Section seedings?

[HShockeywatcher]

When are the sections going to be seeded?

[The51]

2AA
1. Jefferson
2. Edina
3. Holy Angels

3AA
1. Woodbury
2. Cretin
3. Apple Valley

4AA
1. Hill Murray
2. Tartan
3. White Bear Lake
4. Roseville
5. Stillwater

5AA
1. Centennial
2. Blaine
3. Maple Grove
4. Osseo

6AA
1. Eden Prairie
2. Minnetonka
3. Wayzata
4. BSM
5. Hopkins

7AA
1. Duluth East
2. Elk River
3. Cloquet

8AA
1. Moorhead
2. Roseau

[karl(east)]

The question was "when," not "how."

It depends on when each individual section meeting is, but sometime mid-week would be my guess.

7AA and 8AA have play-ins next Saturday, so before then, obviously.

[Pioneerprideguy]

4AA should be on 2/22.

[RLStars]

6a will be on the 18th

[elliott70]

I believe both 7 & 8 AA & A are next Wednesday, February 18th.

[TheHockeyDJ]

2AA
1. Jefferson
2. Edina
3. Holy Angels

3AA
1. Woodbury
2. Cretin
3. Apple Valley

4AA
1. Hill Murray
2. Tartan
3. White Bear Lake
4. Roseville
5. Stillwater

5AA
1. Centennial
2. Blaine
3. Maple Grove
4. Osseo

6AA
1. Eden Prairie
2. Minnetonka
3. Wayzata
4. BSM
5. Hopkins

7AA
1. Duluth East
2. Elk River
3. Cloquet

8AA
1. Moorhead
2. Roseau

Yeah, I'd say Cloquet is somewhere in the top 3 or 6 too...

[Duluth 4]

2AA
1. Jefferson
2. Edina
3. Holy Angels

3AA
1. Woodbury
2. Cretin
3. Apple Valley

4AA
1. Hill Murray
2. Tartan
3. White Bear Lake
4. Roseville
5. Stillwater

5AA
1. Centennial
2. Blaine
3. Maple Grove
4. Osseo

6AA
1. Eden Prairie
2. Minnetonka
3. Wayzata
4. BSM
5. Hopkins

7AA
1. Duluth East
2. Elk River
3. Cloquet

8AA
1. Moorhead
2. Roseau

Yeah, I'd say Cloquet is somewhere in the top 3 or 6 too...

Cloquet will be lucky to not be playing saturday.

[HShockeywatcher]

If available, should teams be seeded based on how well they do against section opponents or based on how good the teams are overall? Is there are rule of thumb coaches are asked to use in this regard?

[Lucia4President]

If available, should teams be seeded based on how well they do against section opponents or based on how good the teams are overall? Is there are rule of thumb coaches are asked to use in this regard?

They get seeded based on how they do against other teams in the section.

[karl(east)]

If available, should teams be seeded based on how well they do against section opponents or based on how good the teams are overall? Is there are rule of thumb coaches are asked to use in this regard?

I think the way they do it is probably the right way.

Why? Just look at any one of the threads I've been doing for the past two months with rankings. No one will ever agree if we start ranking them holistically. That could get ugly and lead to in-section rivalries in the seeding meetings (not saying these don't exist already, but it'd probably just worsten).

It's not perfect, but it's pretty easy to come to consensus if you're basing it on in-section record.

[HShockeywatcher]

Lucia4President, What is then to be done when there aren't many section games? i.e. section 2AA

If all teams were required to play each section opponent at least once this would be easy, but this is simply not the case.

I have three sections in mind, 2AA, 7AA and 4AA, in wondering about this. I think it's silly that we devote pages and pages of threads to discuss who "should" be where when I'm guessing there is a rule to things.
2AA - No common games between top teams. What is done in this scenario?
7AA - If it is section games, it is East, Elk River, etc and there's no arguing. If it is up for debate, with wins over Blaine (who East lost to) and Centennial, I would think Elk River could get it.
4AA - If it is really section record, Tartan should be #1, right? People are spending pages and pages discussing why a team with 3 section losses should be ranked higher than one with no losses and another whose only loss is to the team with none.

