POOL PLAY OR BRACKET DOUBLE ELIMINATION

FREDFLINTSTONE · Post by **FREDFLINTSTONE** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:52 am

How should the Regional PeeWee and Bantam tournaments be set up?

FREDFLINTSTONE · Post by **FREDFLINTSTONE** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:45 am

breakout · Post by **breakout** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:54 am

Double elimination is much more exciting. Teams with lesser talent have a chance to advance. Better teams that stumble in the first game can circle back and advance.

omg4 · Post by **omg4** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:08 pm

How about we add touching up at the Bantam and PW level to the poll. It amazing how much faster the game is and guess what.... they can figure it out!!!!!!!!!!!

D16Dad · Post by **D16Dad** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:46 pm

omg4 wrote:How about we add touching up at the Bantam and PW level to the poll. It amazing how much faster the game is and guess what.... they can figure it out!!!!!!!!!!!

Start a new thread

GR3343 · Post by **GR3343** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:00 pm

FREDFLINTSTONE wrote:How should the Regional PeeWee and Bantam tournaments be set up?

After seeing what happened in the North Bantam Region in Virginia last March, I'm a bigger believer in double elim. Both teams that went 3-0 in the round robin portion of the tournament (Rapids & Moorehead) were booted from the tournament vs 1 loss teams. Double elim. gives you a more accurate survivor of a tournament at the youth level.

breakout · Post by **breakout** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:48 pm

omg4 wrote:How about we add touching up at the Bantam and PW level to the poll. It amazing how much faster the game is and guess what.... they can figure it out!!!!!!!!!!!

It happens in High School and beyond...........get r done!

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:37 pm

breakout wrote:
omg4 wrote:How about we add touching up at the Bantam and PW level to the poll. It amazing how much faster the game is and guess what.... they can figure it out!!!!!!!!!!!

It happens in High School and beyond...........get r done!

This rule is a USA Hockey rule.
They voted this summer and voted a change to tag-up down.
MNHockey does not have the power to over-rule this.
It will come up agian in 2009.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:45 pm

GR3343 wrote:
FREDFLINTSTONE wrote:How should the Regional PeeWee and Bantam tournaments be set up?
After seeing what happened in the North Bantam Region in Virginia last March, I'm a bigger believer in double elim. Both teams that went 3-0 in the round robin portion of the tournament (Rapids & Moorehead) were booted from the tournament vs 1 loss teams. Double elim. gives you a more accurate survivor of a tournament at the youth level.

I am not opposed to double elim.
But what happened in the North Bantam region does not provide argument for or agianst d-elim.
Grand Rapids and Moorhead went 3-0 and then lost the games that mattered. Similar things happen in double elim.

One porblem with 8 team true double elim is that it cannot (it is difficult)be completed in the time fram in which we currently operate.
In the metro area with metro teams it is easier with 'local' teams participating.
But outside of the metro, where teams are traveling it means at the minimum starting early on Friday, so Thursday becomes a travel day for just about all (I apologize as I do not have the brackets in front of me - going from memory). And completion can go to Monday or maybe even Tuesday. So a 3 day event could possible go to 4 or 5 (again apologize).

Perhaps if the new rule passes with less wait time between games it becomes more viable.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:47 pm

And FYI for D16 district play-offs with 8 or less teams we use double elimination or a modified double elimination.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:50 pm

Another negative to d-elim is a lot of travel for 2 teams and perhaps (most likely) 2 motel nights for playing 2 games on friday and being done.

Again I am not arguing one way or another just giving the pros/cons that I have heard over a multitude of years in this business.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:01 pm

Under current format 2 teams come from each region so a true double-elim is not needed.

Using a straight single elim for the champion can be done and then a double elim for the second spot to state can be done with a Friday 10am start and final game at 4 or so on Sunday (trying to compute it in my head).

That would work.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:05 pm

One othe con to the double elim in regions as that you cannot seed accurately (currently with pool placement is base on pre-designed format with places established by district results).

