Is District 6 too soft?

panpan111 · Post by **panpan111** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:32 am

After watching the Cake Eater this weekend I had to ask myself if District 6 is allowing Girls hockey to evolve. I thought things were called way too tight, not allowing the Girls to be aggresive and intimidating. I think the refs from D6 should get out and watch Girls JV, Varsity, College, D2, D10, and any hockey up north. That is how hockey should be played. Girls are getting bigger, stronger, faster! Let them PLAY!

drop_the_puck · Post by **drop_the_puck** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:54 am

I thought things were called way too tight, not allowing the Girls to be aggresive and intimidating.

Let's take a look at penalty minutes for the various 12U A teams in the 3 games of pool play in the Cake Eaters this weekend.

D3
OMG: 20 minutes
Wayzata: 10 minutes

D6
Bloomington: 6 minutes
Eden Prairie: 8 minutes
Edina: 14 minutes

D8
Cottage Grove: 6 minutes
Eagan: 12 minutes
Lakeville S: 16 minutes
REV: 28 minutes

D10
Blaine: 12 minutes
Centennial: 54 minutes (must prefer playing the penalty kill)

Other
Thunder Bay: 28 minutes

Over three games, Centennial, by itself, had almost as many penalty minutes (54) as the five D3 and D6 teams combined (58) and almost twice as many as the next most penalized teams (REV and Thunder Bay at 28, who both were in Pool B with Centennial).

Was this a D6 ref bias against their enforcer style of hockey? Even if the D6 refs were calling the games tighter than Centennial was used to, could they not, over the course of three games, tone down their aggression accordingly?

Having watched a couple of their games this weekend, the Centennial girls appear to have the hockey skills to compete at the high levels in 12U, but shouldn't have to resort to such overt "aggression" and "intimidation" to win girls hockey.

Also, one side item to note:

Four of the least penalized teams in pool play were the most successful in the tournament:

1. Eden Prairie (8 min, D6)
2. Edina (14 min, D6)
3. Cottage Grove (6 min, D8)
4. Blaine (12 min, D10)

Rocket78 · Post by **Rocket78** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:27 am

D6 teams are used to playing under the D6 reffing. They have years to get used to it rather than days like the visiting teams. Our travel teams seem to get more penalty minutes at home than they do on the road

.

I have found that most youth refs do not 'get' girls hockey. Just because there was a collison or somebody fell down does not equate to an automatic penalty. Metro teams also pick a lot and get away with it so apparently that's the defensive style rather than bumping.

sinbin · Post by **sinbin** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:41 am

14UA at Cake-eaters was called very loosely, with very few penalties, although a tighter crew certainly could have called a lot more.

blondegirlsdad · Post by **blondegirlsdad** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:21 am

12B was reffed by the blind, I think. You couldn't go for rebound, even before the whistle blew. Offsides was loosely called. We had a goal against scored off an obvious icing call when the refs didn't realize the other team was at full strength. The main problem with 12B is when a bigger, more aggressive girl goes in against a less skilled little girl, it's a penalty waiting to happen - they inevitably call it. But a little girl can take numerous two-handers on bigger girls, grab them, even take runs at them, but they never get called. Very frustrating for the bigger, more skilled girls. When they turn around and do it the whistle always comes. It just never gets called consistently. Either let it all go, or call all of it, don't make different rules just because some kids are larger.

But I figure that D6 is not putting its most experienced refs into the 12B girls pool. I'm sure the refs tried their best, and I appreciate them taking their time. If they can use the experience they're getting at 12B to make them better refs, good for them.

redarmydad · Post by **redarmydad** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:02 pm

Can we agree that Centennial received a few bad calls and a few justified. The problem lies when the team is giving an unfair classification as an over aggressive team. Yes there were some bad penalties and yes little girls get knocked down and the bigger girls get the penalty. But in all fairness they definitely seemed to get branded as a "Physical Team"! I heard from other teams as well including EP and Blaine that the referees were calling things way to tight. YES EDEN PRAIRIE SAID THAT!!!!!! Even though they won and spanked edina they still agreed that some of the referees were the worst they had seen.

LOVE THE GAME NOT THE PARENTS[/quote]

panpan111 · Post by **panpan111** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:25 pm

Hey drop_the_puck....why don't you use your normal screen name? Why are you focusing on Centennial? One would think you are a ref...not!
I was watching several games including Centennial. I would not refer to Centennial as playing "enforcer style" hockey and using "overt aggresion & intimidation" to win hockey games. They don't give you much space and they are strong to their skates. That equates to "enforcer" style hockey? Looking at the D10 website, it looks like they have recieved all their Fair Play Points in 5 games this season. Maybe the Cake got the best of them!
Focus puckman....D6 refs are the issue, not Centennial!
As far as Blaine and Cottage Grove....Nice Pool!
[/quote]

drop_the_puck · Post by **drop_the_puck** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:28 pm

panpan111 wrote:Looking at the D10 website, it looks like they have recieved all their Fair Play Points in 5 games this season. Maybe the Cake got the best of them!