Thanks for your feedback

[karl(east)]

Lucia4President, What is then to be done when there aren't many section games? i.e. section 2AA

If all teams were required to play each section opponent at least once this would be easy, but this is simply not the case.

I have three sections in mind, 2AA, 7AA and 4AA, in wondering about this. I think it's silly that we devote pages and pages of threads to discuss who "should" be where when I'm guessing there is a rule to things.
2AA - No common games between top teams. What is done in this scenario?
7AA - If it is section games, it is East, Elk River, etc and there's no arguing. If it is up for debate, with wins over Blaine (who East lost to) and Centennial, I would think Elk River could get it.
4AA - If it is really section record, Tartan should be #1, right? People are spending pages and pages discussing why a team with 3 section losses should be ranked higher than one with no losses and another whose only loss is to the team with none.

Thanks for your feedback

Not sure if this comment was supposed to be directed at me or Lucia, but I am going to be presumptuous and respond anyway.

First off, I would be an advocate of requiring teams to play others in their section, or at least maybe impose a number of teams (say, five...this way we don't have to worry about forcing schedulings of games like Roseau vs. River Lakes, which do no one any good). In fact, I wouldn't lose a second of sleep if they eliminated conferences and just used sections...but then, I'm an East fan, so I have a bit of an inherent disregard for conferences.

But answering as to why I still think the system we have works best:

2AA-we obviously have an issue, with the two best teams in the section (and some might say in the state) not playing each other. So, guess what? They are going to use SOS, common opponents, overall record, etc. to try to wrangle this out (which, if I am reading you correctly, is the alternative you are suggesting). And it will be ugly. After the 2AA seeding, there will be lots of ranting by fans of some team. I don't think there's any way on earth to avoid that, so long as they don't play each other.

7AA-again, the system we have makes it easy and logical, as opposed to the alternative. Maybe I wouldn't be saying that if I were an ER fan...but then, with all due respect, you are the only person I've seen on here even suggesting that ER should be ranked ahead of DE. If there are others of you out there, speak up and I will delve into this further. But there seems to be a pretty broad consensus on this one. And if it's wrong, there's not much in the way of Elk River proving as such in a few weeks.
-On the side note here, I would point out that ER did lose to Blaine and Centennial too; they just got 2 cracks at them, unlike East. Yes, the second meeting should take some precedence, but...I don't think there's enough there to justify ER jumping up. But this is a discussion for another place, probably.

4AA-admittedly ugly. Personally, I think Tartan should get the #1 seed, whatever the conference results say. If Hill seriously thinks they should get it, well, they should have beaten Tartan at least once in the 2 cracks they got at them. And WBL, though maybe the best actual team in the section, has way too many stupid losses to deserve it. The seedings aren't meant to reflect who has the most talent or take into account things like injuries or off-nights. It's a very simple science based on what actually happened in the games, and using it probably burns the fewest bridges in the end.

Does that help?

[King of the Pond]

After tonight I think Centennial has earned the #1 seed in 5aa

[HShockeywatcher]

karl(east),
I was merely asking because I think it would be the most logical that there would be some guidelines out there and I was curious what they are. The whole burning bridges comment you made makes a lot of sense; instead of arguing, you can simply say this is what happened.

As for my opinion on section 7AA; I wanted to know the guidelines for deciding seeding and then I would decide from there. As I just learned that, unlike in basketball, being the home team has more to do in hockey than simply what color jersey you are wearing. So I simply believe it should be done uniformly as much as possible.

East is 0-1-1 against Blaine/Centennial this year with 7 GF and 9 GA.
Elk River is 2-2 against Blaine/Centennial this year with 11 GF and 12 GA.
One could argue that East's win was at home so it doesn't mean as much. One could argue that as of late Elk River is playing better teams than East and doing a better job of proving who they are.
Ultimately, East beat Elk River and Tartan beat Hill Murray; they should be the top seeds in their respective sections.

To handle this mess next year, Tartan should schedule games with Roseville and WBL next year, Jefferson, Edina and Holy Angels should all schedule games with each other, Eden Prairie should schedule Benilde, Hopkins and Wayzata and all the top Class A teams should play each other during the season so seeding is fair.
Then we will have nothing to discuss but will know how everything does line up not how it may line up IF they played

[karl(east)]

karl(east),
I was merely asking because I think it would be the most logical that there would be some guidelines out there and I was curious what they are. The whole burning bridges comment you made makes a lot of sense; instead of arguing, you can simply say this is what happened.

