Tryouts: Outside evaluators ??

[Educator29]

I am wondering your opinion on associations using outside evaluators? To me it only makes sense.... Do most associations use them or do they use there own in-house coaches and board members ??

[Bronc]

I am wondering your opinion on associations using outside evaluators? To me it only makes sense.... Do most associations use them or do they use there own in-house coaches and board members ??

You find it all over the board from nothing but the outsiders, to coaches (of the team) to a mix, etc.

If you have the A coaches identified (which most assoc do) they should have a huge impact on who makes their team since it is them we hold accountable for results. It starts with hiring the right coach that meets the values of the assoc. If you do that the team will be put together properly.

With that said it will not eliminate parent issues thinking their player go the shaft. Regardless of who evaluates typically there are 3 - 5 bubble players. That is where I think it is really important the coaches have the final picks since they know the needs of their teams and the chemistry of it.

Take the time to get the right coaches hired and their competiveness will drive the team mix.

[Educator29]

I agree with your comment about the "Right" Coaches. I also think the you clear alot of Biases up if you have an "Outside" group evaluate the players and give the coach a pool of lets say 18 - 22 kids and then the coach has to choose from that mix.

Although I have seen some associations grab young college kids to be outside evaluators. I am sorry these kids do not know yet what Youth hockey is all about, what the competetion is etc. Find the "Right" group of evaluators is ideal...

[HOFam'r]

I agree with your comment about the "Right" Coaches. I also think the you clear alot of Biases up if you have an "Outside" group evaluate the players and give the coach a pool of lets say 18 - 22 kids and then the coach has to choose from that mix.

Although I have seen some associations grab young college kids to be outside evaluators. I am sorry these kids do not know yet what Youth hockey is all about, what the competetion is etc. Find the "Right" group of evaluators is ideal...

Couple years ago I suggested our ASSN and another Assn coordinate their tryouts together and have our Assn evaluate their kids and their Assn evaluate ours. The other ASSN agreed but the folks at our ASSN were not so agreeable. I looked at it as an economical way for ASSNS to get fair avaluations, reduce parental suspecions of cheating and provide the ASSN some peace. I had been told by long time coaches that were 'told' who pick from the bubble. The main argument against was the fact that the other Association did not know the kids or their attitudes. It didn't happen and was shot down quickly by the guys who ran the ASSN. I guess I leaned for awhile that it was a bad idea quickly and honestly didn't feel slighted just felt like things with this crew would not change...which can be both good or bad.

I always thought their argument held a bit of water but not as much as the argument from disgruntled members that these same people were rigging the tryout process. I don't know the right solution but at the end of the day it doesn't matter if a kid works themselves off the bubble...the bubble is always tinkered with. I think most ASSN's will find that these same people not only control team members but also control line mates, special teams play, and playing time. It's unfair but what in life isn't?

[Tony Soprano]

No disrespect, good luck with finding the "right coaches" that is always a challenge from what you read on this forum. It can be as difficult as finding the "golden ticket".

I have seen many different methods used over the years. Depending upon what your associations goals are when forming teams are, you need to determine those goals and then arrive at your format. Using outside evaluators is a very good idea and will work. I have heard of associations paying $3000 to $4000 out for outside evaluation help. Then when they leave, the complaining can still start of course. Just be careful who you hire to do this.

The method of arriving with pools such as the A,B,C pool is common. By the time you get down to the A pool of up to 22 players, the outside evaluators could pick up to 12 from that A pool then the A level coach has the final 5 picks if you are going with 17 total. Just adjust accordingly. There are many different methods, I have seen some associations have the outside evaluators pick all teams as well.

As far as selecting the outside evaluators, lean on some of the high school staff, and then it may be up to who knows who. In any event finding evaluators that are familiar with youth hockey would be the way to go in the end. Just grabbing anyone can and will cause problems. Then it comes down to running an organized evaluation. Parents need to see evaluators that have clip boards and that at least look like they are interested in being their paying attention to what is going on.

