Wisconsin Fire

[MrBoDangles]

For them, it's all about keeping others down.

Wow, do you and I ever have a different world view. I've never sensed that anyone has ever tried to hold people down as it relates to hockey. Well, beyond the parent that thinks somehow artificially propping up their kid helps some way.

Who is being "kept down" by people that want to keep them down?

To this point it is evident that you are clearly agitated that Minnesota Hockey's "best for most" approach doesn't place your perception of your needs above those of all others. Now The Man is out to get ya'?

Where does this come from?

Being that you're in Florida you might not see it.

In Minnesota you will hear parents degrade other parents for playing AAA summer hockey. Why? because they don't want the kid to get ahead of theirs. You then see their own kids playing AAA the next summer.

I know a guy from Edina.... He used to always bad mouth the Fire program. WHY..........? His kid played for the Fire last year.

It's the Amazing Race on steroids up here.

You are clueless.......... The folks that have READ THE LAST 10 PAGES know that now.



Stick with the Florida Hockey Forum

[SECoach]

ALL credible research shows that very, very, very few YOUNG players can sustain the pace they are being driven on. Does more ice time make a player better? Without a doubt. Does it make them elite? Once in a while, for the player that was built to be elite from the start.quote

SEC can you give me a few of these links to look at all the research? thx

OTC, is there somewhere to look to get an idea how much ice would cost if municipalities didn't "keep the price down". just wondering how you've come up with that statement?

Sure. Start here www.admkids.com and I'll follow up with more.

ADM is only a THEORY....I'm not saying they are wrong, just that there is no proof to indicate that the ADM model is needed or will work. Only time will tell.

It's a theory backed up by research. Research by researchers with Phd that have dedicated their lives to this subject. I agree that nothing is 100% but I'll go with THEORIES rather than gut feel from dad. What do you recomend an organization like USA Hockey put their efforts into?

Virtually every major sports organization in the world has adopted this THEORY. Do a google search of Long Term Athlete Development and it will give you a snapshot of where most of the world stands on this issue.

Where is the research on more, more, more?

[SECoach]

For them, it's all about keeping others down.

Wow, do you and I ever have a different world view. I've never sensed that anyone has ever tried to hold people down as it relates to hockey. Well, beyond the parent that thinks somehow artificially propping up their kid helps some way.

Who is being "kept down" by people that want to keep them down?

To this point it is evident that you are clearly agitated that Minnesota Hockey's "best for most" approach doesn't place your perception of your needs above those of all others. Now The Man is out to get ya'?

Where does this come from?

Being that you're in Florida you might not see it.

In Minnesota you will hear parents degrade other parents for playing AAA summer hockey. Why? because they don't want the kid to get ahead of theirs. You then see their own kids playing AAA the next summer.

I know a guy from Edina.... He used to always bad mouth the Fire program. WHY? His kid played for the Fire last year.

You are clueless.......... The folks that have READ THE LAST 10 PAGES know that now

Stick with the Florida Hockey Forum

Why you gotta be like that?

[Quasar]

Sure. Start here www.admkids.com and I'll follow up with more.

ADM is only a THEORY....I'm not saying they are wrong, just that there is no proof to indicate that the ADM model is needed or will work. Only time will tell.

This is the Bio of the man that developed the concept of LTAD, which US hockey calls ADM

Istvan Balyi is a world renowned coaching educator and his series on Long-term Athlete Development (LTAD) and periodization have been published in Australia, Canada, the United States and the United Kingdom. From 1994 to 2006, he had been the resident sport scientist of the National Coaching Institute at the University of Victoria, British Columbia Canada. He has worked with 16 Canadian National Teams as high performance advisor and planning and periodization consultant for Major Games. Istvan is a member Sport Canada’s expert advisory group of Long-term Athlete Development and presently works with 17 Canadian sports to develop LTAD models.

I guess if ADM was the end all they would be doing it in Canada..

Or ..perhaps they might use some of it as it pertains to the game of hockey in Canada.

The Coach would like to follow this plan to the letter, including HPC.

That way no one has to decide upon anything for at least 5 years ...

Some good ideas... But mostly a straw man to stand in front of questioning parents ....

Just my opinion ..

[MrBoDangles]

Wow, do you and I ever have a different world view. I've never sensed that anyone has ever tried to hold people down as it relates to hockey. Well, beyond the parent that thinks somehow artificially propping up their kid helps some way.

Who is being "kept down" by people that want to keep them down?

To this point it is evident that you are clearly agitated that Minnesota Hockey's "best for most" approach doesn't place your perception of your needs above those of all others. Now The Man is out to get ya'?

