What do you think about St. Thomas?

[HockeyGuru#6]

What do you think about St. Thomas getting to field a team in District 6? Possibly a b1 team and a b2 team. Sounds like it is almost a done deal. Tournament can then be Blakes B1 (A) team against St Thomas B1 (A) team. I wouldn't have problem with it if they had to field an A team first.

[observer]

A few things,

It's unlikely they'll get 15 kids with waivers to play with the St. Thomas Bantam B team.

But let's review the steps,

Player registers and pays with their community based youth hockey association. Required to get a USA Hockey registration form.

Player attends tryouts with their community based association.

Teams are formed and player learns he doesn't make A team (that's generally the goal isn't it?)

Player requests waiver from home association.

Waiver likely denied as home association hosts a B team.

Are you suggesting that St. Thomas kids will play for the Prior Lake Bantam A team, with waivers? And, Prior Lake kids will skate on a Bantam B team wearing blue and white?

MN Hockey allowed St. Thomas to form a Bantam B team, with their students, if they're able, which I don't think they will be.

Prior Lake, and District 6, approved a one year experiment. One quick way to screw it up is avoid or break rules starting with the first, register and pay with the home association, step.

Frankly, Prior Lake has made an interesting choice to assist St. Thomas as opposed to being supportive of the community based hockey association model of which they're part of. Being a community based hockey association are they doing everything they can to support partner community based youth hockey associations? Weird choice.

Question, should Prior Lake be penalized by community based youth hockey associations they chose not to support? Maybe the Prior Lake teams should be denied entry into tournaments sponsored by community based hockey organizations. Should all the other associations in the state be supportive of an association that doesn't follow the rules everyone else does? Will associations allow St. Thomas entry into their tournaments that support community based youth hockey?

Everyone in the state plays by the same rules. Play with your community based youth hockey association through your Bantam years. Then everyone moves to school hockey. Should one single group of 4 dads be allowed to make their own rules?

Prior Lake and District 6 made a mistake on this one.

[HockeyGuru#6]

Sorry, didn't know there was another thread.

[frederick61]

Observer,
I like your explanation of the rules revolving around St. Thomas forming a bantam team, but doesn't the high school rules governing public and private schools state that all transfers to private school or other public schools (not supported by the association) be applied for by Jan 15th of the year prior to the kid entering the ninth grade.

I know he can apply in any year prior to Jan 15th thereafter, but penalities are such that the hockey player really has little opportunity if he misses the ninth grade window. Because of this rule, if a kid is planning to attend a private school or other public school in the ninth grade, the rules leveled on the St. Thomas team double punish the players involved by denying them participation at the same level that the association hockey bantams have?

I endorse association hockey and dislike the recruiting by private schools of second year peewees. However the process described by you appears to be mean and designed to force an answer. Surely there is a better approach.

[iwearmysunglassesatnight]

Remember as Frederick pointed out coaches kept peewees from being recruited away last year by an outside association or private....

Here is something to ponder, why is it that Prior Lake is not having a bantam B or Bantam B2 team this year.. One A, and two C's.

[boardmember]

A few things,

It's unlikely they'll get 15 kids with waivers to play with the St. Thomas Bantam B team.

But let's review the steps,

Player registers and pays with their community based youth hockey association. Required to get a USA Hockey registration form.

Player attends tryouts with their community based association.

Teams are formed and player learns he doesn't make A team (that's generally the goal isn't it?)

Player requests waiver from home association.

Waiver likely denied as home association hosts a B team.

Are you suggesting that St. Thomas kids will play for the Prior Lake Bantam A team, with waivers? And, Prior Lake kids will skate on a Bantam B team wearing blue and white?

MN Hockey allowed St. Thomas to form a Bantam B team, with their students, if they're able, which I don't think they will be.

Prior Lake, and District 6, approved a one year experiment. One quick way to screw it up is avoid or break rules starting with the first, register and pay with the home association, step.

Frankly, Prior Lake has made an interesting choice to assist St. Thomas as opposed to being supportive of the community based hockey association model of which they're part of. Being a community based hockey association are they doing everything they can to support partner community based youth hockey associations? Weird choice.