There needs to be communication between your outside evaluators and the internal evaluation committee or body in charge of conducting the evaluation. It is a very large task and takes a lot of work. In the end when the dust settles, we all know there will be some fallout, just be ready with answers when it happens. Good luck.

[conditioningsucks]

Outside Evaluators are a waste of time for the most part.

Think about it. You have a kid trying out for bantams or peewees that has a five year track record. Nice hands, solid scorer, good defenseman, good head for the game, a positive teammate, etc. Outside evaluators come in and over a course of one to two weeks try to evaluate this??? This is where some duds get put on an A team while some solid players get missed. What happens to the kid that has terrible skating skills but can score from virtually anywhere? Cut, yet that kid would outperform half of the team that gets selected.

Here is what it really comes down to: your top 10-12 kids are very easy to pick in most associations, then comes the bubble that may have a total six to ten kids. Your tryouts are all about these six to ten kids (once the As are selected, you then have to repeat this bubble analysis at the B1 level). What does the team need? Defensemen? Forwards? Does a kid have skills to crossover from D to Forward or vice versa? What is the historical track record of the player (skills, attitudes, etc.). Construct your team utilizing these subjective opinions, and yes, some parents are going to be mad.

Never, ever, select your teams based off of numerical statistics developed by outside evaluators. This is the 'politically correct' thing to do as you can point to numbers as the rationale for why a kid got selected where they did, but it does not construct the best possible team to hit the ice.

Set up safeguards if necessary to prevent country club buddies from picking their kids for that bubble spot, but make sure there is solid subjective rationale for the selection of the bubble kids.

Perhaps have prior year coaches rate their players for skills, attitudes, team player or not, etc....in order to establish a 'file' on these subjective items so that when a parent complains, you have something 'numerical' to justify the selection.

Just my two cents....keep outside evaluators out or only have their scores count for 50% or less of the tryout --- and these scores should only be on skill testing - leave it to the coach or hockey development folks within your association to determine who the players are on that bubble that will have a better likelihood of having success and helping the team.

[Daulton911]

Outside evaluators are the way to go to pick a pool of players to assist the coach. There is a group out there that is long time youth coaches that will assist with your evaluating - I have not seen any pricing as of yet - but the flyer looked good. I don't remember the name, if i find it I will pass it on.
youth sports are being hurt by parents and their own personal agenda's. Lets get them out of the picture is there is a replicable way of doing it.

[HOFam'r]

I think the main problem and something that will always loom is:

Set up safeguards if necessary to prevent country club buddies from picking their kids for that bubble spot, but make sure there is solid subjective rationale for the selection of the bubble kids.

I didn't see any safegards in your note? I think the criteria you explained is exactly what people hear in most cases when teams are chosen and are 'easy outs' for those who select the teams.

I think there has to be ALOT more effort and thought that goes into tryouts and that evaluators definately cannot be involved with a child in the Association...this only creates ill will regardless of the intentions of the individual. Like I said before and truly believe after years of involvement in Youth Sports:

1.) Hire an accountant
2.) Set a fair and unbiased tryout process

By doing this both of these you will weed out those who are involved with a personal agenda. ...period. You will get more people involved that are interested in providing the kids a good experieince and will make your rink a much friendlier place to visit. Not only do I think there is a considerable fairness value in outside evaluators, I think there is also a tremendous value in bringing good people together and eliminating those who need to control for their personal gain. I don't think the tryout process needs to cost a fortune to be effective.

[Bronc]

I think the main problem and something that will always loom is:

Set up safeguards if necessary to prevent country club buddies from picking their kids for that bubble spot, but make sure there is solid subjective rationale for the selection of the bubble kids.

I didn't see any safegards in your note? I think the criteria you explained is exactly what people hear in most cases when teams are chosen and are 'easy outs' for those who select the teams.