Where does this come from?

Being that you're in Florida you might not see it.

In Minnesota you will hear parents degrade other parents for playing AAA summer hockey. Why? because they don't want the kid to get ahead of theirs. You then see their own kids playing AAA the next summer.

I know a guy from Edina.... He used to always bad mouth the Fire program. WHY? His kid played for the Fire last year.

You are clueless.......... The folks that have READ THE LAST 10 PAGES know that now

Stick with the Florida Hockey Forum

Why you gotta be like that?

He's not too smart to keep calling me out. Should change his name to MC Deflated.

[MrBoDangles]

I need to mention that I tried to leave it alone.

On the other hand he seems to like to keep bringing me into his comments.

[O-townClown]

Calling ADM a "theory" is true, but the Long-term Athlete Development principles behind them are certainly proven.

US Soccer is using the same platform. The NHL's money has a Canadian counterpart that is like ADM.

Telling kids to become good, well-rounded athletes is something that's hardly a "hey, let's try this and see if it works" stab in the dark. Selecting those with aptitude and training the heck out of them as teens isn't made up either.

It'll work. So will other approaches.

[O-townClown]

Being that you're in Florida you might not see it.

In Minnesota you will hear parents degrade other parents for playing AAA summer hockey. Why? because they don't want the kid to get ahead of theirs. You then see their own kids playing AAA the next summer.

I know a guy from Edina.... He used to always bad mouth the Fire program. WHY..........? His kid played for the Fire last year.

It's the Amazing Race on steroids up here.

You are clueless.......... The folks that have READ THE LAST 10 PAGES know that now.

Stick with the Florida Hockey Forum

You are mistaken if you think your issues are unique to the exurbs of the Twin Cities or Minnesota in general.

I did concede that you might have jealousy at the parental level. So that bothers you? Yes, it simply proves my point that you have a different world view from me.

I have enough confidence in my parenting that a naysayer can be ignored. Even two or three or several. Saying there is a systemic force dragging kids down? No, that's not in Minnesota. Not here. And not anywhere in between.

So you know one parent that trashed the Fire, then flopped and joined them. That means what? What started out as a vendetta against Minnesota establishment hockey now seems to be more of a crusade against the parents you run across.

Again comes the accusation that I'm clueless. You better alert some of the authorities because I'm dangerous.

Several on hear, including SE Coach, have made it clear that much work needs to be done for the radical changes you propose. And yes, a break from association hockey is viewed as radical. What's more likely is that a USA Hockey driven mandate towards HPCs brings about change.

On the other hand, doesn't it seem like USA Hockey will look at Minnesota and see that between public high schools, private schools, and the proximity to several Tier I Junior teams the state has things pretty well covered. It just seems like HPCs make more sense in areas like Phoenix, Southern California, Texas, the Pacific Northwest, and Ohio.

[MrBoDangles]

Being that you're in Florida you might not see it.

In Minnesota you will hear parents degrade other parents for playing AAA summer hockey. Why? because they don't want the kid to get ahead of theirs. You then see their own kids playing AAA the next summer.

I know a guy from Edina.... He used to always bad mouth the Fire program. WHY..........? His kid played for the Fire last year.

It's the Amazing Race on steroids up here.

You are clueless.......... The folks that have READ THE LAST 10 PAGES know that now.

Stick with the Florida Hockey Forum

You are mistaken if you think your issues are unique to the exurbs of the Twin Cities or Minnesota in general.

I did concede that you might have jealousy at the parental level. So that bothers you? Yes, it simply proves my point that you have a different world view from me.

I have enough confidence in my parenting that a naysayer can be ignored. Even two or three or several. Saying there is a systemic force dragging kids down? No, that's not in Minnesota. Not here. And not anywhere in between.

So you know one parent that trashed the Fire, then flopped and joined them. That means what? What started out as a vendetta against Minnesota establishment hockey now seems to be more of a crusade against the parents you run across.

Again comes the accusation that I'm clueless. You better alert some of the authorities because I'm dangerous.

Several on hear, including SE Coach, have made it clear that much work needs to be done for the radical changes you propose. And yes, a break from association hockey is viewed as radical. What's more likely is that a USA Hockey driven mandate towards HPCs brings about change.

On the other hand, doesn't it seem like USA Hockey will look at Minnesota and see that between public high schools, private schools, and the proximity to several Tier I Junior teams the state has things pretty well covered. It just seems like HPCs make more sense in areas like Phoenix, Southern California, Texas, the Pacific Northwest, and Ohio.