As for my opinion on section 7AA; I wanted to know the guidelines for deciding seeding and then I would decide from there. As I just learned that, unlike in basketball, being the home team has more to do in hockey than simply what color jersey you are wearing. So I simply believe it should be done uniformly as much as possible.

East is 0-1-1 against Blaine/Centennial this year with 7 GF and 9 GA.
Elk River is 2-2 against Blaine/Centennial this year with 11 GF and 12 GA.
One could argue that East's win was at home so it doesn't mean as much. One could argue that as of late Elk River is playing better teams than East and doing a better job of proving who they are.
Ultimately, East beat Elk River and Tartan beat Hill Murray; they should be the top seeds in their respective sections.

To handle this mess next year, Tartan should schedule games with Roseville and WBL next year, Jefferson, Edina and Holy Angels should all schedule games with each other, Eden Prairie should schedule Benilde, Hopkins and Wayzata and all the top Class A teams should play each other during the season so seeding is fair.
Then we will have nothing to discuss but will know how everything does line up not how it may line up IF they played

I am biased in this discussion, of course, but I would also point out that in that 5-3 East win, 3 of East's top players sat out the first period for a minor team rule violation, and that East outshot ER 33-4 over the next two periods.

And yes, good teams scheduling all the other good teams in their section would make this so much easier, but like you say, what would we have to argue about then?

[HShockeywatcher]

karl(east),
I live in Duluth. Seeing East go to state and do some damage would be really cool. After seeing they have never had a losing record I gained a lot more respect for the program. I simply think things should be uniform and the team that deserves it should be #1 based on those rules. If St Thomas loses to SSP, SSP deserves to be the #1 seed, despite my believing they are not the #1 team in the section.

To play devil's advocate I could argue that your point shows East to have a team of rule breakers, especially players pertinent to the success of the team.

East should be #1. Hopefully teams in other sections who deserve the honor get it.

[TheHockeyDJ]

karl(east),
I live in Duluth. Seeing East go to state and do some damage would be really cool. After seeing they have never had a losing record I gained a lot more respect for the program. I simply think things should be uniform and the team that deserves it should be #1 based on those rules. If St Thomas loses to SSP, SSP deserves to be the #1 seed, despite my believing they are not the #1 team in the section.

To play devil's advocate I could argue that your point shows East to have a team of rule breakers, especially players pertinent to the success of the team.

East should be #1. Hopefully teams in other sections who deserve the honor get it.

There are no guidelines to seeding. The coaches just put their vote in based on how the feel. So if someone wants to shaft Elk River they could put em at 4 just to be an ass. Happened to Grand Rapids about 7-8 years ago, no way they should have been anywhere but 3 seed and ended up #5 because Randolph said some crap and the other coaches changed their vote, they were afraid of Rapids goalie that year, a foreign exchange student from Finland.

[HShockeywatcher]

So Lucia4President and karl(east) say it is based on how teams do in the section and then rapidsrapids say there are no guidelines. I don't know, which is why I'm asking. Are there really any guidelines certain sections have or that the MSHSL has asked sections to follow or is this all just opinion?

What happens at meetings? karl(east) made it seem like it was a discussion coming up with some sort of consensus, rapidsrapids is making it seem like it's a discussion followed by a ballot vote. Seems quite silly there wouldn't be some pre-determined guidelines for how teams would be ranked so everything could happen in a respectful fashion.

[defense]

So Lucia4President and karl(east) say it is based on how teams do in the section and then rapidsrapids say there are no guidelines. I don't know, which is why I'm asking. Are there really any guidelines certain sections have or that the MSHSL has asked sections to follow or is this all just opinion?

What happens at meetings? karl(east) made it seem like it was a discussion coming up with some sort of consensus, rapidsrapids is making it seem like it's a discussion followed by a ballot vote. Seems quite silly there wouldn't be some pre-determined guidelines for how teams would be ranked so everything could happen in a respectful fashion.

they do it by record and strength of schedule... unless it is St. Thomas Academy.