I think there has to be ALOT more effort and thought that goes into tryouts and that evaluators definately cannot be involved with a child in the Association...this only creates ill will regardless of the intentions of the individual. Like I said before and truly believe after years of involvement in Youth Sports:

1.) Hire an accountant
2.) Set a fair and unbiased tryout process

By doing this both of these you will weed out those who are involved with a personal agenda. ...period. You will get more people involved that are interested in providing the kids a good experieince and will make your rink a much friendlier place to visit. Not only do I think there is a considerable fairness value in outside evaluators, I think there is also a tremendous value in bringing good people together and eliminating those who need to control for their personal gain. I don't think the tryout process needs to cost a fortune to be effective.

- Completely agree with Hire an accountant any and all assoc should have one that specializes in non-profits, period. Very inexpensive (more expensive if you don't) and makes to much sense.

- Fair and unbiased does not exist and completely disagree. When you are putting together a team you are trying to put the very best team on the ice as possible. The only way to do that is with a tryout process, but with people who know the players. Otherwise when you get to the final picks (the top 10 are normally no argument over) a complete outsider or unbiased (even outsiders have bias's ie; like big strong, small fast, skill vs aggressive, etc):

- Do they show up for practices?
- What position is best for them and what are the needs based on who made it (FWD vs D, size vs skill, etc)?
- How do they interact with teammates and locker room gel, etc.

The above mentioned are not all, but critical in having a successful team(s).

Unfortunately you will never have a process that pleases everyone, but you hope you board has integrity and the majority of the people believe it and support it (but there will always be a few frustrated).

[Ibleedhockey]

I think the main problem and something that will always loom is:

Set up safeguards if necessary to prevent country club buddies from picking their kids for that bubble spot, but make sure there is solid subjective rationale for the selection of the bubble kids.

I didn't see any safegards in your note? I think the criteria you explained is exactly what people hear in most cases when teams are chosen and are 'easy outs' for those who select the teams.

I think there has to be ALOT more effort and thought that goes into tryouts and that evaluators definately cannot be involved with a child in the Association...this only creates ill will regardless of the intentions of the individual. Like I said before and truly believe after years of involvement in Youth Sports:

1.) Hire an accountant
2.) Set a fair and unbiased tryout process

By doing this both of these you will weed out those who are involved with a personal agenda. ...period. You will get more people involved that are interested in providing the kids a good experieince and will make your rink a much friendlier place to visit. Not only do I think there is a considerable fairness value in outside evaluators, I think there is also a tremendous value in bringing good people together and eliminating those who need to control for their personal gain. I don't think the tryout process needs to cost a fortune to be effective.

- Completely agree with Hire an accountant any and all assoc should have one that specializes in non-profits, period. Very inexpensive (more expensive if you don't) and makes to much sense.

- Fair and unbiased does not exist and completely disagree. When you are putting together a team you are trying to put the very best team on the ice as possible. The only way to do that is with a tryout process, but with people who know the players. Otherwise when you get to the final picks (the top 10 are normally no argument over) a complete outsider or unbiased (even outsiders have bias's ie; like big strong, small fast, skill vs aggressive, etc):

- Do they show up for practices?
- What position is best for them and what are the needs based on who made it (FWD vs D, size vs skill, etc)?
- How do they interact with teammates and locker room gel, etc.

The above mentioned are not all, but critical in having a successful team(s).

Unfortunately you will never have a process that pleases everyone, but you hope you board has integrity and the majority of the people believe it and support it (but there will always be a few frustrated).

Sorry, I do not agree. These are CHILDREN and they grow, mature - sometimes for the better, sometimes not. How many kids to you know were good kids, then their behavior changed - smoking, drinking, behaviors.... and how many kids have a rough year - family issues, being picked on .. whatever... and they change and grow out of it. I don't see how if a kid shows up at practice matters - you let them know that it does and what the consequences are if they don't - to the entire team. And if they "gel" with the team - the team has now changed and all of the kids have grown in different ways. If you rethink what you wrote, I"m sure you can see the difference. Your kid was a dink 2 years ago, but now he's buddies with someone you would have never suspected! (this is an illustrated example - I don't know your kid).