Question, should Prior Lake be penalized by community based youth hockey associations they chose not to support? Maybe the Prior Lake teams should be denied entry into tournaments sponsored by community based hockey organizations. Should all the other associations in the state be supportive of an association that doesn't follow the rules everyone else does? Will associations allow St. Thomas entry into their tournaments that support community based youth hockey?

Everyone in the state plays by the same rules. Play with your community based youth hockey association through your Bantam years. Then everyone moves to school hockey. Should one single group of 4 dads be allowed to make their own rules?

Prior Lake and District 6 made a mistake on this one.

Punish those no good hockey folks for thinking out of the box! How dare they they give those private kids a chance to play youth hockey with their classmates! Stone them!

Lets show Prior Lake how tough we are, YOU CANT PLAY WITH US ANYMORE! We are not letting you in our tournament.

Call them out for not supporting community based hockey like a good believer should!

No choices for anyone!

Follow the rules! What, don't like them? tough Sh&%, they were designed hold everyone back, to force you to not have any choices or avenues other than what we dictate!

Don't recognize those outcasts, dont allow them to drink out of the same water fountains we do! They are not true community based hockey supporters!

Maybe the rules need to change! Maybe MN Hockey needs to loosen their monopoly grip of Winter Hockey! Maybe Observer needs to lighten up on the St Thomas issue before he has a stroke! Its just a game, its youth hockey!


Observer, your opinions and views about hockey would translate you to a communist politically. You are all about shutting down any new ideas. your all about punishing anyone who does not conform to the "Way" of thinking, you are the epitome the sterotype of "Old Mn Hockey"way of thinking, your thought process, like the old guard in MN Hockey, is part of the problem. You want to control and hold hockey back, a Stranglehold!

Commumism
b: a totalitarian system of government in which a single authoritarian party controls all state-owned means of production and functions

Totalitarianism (or totalitarian rule) is a concept used to describe political systems where a state regulates nearly every aspect of public and private life.

Buy yourself a ticket to North Korea!

[sixbucksagallon]

The problem is directly related to recruiting. It is directly related to regulation. And is directly related to rules. Blake is a good example, they can't have an "A" team, so they get 3-4 players that would make anyones "A" team, play them a lot. Win the state tournament at B1. Give me 3-4 really good A team players and we could get Prior Lake's team above 500. Who is going to regulate these players and where they are coming from. I have no problem with them playing in district 6 except for the fact that they will have kids on that team that would make an A team in any other association, including Edina, Eded Prairie, oh and Prior Lake. That no longer becomes fair. Our districts and our state programs are preaching over and over, play of your association, don't play Minnesota Made, don't play AAA... So much so they have passed out a rule that they wanted all associations to look at and put into place. The rule read something like this:

An individual who registers for the current (upcoming) Winter season as a _____ player, who registered and/or played for another association and/or non-_____ team the previous Winter season(s) while still residing or open enrolled within the _______ School District, and who prior to that was registered as a ______ player, will upon his/her return and registration with ______for the current Winter season, have a waiting period of one (1) Winter season before the player is eligible to play, practice or be placed with a _______ “A” team roster.

They gave these out verbatim. Yet, now they are letting them into our district, and they do not have to follow the same rules we are governed by.

Not to mention putting them in District 6, quite possibly the toughest district, where already 2-3 of the best teams in the state won't make it to regionals.

Big mistake District 6, big mistake Minnesota hockey. Soon association hockey will be like a recreation league.

[muckandgrind]

Punish those no good hockey folks for thinking out of the box! How dare they they give those private kids a chance to play youth hockey with their classmates! Stone them!

Lets show Prior Lake how tough we are, YOU CANT PLAY WITH US ANYMORE! We are not letting you in our tournament.

Call them out for not supporting community based hockey like a good believer should!

No choices for anyone!

Follow the rules! What, don't like them? tough Sh&%, they were designed hold everyone back, to force you to not have any choices or avenues other than what we dictate!

Don't recognize those outcasts, dont allow them to drink out of the same water fountains we do! They are not true community based hockey supporters!

Maybe the rules need to change! Maybe MN Hockey needs to loosen their monopoly grip of Winter Hockey! Maybe Observer needs to lighten up on the St Thomas issue before he has a stroke! Its just a game, its youth hockey!