[karl(east)]

So Lucia4President and karl(east) say it is based on how teams do in the section and then rapidsrapids say there are no guidelines. I don't know, which is why I'm asking. Are there really any guidelines certain sections have or that the MSHSL has asked sections to follow or is this all just opinion?

What happens at meetings? karl(east) made it seem like it was a discussion coming up with some sort of consensus, rapidsrapids is making it seem like it's a discussion followed by a ballot vote. Seems quite silly there wouldn't be some pre-determined guidelines for how teams would be ranked so everything could happen in a respectful fashion.

Sorry if I sounded misleading; yes, there is a vote at the end. But except for outstanding circumsances (and I can neither confirm nor deny rapidsrapids's allegations against Randolph), in my experience, they end up using the same logic every time, which is putting in-section record first among the criteria. Logically, this provides for an easier consensus than any of the other ways, and is probably why we don't hear too much angry screaming after section rankings, or as much as we would if they did it a different way.

[HShockeywatcher]

After votes are counted, do coaches have the opportunity to say "hey wait, why is team a above team b? that doesn't make sense to me..." and have discussion about what happened?

[goldy313]

I can't speak for every section but many work like this; you rank each team excluding your own, 1-9 (or however many) each place has point value assigned to it, you throw out the high and low - so one school can't rig the seedings and total up all the points and seed the teams accordingly.

Most sections are too big for face to face meetings so coaches call or fax in their seedings. Most sections aren't connected in any way to conferences so you have lots of problems with things such as head to head and common opponents. You also have situations where one conference is so much superior to another that overall records are misleading; Lakeville for instance plays in the Lake, they'd have a much better record playing in the Big Nine, likewise the Big Nine teams wouldn't get as gaudy records if they had to play in the Lake.

I wish we would go to the Iowa system where conferences aren't as important as districts then you have to play everybody in your district and you are seeded straight by that record and predetermined tie breakers rather than having coaches vote, but that's just me.

[Lucia4President]

Here is what I've learned about how sections are usually seeded in my years of watching HS hockey-

1- Section record- Usually, a team plays most of their section rivals. You do have teams that play in a conference where they preset schedule won't allow them to play many section opponents. If a team goes 6-0 against section opponents, then they probably should be the top seed, regardless of how they played in their conference. For example, you have teams like Lakeville South/North who don't preform the best in conference play, but will win a good amount of games against their sectional foes. If they go into the section tourney with a 10-15 record, it might not look like they deserve the 1 seed, but they could be 6-0 against 1AA teams, meaning they will probably get a high seed.

2- Head to head- I think it's kind of clear that if teams have the same section records, whichever team won in the head to head game should be ranked higher. This isn't always the case, though.

3- Overall record- Whichever team has a better record, if the previous two don't help in seeding, should hypothetically be seeded higher. This also helps if two teams didn't play each other during the year, but have both achieved a similar section record. If Team 1 is 21-4, and Team 2 is 19-5-1, Team 1 would possibly be ranked higher, based on overall record.

4- Common opponents- If, for example, Duluth Marshall and Hibbing play 1 time this year, they tie, finish the year with the same record against section opponents, and have a similar overall record, who do you rank higher? Since they tied, head to head won't get you very far. So, say Marshall beat Grand Rapids 5-2, and Hibbing lost to Rapids 4-3. This could give the coaches something to gauge the teams on. Since Marshall beat a common opponent, some would argue they deserve the higher seed.

That's just my take. Obviously some coaches feel differently, and will rank team based on their own assessments. But, I think that a majority of the time, coaches will look at the four things I listed when trying to seed their sections.

[SEMinnHockeyNut]

There are five criteria used for seeding depending upon the section and they are not supposed to be in any order.

They are: W/L record, section record, conference standing, record vs common opponents/head to head, and strength of schedule.

ALL should be considered, not just one or two. A face to face meeting between coaches is also the best way.

Last year Section 1AA had some strange seedings and now they will meet face to face. However things seem to be clearer this year with Mayo beating everyone and Century losing to both Lakevilles but sweeping Owatonna.

1- Mayo
2-3 LS/LN whoever wins their next game
4 Century
5-6 Owatonna/Winona same as the Lakevilles
7 Farmington
8 JM
9 Dodge County
10 Le Seuer/St. Peter/Montgomery/Lonsdale