Like I said before...........

[MrBoDangles]

I'm sorry? The reason thousands of families are satisfied with or help their associations is apathy? Wouldn't it be nice if they all knew how much better their kids lives could be if they took the path of true caring parents and put them on the ice more? Push them harder, turn them into driven athletes, take away any chance at unstructured play where they learn to be creative, resolve problems, and learn to be self sufficient and make decisions.

ALL credible research shows that very, very, very few YOUNG players can sustain the pace they are being driven on. Does more ice time make a player better? Without a doubt. Does it make them elite? Once in a while, for the player that was built to be elite from the start.

I'll take long term development over developing elite mites and squirts any day. Ya i know, your kid is different.

You assume too much.

When I say some people at the association want more, I am talking about the people that think maybe 2-3 trips to the rink a week is an all right number not what you are portraying. Nobody is driving their kids except maybe to practice.

From the sounds of it you are in a nice association that works for you. You can't be that naive to think they are all perfect and that there might not be some perfectly reasonable folks in some not so perfect association out there who want something better for their kid.

I will also take long term development. My kid is no elite player, but he wants to skate more than 18 hours this season.

People leave my perfect association too. No matter how much ice is provided.

If your association is providing only 18 hours of ice for your son or daughter (assuming they are not 4) they could use some help. Send me a PM and I'd be glad to send you in the right direction or makes some contacts on your behalf.

Things that make you say HMMMM...........

[SECoach]

ADM is only a THEORY....I'm not saying they are wrong, just that there is no proof to indicate that the ADM model is needed or will work. Only time will tell.

This is the Bio of the man that developed the concept of LTAD, which US hockey calls ADM

Istvan Balyi is a world renowned coaching educator and his series on Long-term Athlete Development (LTAD) and periodization have been published in Australia, Canada, the United States and the United Kingdom. From 1994 to 2006, he had been the resident sport scientist of the National Coaching Institute at the University of Victoria, British Columbia Canada. He has worked with 16 Canadian National Teams as high performance advisor and planning and periodization consultant for Major Games. Istvan is a member Sport Canada’s expert advisory group of Long-term Athlete Development and presently works with 17 Canadian sports to develop LTAD models.

I guess if ADM was the end all they would be doing it in Canada..

Or ..perhaps they might use some of it as it pertains to the game of hockey in Canada.

The Coach would like to follow this plan to the letter, including HPC.

That way no one has to decide upon anything for at least 5 years ...

Some good ideas... But mostly a straw man to stand in front of questioning parents ....

Just my opinion ..

Dig a little deeper, they are doing it in Canada. Hockey Canada, Baseball Canada, Soccer Canada, and yes swimming and cricket as well.

Not that I think we should necessarily do what Canada is doing, but look no further than the models used in Russia, Slovakia, Sweden, England, etc. This guys worst crime is stealing his ideas from other organizations that have been immensely successful. The difference is that they were studied. Straw man to stand up to parents. No, that's me.

Oops, forgot gymnastics Canada.

[Quasar]

Not that I think we should necessarily do what Canada is doing, but look no further than the models used in Russia, Slovakia, Sweden, England, etc. This guys worst crime is stealing his ideas from other organizations that have been immensely successful. The difference is that they were studied. Straw man to stand up to parents. No, that's me.

Oops, forgot gymnastics Canada.

And a good straw man you are.

Just making the point that we may not need to look to Europe, because according to you and your supporters, we are doing just fine the way we are..

If Canada is doing it right, let's just adopt their model....OOps that won't work will it ??

[O-townClown]

The ADM bashing is odd. It hasn't been followed yet in many places. The recommendations are not really any different from the old USA Hockey age guidelines for certain skills. You'll remember, people didn't really follow those either.

For all the cries for more hockey, a higher level, and the elite only mingling with the elite, the good news is that the ADM is for you. Not at Squirts and below, but certainly at the teen years. I've wondered if it isn't too much hockey. At least for some kids.

Like Canadians, those watching over American hockey are worried players will be a little burnt at the ages where they really need the superior drive. I don't think it is wrong for them to be concerned.

Some of the comments against the ADM principles appear to be so out in left field that you wonder if people are even familiar with the program. There's a real educational challenge out there for USA Hockey.

[Quasar]

The ADM bashing is odd. It hasn't been followed yet in many places. The recommendations are not really any different from the old USA Hockey age guidelines for certain skills. You'll remember, people didn't really follow those either.