Observer, your opinions and views about hockey would translate you to a communist politically. You are all about shutting down any new ideas. your all about punishing anyone who does not conform to the "Way" of thinking, you are the epitome the sterotype of "Old Mn Hockey"way of thinking, your thought process, like the old guard in MN Hockey, is part of the problem. You want to control and hold hockey back, a Stranglehold!

Commumism
b: a totalitarian system of government in which a single authoritarian party controls all state-owned means of production and functions

Totalitarianism (or totalitarian rule) is a concept used to describe political systems where a state regulates nearly every aspect of public and private life.

Buy yourself a ticket to North Korea!

^^What he said!!!! X2^^

[elliott70]

The problem is directly related to recruiting. It is directly related to regulation. And is directly related to rules. Blake is a good example, they can't have an "A" team, so they get 3-4 players that would make anyones "A" team, play them a lot. Win the state tournament at B1. Give me 3-4 really good A team players and we could get Prior Lake's team above 500. Who is going to regulate these players and where they are coming from. I have no problem with them playing in district 6 except for the fact that they will have kids on that team that would make an A team in any other association, including Edina, Eded Prairie, oh and Prior Lake. That no longer becomes fair. Our districts and our state programs are preaching over and over, play of your association, don't play Minnesota Made, don't play AAA... So much so they have passed out a rule that they wanted all associations to look at and put into place. The rule read something like this:

An individual who registers for the current (upcoming) Winter season as a _____ player, who registered and/or played for another association and/or non-_____ team the previous Winter season(s) while still residing or open enrolled within the _______ School District, and who prior to that was registered as a ______ player, will upon his/her return and registration with ______for the current Winter season, have a waiting period of one (1) Winter season before the player is eligible to play, practice or be placed with a _______ “A” team roster.

They gave these out verbatim. Yet, now they are letting them into our district, and they do not have to follow the same rules we are governed by.

Not to mention putting them in District 6, quite possibly the toughest district, where already 2-3 of the best teams in the state won't make it to regionals.

Big mistake District 6, big mistake Minnesota hockey. Soon association hockey will be like a recreation league.

MN Hockey made no such rule.
The MH discernment committee failed to address the issue.
The MH board then voted not to recognize St Thomas as an affilate association. (Blake was grandfathered in with a sunset clause.)

What the Tommy kids (parents) are doing (or trying to do) is what anyone can do if they get an association to host them (Prior Lake) and can get waivers from the releasing association and approval of the district director (both DDs if player(s) is not from district 6.

[sixbucksagallon]

I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact the guy who got Prior lake to sponsor them, was on the Prior Lake board, and has 2 kids going to St. Thomas? I think then district 6 should let in Bennilde, Holy Angels, Holy Family, and any other group that wants to play. I am going to see if we can sponsor a team from Bernies group?

[elliott70]

I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact the guy who got Prior lake to sponsor them, was on the Prior Lake board, and has 2 kids going to St. Thomas? I think then district 6 should let in Bennilde, Holy Angels, Holy Family, and any other group that wants to play. I am going to see if we can sponsor a team from Bernies group?

All you need are approved waivers.

[conditioningsucks]

So Elliott>

If I read you right - I could take a AAA team, and if I could a) get waivers from their associations, b) get an association to host us, and c) get District Director approval; I could form my own team?

This only makes sense in the context of STA. While Observer and others have their opinions, mine is focused on fairness to all players. Right now, my kid, who does not attend a private school has only one option for winter hockey - playing with his association.

Meanwhile, a kid from Blake or STA (or any other private that wants to put out their shingle) has options.....they can 1) play association hockey, or 2) play for their specially arranged team.

Even worse, is these folks could 'shop' their talent...deciding to play for their school because the team may be good, deciding to play with their association because there is an easier path to Advanced 15s, etc., etc.

So, if you can confirm: under how MN Hockey has handled this, can I form an "A" team in an outlying District (4, 5, etc.) which is just an all star team of AAA buddies (provided I get waivers, District approval, etc.)? This would be a great opportunity and option - a chance for regions, a chance at Advanced 15s, etc.

I am actually getting pretty excited about this if it can be done.

[elliott70]

So Elliott>

If I read you right - I could take a AAA team, and if I could a) get waivers from their associations, b) get an association to host us, and c) get District Director approval; I could form my own team?

