to. Go tryout in a neighboring association, I think it's still less driving than Tier 1 would be. Not that I have a problem with one team like the Fire. Good outlet for people, but anymore begins to threaten association hockey. Considering how summer hockey has turned out here in Minnesota (with A, B and C level "AAA" teams) why wouldn't Tier 1 end up the same? I think it was more about Mr. McBain's interest in the Fire that has caused some of the issues.
Didn't one of the teams spend a whole season practicing at the Made? Before that I don't think anyone really cared if some kids were happier playing for the Fire and I know very few complained when these skilled kids landed back in their association after their time with the Fire was over.

[jancze5]

The only way AAA winter hockey would succeed in Minnesota would be under extremely strict regulatory guidance from MNHOCK.
I've watched Tier 1 programs run crazy and I've also been part of programs that were run by great people (FIRE).

It's not too far fetched that if Minnesota went Tier 1 that a Western Division of the MWEHL could form fairly easily. If you already include the 3 other Wisconsin teams, add 4 Metro Teams (Bernie's boys-Fire in the East-Super rink team-and 1 out of Plymouth), consider a team out of Fargo/Moorhead (Stars), toss in Shattuck at the Bantam level, and you suddenly have an 8-9 team league that wouldn't need to "travel" with airfare and thousands of dollars of traveling. You play "festival" weekends 2 x a month, go to 4 tournaments and suddenly you've got 50+ games of driveable hockey. The ONLY way this works is if Minnesota has their fist on the pulse of this league and doesn't let costs and fees get out of control.

Otherwise, the system here really ain't that bad..if you're awesome, you play A...if you're 14 and awesome you play Varsity (see Jordan Schroeder)

[getoveryourbadself]

Otherwise, the system here really ain't that bad..if you're awesome, you play A...if you're 14 and awesome you play Varsity (see Jordan Schroeder)

That's just flat out idealistic thinking. You mean you can't think of a single instance in your association where a kid that clearly deserved to make an A team did not?

I also disagree with O'town - maybe it's the good ol' boys network (ie the board) that's not willing to work on relationships with it's members. We have been a part of hockey in multiple states. It's been our experience (not always, but in general) that many of the boards are made up of individuals that are there only to defend and support their own self interests (their kids and their friends kids) not the development of all. NO, we are not malcontents - in fact, we do more volunteer work and fundraising than most and just keep our mouths shut and go along.

Just being the devils advocate here -- we don't all live in the 100- acre woods where everyone just gets along, where you can run for the board (and get on it) when you don't think things are done right, where all the deserving kids get on the A teams. Hiding under a cloak of "my kid isn't getting the development he needs" is partially out of necessity - seems like whenever someone complains, they are labeled as a malcontent. Is it possible they might have a valid point or two? Shouldn't they have options - if they have the money to spend to go elsewhere, they should have the choice. Perhaps if the associations had to compete, they would work harder to provide a better product.

[StillAnEagle]

...If you live in Minnesota, there is a tremendous amount of hockey there. More than in any other area of the United States. What I'm now seeing is that people are crying that their needs are unmet and there is a need for Tier I hockey, when that just cloaks the real issue. For whatever reason, they are unhappy with their association and unable or unwilling to work on that relationship.....

Just for the record Clown, I'm not unsatisfied at all. I grew up in MN's system and felt it served my needs just fine. I was just raising the question or even just wanting to see some hard facts. I didn't realize it was going to get this hot in here.

[StillAnEagle]

BTW folks, I think I started this firestorm (no pun intended) so I apologize. My original question had something to do with the ratio of Minnesota Hockey vs Tier 1 kids in the NHL draft. And it was a question purely from a statistical/analytical perspective and the desire to determine which produces more draft pics.

I love the MN hockey system. But I say that as someone who grew up in a large program and made the A team and varsity. I realize that not everyone shared or shares my positive experience. I think the youth program in a large program here has it's fair share of games and practices - more than plenty to develop during the winter season to your full potential (but those are just my feelings).

High school is a different subject though. If I could change 2 things they would be: 1) A longer season in which more games could be played (say Oct to April) - as opposed to playing more games in the time we already have. I realize this WON'T happen though as the season has to line up with the MSHSL. 2) the option to play non conference games against Tier 1 teams and to be able to participate in the national tourament. Even without these 2 I feel my HS experience was a positive and competetive experience.

[O-townClown]

It's not too far fetched that if Minnesota went Tier 1 that a Western Division of the MWEHL could form fairly easily. If you already include the 3 other Wisconsin teams, add 4 Metro Teams (Bernie's boys-Fire in the East-Super rink team-and 1 out of Plymouth), consider a team out of Fargo/Moorhead (Stars), toss in Shattuck at the Bantam level, and you suddenly have an 8-9 team league that wouldn't need to "travel" with airfare and thousands of dollars of traveling. You play "festival" weekends 2 x a month, go to 4 tournaments and suddenly you've got 50+ games of driveable hockey. The ONLY way this works is if Minnesota has their fist on the pulse of this league and doesn't let costs and fees get out of control.

Very true. So suppose this happens. It doesn't begin to address the scores of kids cited by Bo that try out and are cut from these teams. If folks think this is a panacea because their kid will make the team most of them are wrong. Putting those teams where you did - where many of the best players are - creates teams that are populated by kids from Edina, Eden Prairie, Wayzata, White Bear, Centennial, Woodbury, Minnetonka, Blaine, and other mega-associations where people seem to agree that the kids are already taken care of.

Do you think Tier I is necessary for the other crowd, those that say families need to have protection or an "out" from their association if it doesn't work for them? It seems like that is remedied simply by a Tier II club option. As I've said earlier, I don't know where these teams get ice when an association gets first dibs at the municipal rinks.

If people want "the market to decide" rather than regulation, recognize you are looking at a real unfair battle. Established associations whose boundaries align with the municipalities that own the facilities are about three legs up on any avant-garde, dare we say renegade, program when it comes to practice times.

[Quasar]

Tier 1 is about a choice for kids with exceptional talent. It has nothing to do with association hockey. It is a choice for a few kids and their parents.

People like the Clown really don't have a clue. They just keep bringing the argument around to the greater good.

The Fire is a success story against all odds. That level of play should be available to any kid in Minnesota that wants it.

[O-townClown]

People like the Clown really don't have a clue.

Yes, mired up to my neck in Tier I rules, Tier II rules, and utterly befuddled about how to enforce them or whether they work as intended, I am the one that has no clue.

[HockeyDad41]

I just think it's interesting that the most posts in this thread telling hockey parents in Minnesota that they shouldn't get what they want (a choice) is from some clown from Florida.

[new2coachin]

I just think it's interesting that the most posts in this thread telling hockey parents in Minnesota that they shouldn't get what they want (a choice) is from some clown from Florida.

That's because alot of people have the "grass is greener on the other side of the fence" mentality, and OTC has knowledge of the other side of the fence & is trying to explain to everyone that Minnesota has the greenest side of the fence, WAKE UP!

[HockeyDad41]

Gimme a break. This isn't a grass is greener issue. This is a control issue.