AVG v. OBP

[HShockeywatcher]

Baseball coaches stress the importance of being able to draw a walk and yet the OBP seems to be something no one cares about. Gets you just as far as a single, why not talked about as much?

[east hockey]

Baseball coaches stress the importance of being able to draw a walk and yet the OBP seems to be something no one cares about. Gets you just as far as a single, why not talked about as much?

Two things here:

1) History. People have always been more impressed by batting averages than on-base percentages. They relate to it more closely. Growing up, I don't even remember OBP being mentioned. Of course, Bill James wasn't around back then. Ask nearly anybody with any baseball knowledge who has the highest lifetime batting average. They know it's Cobb at .366. Then ask them who has the highest lifetime OBP. A much smaller percentage will know that, and even less will know what that average is.

2) Well, the obvious thing missed here is that a single can score somebody from second. Will a walk do that? So you can't equate a walk with a single. It just isn't the same.

Lee

[HShockeywatcher]

All of what you say may be true, but when it comes to actually playing the game, which is more valuable?

[east hockey]

All of what you say may be true, but when it comes to actually playing the game, which is more valuable?

The Basic Runs Created formula created by Bill James says BA > OBP. It pretty much ties into the second point I made.

Lee

[NumberCruncher]

Yeah I mean take two players with the same batting average say .300. Player A has 10 walks on the year and Player B has 60 walks on the year. It wouldn't hurt to have those extra walks eh?

This is a quote from Moneyball (aka The Bible):

"Anything that increases the offense’s chances of making an out is bad; anything that decreases it is good. And what is on-base percentage? Simply yet exactly put, it is the probability that the batter will not make an out. When we state it that way, it becomes, or should become, crystal clear that the most important isolated [one-dimensional] offensive statistic is the on-base percentage. It measures the probability that the batter will not be another step toward the end of the inning. "

[elliott70]

At the youth level we measure on base pct as a very significant stat.
But average is more important (generally) because it measures putting the bat on the ball.

This past season we had a kid with an obp of near 500. Another just over 400. But the first kid had a Kpct of near 500. Kid #2 is aggressive at the plate and more apt to 'put the ball in play'.

Hitting a baseball takes more skill than watching it and determining if a pitch is a strike or not (a good skill, though).

[NumberCruncher]

All of what you say may be true, but when it comes to actually playing the game, which is more valuable?

The Basic Runs Created formula created by Bill James says BA > OBP. It pretty much ties into the second point I made.

Lee

The basic formula for Runs Created: OBP*SLG*AB

It would also seem that SLG is better than AVG because you can have the same AVG with a singles hitter and a power hitter and you'd definitely want the power hitter

[HShockeywatcher]

I like your whole post, but to make it even clearer I'd take a guy with a .300 and 10 walks and a guy with a .280 and 60 or 70 walks. Obviously with the same BA the guy who walks more would be better.

Sure, hitting the ball looks cooler, but as NumberCruncher put it, wouldn't you prefer the guy who won't get your guys out?

As for what elliott said, that is true, if you have a guy who either strikes out or walks, probably not going to want him as much. I'm not a baseball coach, but what does it say about attitude. I've seen quite a few full counts where the batter swings and misses a ball that was at shoulder level. Doesn't it say a lot about the batter, his eyesight, humbleness, etc, etc to just take the walk?

[NumberCruncher]

From Wikipedia:

"Sabermetrics, the study of baseball statistics, considers batting average a weak measure of performance because it does not correlate as well as other measures to runs scored, and because it has little predictive value. Batting average does not take into account walks or power, whereas other statistics such as on-base percentage and slugging percentage have been specifically designed to measure such concepts."

[HShockeywatcher]

Another great point. I wouldn't say to replace them, but when they show the avg of a player when they get up to bat it would be nice to see the other two stats. There's definitely something to be said for a guy with a .350 avg with 90% of the hits being singles, but someone who gets on base 45% of the time is very valuable too, or someone with a .250 avg but when they do it's usually a double or more, etc, etc.

[Stealth]

Same could be for PRO Hockey in the Plus/Minus, Some player scores 17 goal and 10 helpers and wants a BIG buck raise. Heck, he is a minus 12.