If Centennial has received all of their FPP points in 5 league games, Congratulations! So, who spiked the cake they fed the players (and refs) at the Cake Eater?

My point was that looking at the stats, Centennial had WAY more penalty minutes than the other teams. That's a fact. Additionally, they had more penalty minutes than the other team in all three of their games in pool play. Another fact.

So, logically, either the refs singled them out or they played more aggressively than the other team and got called on their aggression more.

My "lying" eyes saw more than a few missed calls in the parts of the games I saw, including a check from behind. I'm generally of the let 'em play mentality, but not at the expense of injuring opponents. And, I do agree, that some refs are intolerant of slight physicality, but I don't agree that was very often the case in what I saw this weekend.

readarmydad wrote:I heard from other teams as well including EP and Blaine that the referees were calling things way to tight. YES EDEN PRAIRIE SAID THAT!!!!!!

OK, where are the Blaine and EP forum contributors when you need them? <crickets>

redarmydad wrote:The problem lies when the team is giving an unfair classification as an over aggressive team. Yes there were some bad penalties and yes little girls get knocked down and the bigger girls get the penalty. But in all fairness they definitely seemed to get branded as a "Physical Team"!

We have to ask ourselves: does this branding spontaneously happen or can it be backed up by facts? I'm willing to accept the Cake Eater penalty result as an outlier. Let's monitor as the season progresses.

panpan111 wrote:why don't you use your normal screen name?

Could it be that I've just graduated from long time lurker to regular BS'er (I mean, contributor) to this fine forum?

Pens4 · Post by **Pens4** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:27 pm

panpan111 wrote:After watching the Cake Eater this weekend I had to ask myself if District 6 is allowing Girls hockey to evolve. I thought things were called way too tight, not allowing the Girls to be aggresive and intimidating. I think the refs from D6 should get out and watch Girls JV, Varsity, College, D2, D10, and any hockey up north. That is how hockey should be played. Girls are getting bigger, stronger, faster! Let them PLAY!

What a coincidence....I used a similiar line to the ref during the Centennial game. But my quote was, "The hooking and holding and interference going on out there are penalties in 10 diferrent leagues including the NHL."

When I got older and slower as a player, I just got a longer stick...those days are over. Skating & puck protection & puck possession is how the NHL is played and the level that resembles that the closest is girls hockey. If the stick goes horizontal on a backcheck- it's a penalty...blow into a scrum out of control -its a penalty. Clear someone out of the front of the net before the shot comes - its a penalty.

Its a new game fella's....like it or not the days of using solid ash penalty killing sticks are over.

redarmydad · Post by **redarmydad** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:03 am

d-t-p you are on the right track. Sometimes a team does get there due, but in this case I think it was just simply a little different style of refereeing along with a different style of play. Pens4, in that game we saw a little deviousness from both teams. Be fair and acknowledge that at least!

The topic in my eyes is why is there a different standard for each district. The advantage goes to a home team with knowing there style of refs. Why is it not a standard state wide? If fair is how we want it, that is how it should be. We all know that when we enter the realms of D 16 and the outliers that the game changes a little. I say go one way or the other and make it a standard through out. I would lean to a more physical side but that is IMHO.

"You were born to be hockey players, every wunya!"

D10RoXyourSoX · Post by **D10RoXyourSoX** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:36 am

Please, enthusiastic parents, keep your passion for hockey just that and let the Refs/Coaches & players do their job.

Get away from the tunnel vision RAD!! You have to quit assuming "everyone" is out to get Centennial. Look at it from another view if you are capable of doing so. Let me help you sort out some of your confusion (bias) a little.

The two teams that went to the finals were Eden Prairie & Edina (2-1 EP in OT) and someone pointed out that they had fewer penalty minutes. They have a deeper pool of skilled hockey players. Players that can read the play and make plays effectively. Deeper skills ie.. better stick handlers, shooters, passers and most importantly considerably better coaching. Look at the resumes of those coaches, hard to refute the succes they have had at the end of the season. I only wish our association could muster up that sort of success and talent to coach our kids.

Cottage Grove just not as good, skilled or physically at this point in the season, slower skaters and far less skilled players with the full compliment. Again, far less penalty minutes.

Blaine had fewer penalty minutes because they only have what, 9 Players, they cannot afford to get a penalty. Kudos to the picture happy Coach on the bench to have the sense to coach his girls not to get a penalty.