[Daulton911]

I saw a flyer on this group that does evaluating - all long time coaches. e-mail address is listed at info@clearvisionsports.org

[tomASS]

Once you get the magic formula down for how to run tryouts (and there is no perfect system ever) do one more thing to help with the process.

eliminate the parents from the rink. They can drop off, assist with equipment, but once the kid is on the ice, provide your contact number in case of an injury and leave. There is nothing more you can do to control what happens.

[Tony Soprano]

Nice idea to get the parents out of the building. I know of an association that only allowed the parents to be in the lobby area during evaluations. They also blocked off all windows looking out onto the rink area with brown paper. The only people allowed in the rink area were the players, coaches, and evaluators.

My old bantam coach of many years ago asked the parents to follow him out into the lobby area, and then outside to the parking lot area. He then told them to wait there for a minute as he had forgotten something back inside. Once he was back inside, he locked the doors with some chain and a nice lock. Needless to say, the parents got a little ticked off, but they got over it.

[Daulton911]

careful with keeping parents out. I never understood that one? are you trying to hide something? If you feel parents put to much pressure on there kid won't the "real" season have parents there? might as well see the true relationship from the start. just my opinion. but to many hidden agenda's when you close the doors.

[JoltDelivered]

It is my assumption that people who want outside evaluators want them for the purpose of being fair and to make sure the "best" kids or the "right" kids get picked. Talk about an imperfect science! With outside evaluators you may be able to remove biases towards certain kids, or crazy dads or not so hot moms but judging talent is an extremely complex activity to go through. Let me see if I can demonstrate:

Go through your mind of all the youth hockey games you have watched over the years. Ever had a parent come up to you after a game and say something about a player (not your son), Something like: "Good game huh? I thought Charlie palyed a heck of game." And you think to your self, "Charlie? Yeah he got a goal there at the end but he loafed around on half of his shifts! What's this clown talking about?" But instead you half heartily agree and move away from the conversation. The you overhear two other parents talking about Willie and what a great game he played. And you think to yourself "Willie? Well he was OK tonight, I wouldn't call it a GREAT game. He took 2 cheap penalties."

I hear it ALL the time after games and I always wonder, do these people uderstand what a valuable player is? I'm telling you, people see different things when they watch games and for that matter tryouts. What I find valuable, others may not including outside evaluators. It's just perception really and you can't regulate perception.

I'm telling you, you want fair and balanced tryouts? Try this one on for size. I think hockey tryouts should be closed to parents! There is absolutly no reason parents should be allowed into tryouts. The only reason for parents wanting to go is they want to see how their kid performs and how he stacks up agaianst the other kids. It's like an itch they need scratched. While that may satisfy their personal need of "wanting to know" how Johnny did, it brings absolutly no value to the tryout process overall. Coaches should be left alone on the ice with the kids with no critics standing 20 feet away behind glass. Parents only complicate the situation and add tension to an already very stressful process for the kids.

Don't beleive me? Ever watch your kid during tryouts and then work him over in the car on the way home? You need to huslte more, you need to be more aggressive, more physical in the corners. You need to... That's probably where parents add the least amount of value to the entire process.

Lets start with locking the parents out and let the coaches be coaches...

[Can't Never Tried]

IDK it's a sticky one.
But I think you should be able to watch the tryouts, WTH your paying for it, and I like watching em.

If you think that it will make it better to have things closed and private, well your wrong, being open and transparent with the process as to what's going on will yield less mistrust and suspicion then closing things up and just expecting the customer to trust they've been treated fairly.

As far as outside evaluators mehhh?? everyone knows someone somehow in this hockey world, but I do think it's good not to have parents or friends of their's if they have a player involved evaluating.

Bottom line is someone got screwed, and it already happened and the tryouts are months out yet. you'll never please em all, so why worry about it, do the best you can.
Some people will be b****in even after they make the team...it's the people that are the problem most of the time not the process.