This only makes sense in the context of STA. While Observer and others have their opinions, mine is focused on fairness to all players. Right now, my kid, who does not attend a private school has only one option for winter hockey - playing with his association.

Meanwhile, a kid from Blake or STA (or any other private that wants to put out their shingle) has options.....they can 1) play association hockey, or 2) play for their specially arranged team.

Even worse, is these folks could 'shop' their talent...deciding to play for their school because the team may be good, deciding to play with their association because there is an easier path to Advanced 15s, etc., etc.

So, if you can confirm: under how MN Hockey has handled this, can I form an "A" team in an outlying District (4, 5, etc.) which is just an all star team of AAA buddies (provided I get waivers, District approval, etc.)? This would be a great opportunity and option - a chance for regions, a chance at Advanced 15s, etc.

I am actually getting pretty excited about this if it can be done.

There was no rule past that allowed STA to do this. It is just the way it si per MN Hockey handbook. Some districts have more restrictivve rules, and local associaiotns do not have to agree to a waiver.

An association can field whatever teams they like (with approval from the DD, but that generally means moving an A to b or vice versa).
An association has to abide by all the rules. But waiver rules vary as how they are applied. District 6 is fairly liberal. So, yes, go to Edina and make a request and see what happens. It would not work in D16 because our waiver policy is fairly restrictive.

But it appears Prior Lake is willing to help STA kids play together.
Most DD's would not go for this but that is the rule as it stands.

MN Hockey needs to look at all these issues and do it timely. Discernment started a year ago and is not anywhere near approaching an answer to this and other issues that membership wants.

Perhaps if you act it will push them to coming to some resolution regarding this.

[muckandgrind]

So Elliott>

If I read you right - I could take a AAA team, and if I could a) get waivers from their associations, b) get an association to host us, and c) get District Director approval; I could form my own team?

This only makes sense in the context of STA. While Observer and others have their opinions, mine is focused on fairness to all players. Right now, my kid, who does not attend a private school has only one option for winter hockey - playing with his association.

Meanwhile, a kid from Blake or STA (or any other private that wants to put out their shingle) has options.....they can 1) play association hockey, or 2) play for their specially arranged team.

Even worse, is these folks could 'shop' their talent...deciding to play for their school because the team may be good, deciding to play with their association because there is an easier path to Advanced 15s, etc., etc.

So, if you can confirm: under how MN Hockey has handled this, can I form an "A" team in an outlying District (4, 5, etc.) which is just an all star team of AAA buddies (provided I get waivers, District approval, etc.)? This would be a great opportunity and option - a chance for regions, a chance at Advanced 15s, etc.

I am actually getting pretty excited about this if it can be done.

That's my beef with MN Hockey's monopolistic (is that a word?) hold on hockey in this state. There SHOULD be other options for families who are not happy with their local associations. Just as there are in other sports like baseball.

[observer]

Democracy, a form of government in which the power is held completely by the people under a free electoral system. The first principle is that all members of the society have equal access to power.

Anarchy, absence of government; a state of lawlessness due to the absence or inefficiency of the supreme power; political disorder. A theoretical social state in which there is no governing person or body of persons, but each individual has absolute liberty (without the implication of disorder). Absence or non-recognition of authority, and order, in any given sphere. Without government or law.

Whoa now “Board Member.” First of all you’re obviously not a Board Member. If you are your term is about to expire. You’re the one bellowing about doing your own thing, I’m just stating the rules that are part of our current orderly society. It’s called structure, and, organization.

Nobody is being slighted by the current rules. Everyone has the opportunity to play Bantam B with their community based youth hockey association.

Should every private school have a Bantam B team? Only St. Thomas? That’s selfish and not an equal opportunity for all. Look, the school is smart enough to not back this themselves. From the St. Thomas Web site,
“A group of Saint Thomas Academy parents have organized a Junior Gold B hockey team and a Bantam B hockey team for the upcoming 2008-09 season. The teams will be called Saint Thomas Academy and wear the STA colors, but will not be part of the school’s Athletic Department programs. School administrators and coaching staff are supportive of our undertaking, but it is a parent-driven initiative.”