The problem if #1 & #2 are paired and #3 & #4 paired.
Worst case scenario is 2 upsets in the first round and #1 goes against #2 in the second round. Pool play has a similar problem (but not as disasterous) as it does allow #1 & #2 if in the same pool to come out of the pool.

LesHabs · Post by **LesHabs** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:52 pm

with all due respect Elliott, I totally disagree. The inequites of seeding are exasperated with Pool play. The top 3 teams in District 6 are many times better than the number 1 seed from Districts 4,5, and 8. As a result, the Red and Blue pools in that Region are so out of balance it is ridiculous, and because of the nature of the point system, there is no way out. With double elimination, there is always a way out, it's just WIN baby. With double elimination, there are no execuses. Your ability to advance or go home is totally within your control, with pool play, to some extent you have no control. Teams should advance by winning, not because they were lucky enough to get stuck in the right pool.

FREDFLINTSTONE · Post by **FREDFLINTSTONE** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:25 am

I have to add that the regionals purpose is to get the best teams to state and not to please parents. This is regions. Pool play does not accompish that. I also heard that pool play is used so that all teams get to play 3 games. Well if a team looses its first 2 games, why should they even be allowed to play a meaningless third game. They should be done.

There is really no time constraint as you stated. Three days is all that would be needed. One game a day if you win, and 2 a day if you loose. The tournament would be done by Sunday. Boy, the sound of this 2 elim bracket tournament is making me sad that regions are going to be that slop pool play tournament which is great for holiday tournaments. Got that......Holiday tournaments!

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:30 am

LesHabs wrote:with all due respect Elliott, I totally disagree. The inequites of seeding are exasperated with Pool play.

I do not disagree.

But pool play does puts less emphasis on seeding than does double elim.
And in pool play (as in any structure) winning will put you into the state tournament. Therefore, single elimination is the favorite of many, some.

There are pros and cons in all.

And D6 will not get 3 to state in the current format. Should they get three? That discussion is for another thread.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:36 am

FREDFLINTSTONE wrote:I have to add that the regionals purpose is to get the best teams to state and not to please parents. This is regions. Pool play does not accompish that. I also heard that pool play is used so that all teams get to play 3 games. Well if a team looses its first 2 games, why should they even be allowed to play a meaningless third game. They should be done.

There is really no time constraint as you stated. Three days is all that would be needed. One game a day if you win, and 2 a day if you loose. The tournament would be done by Sunday.

A true double elim to the championship requires 4 days if the loser bracket team comes back and wins on Sunday.
I checked my brackets.

As for the first argument, where in last year's regions did the worng
team(s) get to state.
Is not the purpose of regions to get teams to state that qualified for regions.

FREDFLINTSTONE · Post by **FREDFLINTSTONE** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:48 am

What I see with pool play is 2 huge flaws.

#1 The tie breaker. The tie breaker has to be done on the ice....period.
No rule book. Because one team scored one more goal than another, and that team gets to go to the "championship" round that is flat out wrong.

#2 The two best teams can be 3-0, loose the next game and be done, even though they will have the identical record as the one team that moves on. Once again, the purpose of the regional is to get the best 2 teams to state.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:52 am

FREDFLINTSTONE wrote:What I see with pool play is 2 huge flaws.

#1 The tie breaker. The tie breaker has to be done on the ice....period.
No rule book. Because one team scored one more goal than another, and that team gets to go to the "championship" round that is flat out wrong.

#2 The two best teams can be 3-0, loose the next game and be done, even though they will have the identical record as the one team that moves on. Once again, the purpose of the regional is to get the best 2 teams to state.

I agree and that is the argument I use in discussions.
I really like straight single elim to determine the champion.
I like the idea of a champion.
And a double elim to determine the second seed to state.

It will not change this year.
But we (I) can keep it in front of the district directors.

whockeyguy · Post by **whockeyguy** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:02 pm

Try this one it works for the best high school tournament in the country, YOU LOOSE >>>>> YOU GO HOME no more going through the back door or seeing if the point spread is more, pretty simple formula , but its to simple approach for Mn Hockey ..remember that they still would like to get the fair play point in these playoffssome how

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