[JoltDelivered]

Some people will be b****in even after they make the team...it's the people that are the problem most of the time not the process.

I agree 100%. Remove the people, remove the problem.

As far as transparency being some sort of cure all, I have not yet run into a coach that wants to lose. Coaches are going to pick the 15 kids he thinks will give his team the best chance to win and compete. Having a critic in the stands adds no value to the process. And incidentally, you have 4-5 months to watch games to get what you paid for.

[Hockeydaddy]

I have taken both sides of this argument and probably land on letting the coaches take who they want.

The coach has to put up with the players/parents all season - in many/most cases they volunteer. Let 'em have whoever they want. They're all going to take the best 8-9 or so, generally everyone agrees on who those players are, if you took a poll of everyone who even casually watches them, those kids are obvious. Likewise, the bottom 50% are generally obvious.

The sticky part is the group that sits just under the top 8-9. And it's in that next group where the coach deserves some leeway. There has to be some X factor that leads a coach to take a kid - maybe she's friends with all the top kids and just taking her makes them all play better, that's okay. If she skates like a sled but manages to score well and play effective defense, that's worth something, too. Maybe the kid just busts butt in practice an sets a great example for the other girls. Maybe the coach just doesn't want your kid because you're a pain in the ass hockey parent who he doesn't feel like babysitting all year long. That should count for something, too.

There's no way outside evaluators who watch 3 games of kids sometimes playing out of position, (or with new kids, or coming off the bench with nobody coaching them between shifts} can evaluate properly and definitively say one player is better than another. Most good coaches are pretty cognizant of who the kids are in their incoming age group. I think letting the coaches pick their kids is, in the long run, only fair.

No system is perfect, and there will always be a player (and a few parents) who think that they weren't treated fairly. When there are 10 equal kids fighting over 6 spots, someone's going to be disappointed.

As far as letting parents watch, I say fine. It would be great if after being cut they gave the kids a list of things they might want to work on to make future A teams, but I know that's a LOT of work, particularly in big associations. The scary thing is when you're a parent attending a tryout, and you sit across from the coach and you watch the coach and he's not paying rapt attention.

[tomASS]

CNT - we'll have to agree to disagree on the parents being able to watch.

I see most of the parents caring very little about the process and only about their kid. When the kid's placement disappoints the parents, only then is the process a concern to them.

I have never watched a single tryout process in any sport at any level when one of my kids has been involved.

I have been an evaluator and only end up shaking my head from what I hear often times coming from the stands or when kids are constantly looking up to "pops"for approval

I also think most evaluations, for most sports in terms of the length of the process; are shaped to appease the parents to make them seem more fair.

[DMom]

CNT - we'll have to agree to disagree on the parents being able to watch.

I see most of the parents caring very little about the process and only about their kid. When the kid's placement disappoints the parents, only then is the process a concern to them.

I have never watched a single tryout process in any sport at any level when one of my kids has been involved.

I have been an evaluator and only end up shaking my head from what I hear often times coming from the stands or when kids are constantly looking up to "pops"for approval

I also think most evaluations, for most sports in terms of the length of the process; are shaped to appease the parents to make them seem more fair.

As a parent, I agree with Thomas. I have watched one day of tryouts the first year my oldest tried out for Squirts, I'll never watch again. No need. I am the parent that will, out of concern for my kids, say things on the way home. My husband won't, so he goes to the arena. Honestly he has the ability to watch our kids skate and than not say one word about it on the way home. He'll stand in the corner at tryouts and BS with his buddies or be in charge of checking in the next group or whatever but it is just better if he is the one in the arena and not me. I think every hockey parent could look at themselves and ask if it is in the best interest of their children to be there. Last year I did spent one of the days in the concession stand, but I couldn't see the rink from there so it was okay.