My guess is the school didn’t want to do the organizing itself as they probably understand better than the 4 dads that they need to be supportive of the neighboring youth hockey associations as they will be supplying future players to St. Thomas. Maybe a better approach would be for the St. Thomas coaches to get out and support youth hockey instead of competing with it. Have their coaches run Bantam clinics for Sibley, Highland-Central and other neighboring youth hockey associations. Be helpful, not harmful.

Minnesota Hockey has areas where they can improve but this isn’t on the top 10 list. All these kids have an opportunity to play bantam hockey with their community based association. We have structure and it’s one that serves 99% of the kids fairly and doesn’t make exceptions for selfish dads that only want to improve their personal situation.

I favor choice where it’s needed. Should there be Tier 1 options for top players? Jr. Gold for kids that don’t make varsity or JV? U16 teams for boys without bantam eligibility, mostly sophomores? These are areas where maybe kids are without opportunities that could be addressed before areas where kids do have opportunities.

Remember, Minnesota Hockey is not Minnesota Youth Hockey so they’re responsible for all hockey in Minnesota not just youth hockey. That may be why they make some unusual decisions on occasion. Should there be an Organization of Minnesota Youth Hockey Associations (OMYHA), part of Minnesota Hockey, that strives to keep the current structure that provides the most benefits for the most youth hockey players? An organization that is focused on preserving the current community youth hockey association model could assist associations like Prior Lake, and District 6, to understand why they need to be supportive of the current structure as opposed to favoring, and supporting, a counterproductive, competing, faction.

Association registration is going on right now for most associations so it will be interesting if the families who would like to have their kids skate with an outside Bantam B team at St. Thomas get their kids registered with their home association, attend tryouts, and request and receive a waiver. Most associations don’t grant waivers just because someone wants to play somewhere else. Let your association leadership know you oppose formation of youth hockey teams by schools and not to grant waivers. I still doubt they’ll have more than 5-6 players and guess they will not field a team.

[elliott70]

Democracy, a form of government in which the power is held completely by the people under a free electoral system. The first principle is that all members of the society have equal access to power.

Anarchy, absence of government; a state of lawlessness due to the absence or inefficiency of the supreme power; political disorder. A theoretical social state in which there is no governing person or body of persons, but each individual has absolute liberty (without the implication of disorder). Absence or non-recognition of authority, and order, in any given sphere. Without government or law.

Whoa now “Board Member.” First of all you’re obviously not a Board Member. If you are your term is about to expire. You’re the one bellowing about doing your own thing, I’m just stating the rules that are part of our current orderly society. It’s called structure, and, organization.

Nobody is being slighted by the current rules. Everyone has the opportunity to play Bantam B with their community based youth hockey association.

Should every private school have a Bantam B team? Only St. Thomas? That’s selfish and not an equal opportunity for all. Look, the school is smart enough to not back this themselves. From the St. Thomas Web site,
“A group of Saint Thomas Academy parents have organized a Junior Gold B hockey team and a Bantam B hockey team for the upcoming 2008-09 season. The teams will be called Saint Thomas Academy and wear the STA colors, but will not be part of the school’s Athletic Department programs. School administrators and coaching staff are supportive of our undertaking, but it is a parent-driven initiative.”

My guess is the school didn’t want to do the organizing itself as they probably understand better than the 4 dads that they need to be supportive of the neighboring youth hockey associations as they will be supplying future players to St. Thomas. Maybe a better approach would be for the St. Thomas coaches to get out and support youth hockey instead of competing with it. Have their coaches run Bantam clinics for Sibley, Highland-Central and other neighboring youth hockey associations. Be helpful, not harmful.

Minnesota Hockey has areas where they can improve but this isn’t on the top 10 list. All these kids have an opportunity to play bantam hockey with their community based association. We have structure and it’s one that serves 99% of the kids fairly and doesn’t make exceptions for selfish dads that only want to improve their personal situation.

I favor choice where it’s needed. Should there be Tier 1 options for top players? Jr. Gold for kids that don’t make varsity or JV? U16 teams for boys without bantam eligibility, mostly sophomores? These are areas where maybe kids are without opportunities that could be addressed before areas where kids do have opportunities.

