Miracle/Cyclones ???????

MrBoDangles · Post by **MrBoDangles** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:25 pm

Anyone have any (positive) opinions on the better team choice for AAA summer hockey? Thank you in advance.

Educator29 · Post by **Educator29** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:50 pm

a couple people getting Rich off your $$$$

muckandgrind · Post by **muckandgrind** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:15 pm

The Cyclones are more of an "invitational" club that focuses heavily on development. It's basically attempting to become the "Minnesota Made of the Northern Suburbs". Lots and lots of ice and thus is quite expensive I have heard mixed opinions about the program; some good, some not so good.

The Miracle is newer and would be considered more of an "open" club, I don't know much about them...other than they probably won't have as many high calibre players as the Cyclones will.

JoltDelivered · Post by **JoltDelivered** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:54 pm

a couple people getting Rich off your $$$$

You know I have often wondered about this too. Profiting off hockey I mean.

Why is it when summer hockey teams charge, let's say, $1,500 for the summer season they are getting rich, but when winter hockey charges essentially the same amount, they are doing it for the greater good of the team/community?

From a pure checkbook/financial point of view, your paying relatively the same amount of money in winter and summer (give or take a few hundred bucks and depending on the program) and getting essentially the same kind of product - hockey training for your child. One could argue which product is better - summer or winter but that will vary player by player, program by program. And if you are saying summer coaches get paid for their time and therefore profit and winter coaches "volunteer" well, I'll have you know our "A" level winter coaches in our association get paid for their time therfore incur a profit.

I know my winter association has a rather large amount of cash in a general fund that true, doesn't all go to one rich individual but rather gets spent on alot of hockey stuff but it also gets spent on board members meals/drinks after meetings, credit card expenses, etc...

One thing I have noticed is hockey training has become more of a product you buy like you would buy cable TV or a cell phone or a car. You shop around, look for the best deal, biggest bang for your buck and purchase. Is this bad? I don't know. But I will say that when I grew up and played hockey (twin cities) I didn't get anywhere near the training or coaching that my kids are getting today - winter or summer.

I guess what I'm trying to say is the way I look at is if I worried about people getting rich of my $$$$, I really wouldn't buy anything in this world.

As far as summer programs go, I'll tell you the same thing I tell everyone else that asks me about summer hockey programs - try it on for yourself. Let the experience unfold and happen. For every knuckle head out there that thinks they're kid got jipped or the program stunk, there's another family out there who loved the experience. It's good to ask around and get ideas and opinions but you really aren't going to get the true answer until you experience it yourself.

Oh, and Muck hit the nail on the head describing the two programs.

d10dad · Post by **d10dad** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:21 pm

JoltDelivered wrote:
a couple people getting Rich off your $$$$
You know I have often wondered about this too. Profiting off hockey I mean.

Why is it when summer hockey teams charge, let's say, $1,500 for the summer season they are getting rich, but when winter hockey charges essentially the same amount, they are doing it for the greater good of the team/community?

From a pure checkbook/financial point of view, your paying relatively the same amount of money in winter and summer (give or take a few hundred bucks and depending on the program) and getting essentially the same kind of product - hockey training for your child. One could argue which product is better - summer or winter but that will vary player by player, program by program. And if you are saying summer coaches get paid for their time and therefore profit and winter coaches "volunteer" well, I'll have you know our "A" level winter coaches in our association get paid for their time therfore incur a profit.

I know my winter association has a rather large amount of cash in a general fund that true, doesn't all go to one rich individual but rather gets spent on alot of hockey stuff but it also gets spent on board members meals/drinks after meetings, credit card expenses, etc...

One thing I have noticed is hockey training has become more of a product you buy like you would buy cable TV or a cell phone or a car. You shop around, look for the best deal, biggest bang for your buck and purchase. Is this bad? I don't know. But I will say that when I grew up and played hockey (twin cities) I didn't get anywhere near the training or coaching that my kids are getting today - winter or summer.

I guess what I'm trying to say is the way I look at is if I worried about people getting rich of my $$$$, I really wouldn't buy anything in this world.

As far as the two programs above that you mentioned, I'll tell you the same thing I tell everyone else that asks me about summer hockey programs - try it on for yourself. Let the experience unfold and happen. For every knuckle head out there that thinks they're kid got jipped or the program stunk, there's another family out there who loved the experience. it's good to ask around and get ideas and opinions but you really aren't going ot get the true answer until you experience it yourself.

Well Put Jolt...

Not to mention Association's get gambling funds to help reduce costs...

Cost:
1. How many Practice\total hours of ice did you get with your association?
2. How many tournaments with your association?
3. What was your total cost for your association hockey (registration, Ice bills, team assessments, etc)?

Now compare that cost to Summer hockey, probably very Comparable…

My 2 boys and now daughter will be with Cyclone Hockey for their 3rd year this Summer and can't wait for it to start...
The retention rate is high, most team players are coming back, very few leave.