For all the cries for more hockey, a higher level, and the elite only mingling with the elite, the good news is that the ADM is for you. Not at Squirts and below, but certainly at the teen years. I've wondered if it isn't too much hockey. At least for some kids.

Like Canadians, those watching over American hockey are worried players will be a little burnt at the ages where they really need the superior drive. I don't think it is wrong for them to be concerned.

Some of the comments against the ADM principles appear to be so out in left field that you wonder if people are even familiar with the program. There's a real educational challenge out there for USA Hockey.

Like most wind bags you are creating a mighty breeze with out really knowing what your talking about.

As was mentioned in an earlier post...You really haven't got a clue....

You just pontificate on everything without bothering to know where people really stand on issues...

But then all one has to do is take a look at your forum name... That just about says it all !!

[longrebound]

Not that I think we should necessarily do what Canada is doing, but look no further than the models used in Russia, Slovakia, Sweden, England, etc. This guys worst crime is stealing his ideas from other organizations that have been immensely successful. The difference is that they were studied. Straw man to stand up to parents. No, that's me.

Oops, forgot gymnastics Canada.

And a good straw man you are.

Just making the point that we may not need to look to Europe, because according to you and your supporters, we are doing just fine the way we are..

If Canada is doing it right, let's just adopt their model....OOps that won't work will it ??

Which Canada model? Are you talking about Ontario's system that limits your team choices by geography, Manitoba's system of AA and below, or a different province?

[Quasar]

And a good straw man you are.

Just making the point that we may not need to look to Europe, because according to you and your supporters, we are doing just fine the way we are..

If Canada is doing it right, let's just adopt their model....OOps that won't work will it ??

Which Canada model? Are you talking about Ontario's system that limits your team choices by geography, Manitoba's system of AA and below, or a different province?

None of the above ..

I was trying to be sarcastic!!!

[longrebound]

Which Canada model? Are you talking about Ontario's system that limits your team choices by geography, Manitoba's system of AA and below, or a different province?

None of the above ..

I was trying to be sarcastic!!!

Oh sorry. Maybe you can use a special font when you are being sarcastic as opposed to condescending.

[SECoach]

Not that I think we should necessarily do what Canada is doing, but look no further than the models used in Russia, Slovakia, Sweden, England, etc. This guys worst crime is stealing his ideas from other organizations that have been immensely successful. The difference is that they were studied. Straw man to stand up to parents. No, that's me.

Oops, forgot gymnastics Canada.

And a good straw man you are.

Just making the point that we may not need to look to Europe, because according to you and your supporters, we are doing just fine the way we are..

If Canada is doing it right, let's just adopt their model....OOps that won't work will it ??

Thank you. Just don't light a fire by me.

If you mean I think we are doing just fine because we have studied, observed and put together a solid plan that has a good chance of advancing the game of hockey in our country while helping bring up physically and mentally healthy children then yes. Having a plan is a great start. In the past, it has been a hodge podge of a million different directions. It is better now and I believe it will continue to get better. Did this all happen because someone opened a private rink and league in Minnesota? I'm pretty sure not. Is it a good thing that USA Hockey developed a solid plan with a good direction while Minnesota is facing an identity crisis? I think so because we aren't the only ones.

[Quasar]

And a good straw man you are.

Just making the point that we may not need to look to Europe, because according to you and your supporters, we are doing just fine the way we are..

If Canada is doing it right, let's just adopt their model....OOps that won't work will it ??

Thank you. Just don't light a fire by me.

If you mean I think we are doing just fine because we have studied, observed and put together a solid plan that has a good chance of advancing the game of hockey in our country while helping bring up physically and mentally healthy children then yes. Having a plan is a great start. In the past, it has been a hodge podge of a million different directions. It is better now and I believe it will continue to get better. Did this all happen because someone opened a private rink and league in Minnesota? I'm pretty sure not. Is it a good thing that USA Hockey developed a solid plan with a good direction while Minnesota is facing an identity crisis? I think so because we aren't the only ones.

Not to worry ..I have no matches !!

I'm pretty sure you know by now I'm pretty much in agreement with your view of ADM and HPC..

I am not the fire bomb thrower that some think I am..

I just want to have everyone think about both sides of the argument..

If that ruffles some feathers ..they will have to go find some where else to play ..