Remember, Minnesota Hockey is not Minnesota Youth Hockey so they’re responsible for all hockey in Minnesota not just youth hockey. That may be why they make some unusual decisions on occasion. Should there be an Organization of Minnesota Youth Hockey Associations (OMYHA), part of Minnesota Hockey, that strives to keep the current structure that provides the most benefits for the most youth hockey players? An organization that is focused on preserving the current community youth hockey association model could assist associations like Prior Lake, and District 6, to understand why they need to be supportive of the current structure as opposed to favoring, and supporting, a counterproductive, competing, faction.

Association registration is going on right now for most associations so it will be interesting if the families who would like to have their kids skate with an outside Bantam B team at St. Thomas get their kids registered with their home association, attend tryouts, and request and receive a waiver. Most associations don’t grant waivers just because someone wants to play somewhere else. Let your association leadership know you oppose formation of youth hockey teams by schools and not to grant waivers. I still doubt they’ll have more than 5-6 players and guess they will not field a team.

Right now, other than local presidents and district directors holding their ground, there is nothing to stop anarchy.

If the locals in Warroad and Baudette want to release their best players to Roseau to form a strong team, they could, if I allowed it. But 10 or 12 years ago we formed a committee and provided policy that detailed when waivers would be allowed.

So STA (someone putting that label on a team) has or is trying to do exactly that.

Some of us say that the current rules regarding transfers should not allow it, but there is ambiguity in the rules(s). It needs to be addressed and should be done rather quickly.

[elliott70]

Remember, Minnesota Hockey is not Minnesota Youth Hockey so they’re responsible for all hockey in Minnesota not just youth hockey.

Well, not responsible for pro, college (inter and intra), high school (except Jr Gold/16U), and most senior men across the state are not part of MH.
Off-season programs (ie AAA teams) for the large part are not covered by MH.

[elliott70]

I believe the problem 'board member' and some others have without allowing private school teams is the discrimation some players are exposed to in s[u]ome[/u] associations. Kid is not playing for HS XYZ, then they are not playing bantam A's for Association XYZ.

[Eastonrocks]

Is this a correct understanding?

Any player can play in any association if (1) his local assn waives him out; (2) the other assn waive him in and (3) all affected district directors approve.

It seems the stopping point is the "waive out" association.

Back in the olden days (early 80's) MN HS Hockey had a free transfer rule as long as the school being exited signed a waiver. One year, Hill Murray had 14 kids apply for transfers in the week after hockey tryouts, so they refused to waive the kids out. The kids changed schools, but could not play for the the new one. This stemmed the transfer problem.

[O-townClown]

Back in the olden days (early 80's) MN HS Hockey had a free transfer rule as long as the school being exited signed a waiver. One year, Hill Murray had 14 kids apply for transfers in the week after hockey tryouts, so they refused to waive the kids out. The kids changed schools, but could not play for the the new one. This stemmed the transfer problem.

In other words, some kids were only going to Hill-Murray for the hockey!

[elliott70]

Is this a correct understanding?

Any player can play in any association if (1) his local assn waives him out; (2) the other assn waive him in and (3) all affected district directors approve.

That is how it works.

[frederick61]

Is this a correct understanding?

Any player can play in any association if (1) his local assn waives him out; (2) the other assn waive him in and (3) all affected district directors approve.

That is how it works.

But Elliott one of the foundations for Minnesota hockey being structured differently from USA Hockey when it comes to age eligibility is to link the kids to the high schools correctly.

For most sports the new high school rule on transfers (being done by Jan 15 in a kids 8th grade year to avoid penalty) has minimal impact on the kids. But for hockey it does impact the kid because the 8th and 9th grades are usually Bantam years. Shouldn't this be looked at by Minnesota Hockey to be fair to the kids who for legitimate reasons (such as a better education) want to transfer and play hockey?

[davinci]

Is this a correct understanding?

Any player can play in any association if (1) his local assn waives him out; (2) the other assn waive him in and (3) all affected district directors approve.

That is how it works.

delete

[SEMetro]

Frankly, Prior Lake has made an interesting choice to assist St. Thomas as opposed to being supportive of the community based hockey association model of which they're part of. Being a community based hockey association are they doing everything they can to support partner community based youth hockey associations?

C'mon. This one isn't too tough. What does St. Thomas Academy have that Prior Lake and every other association in the south metro want really really bad?

Hint: It's not the team jerseys.

[council member retired]

A) Good clean haircuts
B) Fullbacks that can also play hockey
C) A ICE ARENA ?