My_Kid_Loves_Hockey · Post by **My_Kid_Loves_Hockey** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:48 pm

This is a bit off the original topic but:

in most summer hockey you will have solo practice's unlike winter where 8 out of 10 are shared ice time. This has an affect on cost. Summer ice may(may not) be cheaper per hour depending on what rinks have ice and where they are. Many times you can buy ice for $120-150/hour where in winter $180-200. Since ice time is your biggest cost this is a huge difference maker.

Winter tournaments cost $300-600 where summer you pay $950-$1600.

Some summer teams have practice players that just want ice time and are not so concerned about games, this factors into cost too.

I think that your association coach is getting paid quite a bit less than the people that are doing this for a living. In our association they get somewhere around $100-200 for a season of coaching. Don't think to many for profit summer guy's are doing it for that.

muckandgrind · Post by **muckandgrind** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:59 pm

My_Kid_Loves_Hockey wrote:This is a bit off the original topic but:

in most summer hockey you will have solo practice's unlike winter where 8 out of 10 are shared ice time. This has an affect on cost. Summer ice may(may not) be cheaper per hour depending on what rinks have ice and where they are. Many times you can buy ice for $120-150/hour where in winter $180-200. Since ice time is your biggest cost this is a huge difference maker.

Winter tournaments cost $300-600 where summer you pay $950-$1600.

Some summer teams have practice players that just want ice time and are not so concerned about games, this factors into cost too.

I think that your association coach is getting paid quite a bit less than the people that are doing this for a living. In our association they get somewhere around $100-200 for a season of coaching. Don't think to many for profit summer guy's are doing it for that.

That's pretty cheap. I know of some associations that will pay in the neighborhood of $2-3,000 + expenses for a good non-parent coach in the winter.

In my opinion, coaching and ice time are the biggest factors you need to consider. It's my opinion (and my son's as well), that the best coaching my Bantam has received was through AAA.

I also don't have a problem with the coach or program making a profit, as long as my son is developing and having lots of fun along the way...this IS America, ain't it???

MrBoDangles · Post by **MrBoDangles** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:15 pm

If a person can make a good living from this, great. The rate for hourly ice time is very comparable to winter assoc.- The coaching and training just from tryouts seem lightyears ahead. Hockey could be kind of a bargain, I can't imagine what parent's must pay for piano and tennis hourly, and hockey is way funner to watch. Just looking for thoughts on the teams.

DMom · Post by **DMom** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:15 am

In season ice costs are at a premium (some arenas asking $200 for primetime hours now), off season ice can be had for much cheaper rates.
I gaurantee you if our board was having meals and drinks paid for by the association, I would be the first in line to complain about it. As far as large general funds go, maybe that's where our association goes wrong. Here every dollar is accounted for on ice bills and the rest is refunded, isn't that how everyone does it?

That veered off topic a bit. What is development? I think of it as buying a product like Jolt. As long as my child gains abilities than the money is worth it, as long as we have it to spend. (oh, but wait there's that fun factor which is intangible). It's yet to be seen how the bad economy will effect hockey, both in season and off season teams.

gilmour · Post by **gilmour** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:31 am

MrBoDangles wrote:If a person can make a good living from this, great. The rate for hourly ice time is very comparable to winter assoc.- The coaching and training just from tryouts seem lightyears ahead. Hockey could be kind of a bargain, I can't imagine what parent's must pay for piano and tennis hourly, and hockey is way funner to watch. Just looking for thoughts on the teams.

what age level are you asking about?

MrBoDangles · Post by **MrBoDangles** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:10 am

trippedovertheblueline · Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:29 am

"2000- My son played on a showcase 99 AAA team last year as a 1st grader playing with 2nd and 3rd graders on a pretty laid back team. He had a great time (but little skills training). Just looking for the better option of the two teams."

This should get a few responses

muckandgrind · Post by **muckandgrind** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:34 am

[post deleted]

play4fun · Post by **play4fun** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:35 am

Tough to define "better" as each program offers a different experience.

First off, I'm assuming your 2000 has received an invitation from both teams -- or you're confident that he will have his choice of either program.

If that's the case, then I'd start with a conversation with each of the head coaches to get a feel for their styles, and what they intend to focus on during the course of their practices and games. The coach matters as much or more than the name of the program, and that's going to vary team by team, from program to program. These coaches serve as role models, and kids at mite/squirt age are very impressionable. Picking a coach that can communicate well with your kid, and that meshes with your kids personality is just as important sometimes as the actual drills.

Overall, if you think your 2000 would enjoy and benefit from a more intense program, I'd lean Cyclones. The Miracle will also provide good development, but less ice time (60 to 70 hours vs. 100 or so).

Good luck!

play4fun · Post by **play4fun** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:37 am

Muck,

I think it was a 2000 playing up on a 99 team. Happens all the time - but you know that. Just misread?

muckandgrind · Post by **muckandgrind** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:37 am

play4fun wrote:Muck,

I think it was a 2000 playing up on a 99 team. Happens all the time - but you know that. Just misread?

I got it...just deleted my post.