My other pet peeve are the people who spend the next few months after tryouts throwing numbers out. "So and Sos kid, I heard he place 11th and they still didn't pick him" and they say it just hoping that someone in the know will correct them. "Oh, no he was 16 (or whatever)"
They continue this way until they think they have a fairly accurate list of the kids. Who cares, it is what it is. A week after practices begin my kid's have friends on their teams and they are playing a game they love, and that's what matters. Course two of mine have worked their butts off this summer because they don't want to be disappointed this fall, it's their choice.

[Can't Never Tried]

CNT - we'll have to agree to disagree on the parents being able to watch.

I see most of the parents caring very little about the process and only about their kid. When the kid's placement disappoints the parents, only then is the process a concern to them.

I have never watched a single tryout process in any sport at any level when one of my kids has been involved.

I have been an evaluator and only end up shaking my head from what I hear often times coming from the stands or when kids are constantly looking up to "pops"for approval

I also think most evaluations, for most sports in terms of the length of the process; are shaped to appease the parents to make them seem more fair.

Although some of your points I agree with, why then if it's the right thing to do, they do not have closed tryouts for(most) HS and Jr's camps tryouts? surely these experienced coaches and the evaluaters they choose to come in, must know that there will be interference from parents right?
Fact is those coaches actually want to talk to the parents if they have questions, and they make themselves available for them, is it that the parents have now grown up?
That is what I meant by it's the people not the process.
People will talk about the outcome either way, and most see the reality after they get over the fact that little jimmy although a star in their eyes may not be in others...it just takes more time for protective parents to accept the fact that he's not as good as they think.
Shutting the door on people is never a good thing IMO, and breeds mistrust, and that's all it is is my opinion.

[tomASS]

Fact is those coaches actually want to talk to the parents if they have questions, and they make themselves available for them, is it that the parents have now grown up?

I think that it is better to have discussions or meetings prior to the tryouts to be proactive in explaining the process. It is also not bad to have a post tryout meeting to discuss concerns. So we do agree on the fact discussions are necessary just during different time frames

People will talk about the outcome either way, and most see the reality after they get over the fact that little jimmy although a star in their eyes may not be in others...it just takes more time for protective parents to accept the fact that he's not as good as they think.

This I agree with

Shutting the door on people is never a good thing IMO, and breeds mistrust, and that's all it is is my opinion.

The reality is it probably does breed mistrust. I only wish someone could tell me if they really feel if being there makes a difference.

I can tell you for HS soccer tryouts (sorry!) we do not permit parents anywhere near the field until the last 15 minutes of each session. It doesn't breed mistrust as much as it breeds some players telling their parents whatever they want to hear.

[spin-o-rama]

Closed tryouts won't make it any easier on the kids. Think of the ride home with the over-the-top parent pumping the kid for info. And the kid isn't going to set themselves up for an extended lecture (or worse) by saying they didn't perform well, so the blame will then go to the evaluators/coaches and more mistrust will happen.

I have a problem with parents not having access to view their minor children's activities. I can drop in on my kids' school classes anytime. Even though I never do it, if the school came out with a policy that said I couldn't then I would have a major problem with "what they were hiding."

IMO, last year's classic tryout blowup at Braemar would still have happened if the tryouts were closed.

Tom - I agree that good pre and post tryout discussion is very valuable. Some parents will still be a pain. It's the nature of life. So they don't feel trapped, keep some choice league brochures handy for them.

[DMom]

we used outside evaluators last year and had not one complaint at the board meeting following tryouts. quietest it's ever been. There were a few surprises but, because parents were watching the tryouts they could see that, those kids earned their spots.

I think tryouts need to be open. I just wish parents would know when they are causing more harm than good.

[Jimbo99]

I still like a combination of outside and local evaluators - some sort of hybrid weighting system. The outside guys can add credibility to the process.

And I know it's a minority stance, but I would keep parents out of tryouts. The majority of us really don't know what we're looking at. Maybe over a season we can get a good idea but not in just a few days and not from a perspective of evaluating & comparing skills and building a team. All we see is our own kid anyway.

Find a system you can trust and then take the parental distraction out of the equation.