[SECoach]

I thought this was an interesting article. Interesting that the people involved with hockey from around the world get together to share ideas about on how to make the game and the players better, while a bunch of guys from the US with kids, probably young ones, sit and call each other names on a forum. I wonder who is more informed on the subject?

http://www.usahockeymagazine.com/articl ... ckey-minds

[Quasar]

I thought this was an interesting article. Interesting that the people involved with hockey from around the world get together to share ideas about on how to make the game and the players better, while a bunch of guys from the US with kids, probably young ones, sit and call each other names on a forum. I wonder who is more informed on the subject?

http://www.usahockeymagazine.com/articl ... ckey-minds

Thank's for the link.. Decent article .. I'm sure they are more informed..
But ..Are they havin' fun ???

[SECoach]

I thought this was an interesting article. Interesting that the people involved with hockey from around the world get together to share ideas about on how to make the game and the players better, while a bunch of guys from the US with kids, probably young ones, sit and call each other names on a forum. I wonder who is more informed on the subject?

http://www.usahockeymagazine.com/articl ... ckey-minds

Thank's for the link.. Decent article .. I'm sure they are more informed..
But ..Are they havin' fun ???

It says it was "lively" discussion so I'll take that to mean they were havin fun. The name calling was probably in Swedish.

[O-townClown]

I guess if ADM was the end all they would be doing it in Canada..

Quasar, feel free to keep tossing out comments that others don't know anything. Ignorance is like alcohol.

Canada may not use the American Development Model, but that's because they're not American. The CDM mirrors the ADM from the teenage years on. They don't seem to be as concerned with lower-age youth hockey.

There are a lot of ideas in total when you look at implementing all stages of the ADM. I don't think it is possible to agree with 100% of it, but if it is going to work we need to support it as proponents of youth hockey. And that'll probably be it's downfall...not that the idea wouldn't work, just that enough key people may not support it.


+++
INTRODUCTION

When children start playing hockey at a very young age under the direction of various well-meaning organizations, they are in pursuit of an experience that is both fun and rewarding. As the child grows older and moves up in competitive levels, the game should still be fun but wading through the many aspects concerning what is best for the athlete can become more complicated. The process that follows can offer quite a challenge for players and their parents as they try to navigate their way through the many obstacles to find the answers to questions before making critical decisions. The critical decision points for parents and the player usually occur when Junior-level scouts, coaches and team administrators begin taking special interest in players as early as the Peewee (12 years old) and Bantam (13 and 14 years old) levels of hockey. Being invited to play for teams at the elite Bantam, Midget and Junior levels, may mean the athlete will move to another community, live with another family, and transfer to a different schools. In some cases, a player may be presented with the opportunity to move out of province or even to the United States.

The CDM Parent Handbook has been developed by Hockey Canada with the goal of providing young athletes and their parents with the information required to make these decisions and to insure that the choices being made are in the best interest of the athlete. This handbook serves as an introduction to what the Canadian hockey system offers young hockey players.

[Quasar]

It says it was "lively" discussion so I'll take that to mean they were havin fun. The name calling was probably in Swedish.

I can handle that ..I'm from North Minneapolis in the 50's

[Quasar]

I guess if ADM was the end all they would be doing it in Canada..

Quasar, feel free to keep tossing out comments that others don't know anything. Ignorance is like alcohol.

Canada may not use the American Development Model, but that's because they're not American. The CDM mirrors the ADM from the teenage years on. They don't seem to be as concerned with lower-age youth hockey.

There are a lot of ideas in total when you look at implementing all stages of the ADM. I don't think it is possible to agree with 100% of it, but if it is going to work we need to support it as proponents of youth hockey. And that'll probably be it's downfall...not that the idea wouldn't work, just that enough key people may not support it.


+++
INTRODUCTION

When children start playing hockey at a very young age under the direction of various well-meaning organizations, they are in pursuit of an experience that is both fun and rewarding. As the child grows older and moves up in competitive levels, the game should still be fun but wading through the many aspects concerning what is best for the athlete can become more complicated. The process that follows can offer quite a challenge for players and their parents as they try to navigate their way through the many obstacles to find the answers to questions before making critical decisions. The critical decision points for parents and the player usually occur when Junior-level scouts, coaches and team administrators begin taking special interest in players as early as the Peewee (12 years old) and Bantam (13 and 14 years old) levels of hockey. Being invited to play for teams at the elite Bantam, Midget and Junior levels, may mean the athlete will move to another community, live with another family, and transfer to a different schools. In some cases, a player may be presented with the opportunity to move out of province or even to the United States.

The CDM Parent Handbook has been developed by Hockey Canada with the goal of providing young athletes and their parents with the information required to make these decisions and to insure that the choices being made are in the best interest of the athlete. This handbook serves as an introduction to what the Canadian hockey system offers young hockey players.

Man ..you gotta lighten up a little..

Do you ever smile?? ..