I agree with Play4Fun....talk to your son also, ask him what he would like to do. I hear the Cyclones can be quite demanding (that's not to say they don't try to make it fun).

When my kids were that young, I just had they play in spring or fall leagues. Sure, not as much practice time, but they had fun and they still got more skating in. Just my opinion.

Winter tournaments cost $300-600 where summer you pay $950-$1600.

I don't believe that most summer tournaments charge a gate fee. That makes up a large part of the difference between the costs you presented.

netminder.net · Post by **netminder.net** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:46 am

Winter tournaments cost $300-600 where summer you pay $950-$1600

I also think many associations would like to find winter tournaments in this price range

WildFan · Post by **WildFan** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:57 am

if he's a '00 make sure you don't get him into a hard core disciplined atmoshere. Make sure he'll be in a environment where he'll learn and have fun. The kids is 8 yrs old....no need to rush him into a Herb Brooks type of discipline. No offense but if those teams are still forming this late make sure they'll be playing open tourney and not invites since most of the other teams have already held tryouts and the talent level may be slim right now.

mnhcp · Post by **mnhcp** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:59 am

deleted.

yeahyeahyeah · Post by **yeahyeahyeah** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:05 pm

First post....take it easy on me please. My son has been involved in both types of programs. A laid back AAA Open style program and Cyclones.
When you say the coach is the primary factor in the ulitmate decision, I think that is true in a program that does not have a developmental philosophy like the Cyclone program. Cyclones have a development structure that is consistent for each team. With Cyclones you will get what is preached on their website no matter the coach.
They teach skils skills skills skills then puck possession. The progression is organized by the program director and each level coach is required to follow that progression. At all of our practices there were program "directors/coaches" on ice to insure the skills are being taught properly and that the progression is being followed. The result I witnessed was different than that of an open type program where each team/coach had their own philosophies and no real road map on where the team was going.
I learned that ice time alone will not develop a players mechanics, if not taught properly bad habits get formed and reinforced. Last summer I watched kids change mechanics, change bad habits and eventually by the end of summer become very successful.
I hope this helps. In the end, to each his/her own. We, like you, wanted to see our son pushed more than he was at the open level. He had fun in both places because winning is fun and the other atmosphere was just laid back.
It was obvious though which made him a better player and person. He also made me put a team sticker on my car.....So that was a good sign.

MrBoDangles · Post by **MrBoDangles** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:54 pm

Sorry for the confusion muckandgrind, pointed out last year so the AAA boo birds wouldn't peck me apart as bad (late 2000 born). Thanks for the info everyone! Two great programs with alot to be proud of.

Marty · Post by **Marty** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:41 pm

Showcase AAA, Cyclones, Miracle are all essentially made for "profit" teams. Let them show you there "non-profit" incorporation license if they claim otherwise. Now whether they actually turn a profit depends upon money in vs money spent ... some will do better than others.

An average player cost on a traveling Squirt or PW team in an association costs between $600 - $800. Add another $150 for tournaments. For that money the players gets say 100 hours of ice time over the season. Volunteers make an association run!

Showcase runs about $900 for 50+ hours. Cyclones are well over $1000 for 100 hours of ice. If you have a good coach and the players get along then I am not going to tell you not to spend the money ... In the absence of volunteers, you need a paid staff to book ice, establish coaches, coach the team, run the business, answer the phone. Again nothing wrong with this. It is just a different way ...

Regarding tournaments. Summer tournaments do not have gate fees and all have 4 game minimums. Winter tournaments are now running $500 - $600 for 3 games. PLUS most want at least $20 gate fee per player which easily runs the rate right up to $900. About the same ....

JoltDelivered · Post by **JoltDelivered** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:13 pm

An average player cost on a traveling Squirt or PW team in an association costs between $600 - $800.

I want into your association. My son's squirt A team fee was $1,300 this year. Which didn't include the $160 registation fee.

Heck, my U10 girl's team fee was $900.

muckandgrind · Post by **muckandgrind** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:21 pm

JoltDelivered wrote:
An average player cost on a traveling Squirt or PW team in an association costs between $600 - $800.

I want into your association. My son's squirt A team fee was $1,300 this year. Which didn't include the $160 registation fee.

Heck, my U10 girl's team fee was $900.

I was going to say the same thing. My younger son's Squirt fees were: $225 registration/tryout fee and $900 for ice and tourneys for a rough total of $1100. My Bantam age son's fees were $250 registration/tryout fee plus $1200 for ice and tourneys for a rough total of $1500.

Marty · Post by **Marty** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:57 pm

Your right add another $100 team costs (looking at fees two years ago), add another $40 for USAH registration and $60 try-out fee. Missed that on the 1st pass. Still cost is about a grand for SQA and PW hockey.

Even at $1300 for I assume a minimum of 130 hours of ice over 5 - 6 months >> association costs are much lower than Showcase AAA.

Showcase AAA was fun for our son, but I do not believe it was the best value for $ spent ...

did like the touch-up off-sides in tournaments and the longer game times.