BACK TO YOUR TEAM RAD!!
Your Centennial team worked hard (most of the girls, most of the time) but you do not have the coaching behind you to get the most out of your players skills. Once your coach figures out how to assemble lines that he can get the most out of AND continues to develop hockey game understanding ALONG WITH teaching skills correctly and effectively you will see the minutes decrease and team growth. Quit looking for excuses and passing blame onto others to make yourself feel better. TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN TEAM/ASSOCIATION.

Now tell us what happend in your District 10 4-1 loss to Anoka a couple of days ago! Other than Centennial coaches and players, whos fault was it??

Hate the Parents, not the game!!

redarmydad · Post by **redarmydad** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:02 pm

Hey D10 if your intention is to stay sarcastic and patronizing please continue. That is all anyone takes away from your posts. As I said in my prior post we recieved some justified calls in the tourny. I am not stupid enough to think that we lose as a result of poor officials. Take the time to read the posts. After you have read the post take a break and sit in a quiet room and try to comprehend what people are talking about. I know full well our team was responsible for the losses we took. We lost to Anoka for the same reason any team loses. We were not ready and did not come to play. The topic was about referee style in different districts and thoughts as to D6 maybe calling things a little tighter then another district. Yes EP is deep DUH! yes EP has great staff leading the way. AGAIN DUH! DON'T THINK FOR A SECOND I PUT THE BLAME ON ANYONE BUT OUR TEAM FOR OUR LOSSES, I was simpley defending our team as we were outed with our penalty minutes in the Cake Eater. And since you are loking at the scoreboard of our team look and see how many Fairplay points we have. ALL OF THEM! So who here hates CENTENNIAL I think D10RoX does. That my little man is obvious. Your post was nothing more then a personal attack on our team and me. You know who I am and I know who you are so why not keep the comments on topic.

PainITB · Post by **PainITB** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:19 pm

OK D10rox guy why don't you stick to the topic and quite going after the Red Army Dad. I take you have a bone to pick with Centennial for some reason. If you are so in tune on what’s going on with girls hockey why is it that for some odd reason that the Centennial team received more penalties in three game at the cake eaters than in all the other games they have played in the entire season. Move on and leave it alone are you

Bighead · Post by **Bighead** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:03 am

In most cases I really enjoy this forum to discuss topics and get some feedback from hockey fans across the state. I think it is unfotunate when we get posts from guys like D10Rox. Your hatred (or jealousy) for Centennial is evident and acceptable.
What I have a problem with is your evaluation of our players, coaches, and parents. Coaches, players, and parents put many hours into Hockey and they do it for the love of the game.
D10Rox...I don't know who you are or what role you play within your association, but have you ever coached girls? Do you understand that it is December? Do you realize that Districts start in Feb? I think any coach is trying to find an identity for his/her team for the first two months of the season. Our coaching staff is very qualified and capable of leading this team and developing quality individuals as players.
Centennial had 5 girls return from 12UA last year....that means 10 new players and 2 new coaches. As a coach, don't you think it takes time to get it right? EP...consists of great coaching, kids, and a strong association. But you need to realize they have a majority of 2nd year U12A players and many of them play together all summer.....I love it!
Did Centennial lose to Anoka...yes...will they lose again...yes..but this is a journey that our girls want to end in Cottage Grove in March. Where will you be then D10Rox.......
D10Rox....what association or team are you with...lets scrimmage....send me a PM if you dare!
Love the game and the girls.....not the Snipers!

D10RoXyourSoX · Post by **D10RoXyourSoX** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:33 am

RAD --Please re-read my post. You thought the D6 officiating was to soft for your taste. I simply was stating a few "observations" about why your view is/was so scued. Of course IMHO.

RAD, for you information; officials DO NOT only ref in one district. They ref in many other districts throughout the year. Yes there are officials that will only ref in a spcific georgraphic regions, so there will be some refs that work in specific Districts. Now that being said, the officials that I observed during the Cake were also officials I have seen in D5, D2, D10 and D3 in the past. So my point to this is that displacing blame from teams short comings to officials is a bit over the top.

Now, if you noticed from my post I also bashed my own association. You did not catch the coach comment? This individual has torn our program apart at that level and it is no way justified. You saying you know me and making the comment about my height was not unreasonable just fact. So I can take responsibility for my own association. But in your defense, this is a public forum and all posts are opinions, and your opinions a great deal of us find them laughable. Along with RJ04

BH - if you too would have read my post I talked about the season being long. I mentioned that Cottage hopefully will get better as the season goes on as I know EP and Edina will along with your club, hopefully. My comment was, "look at the record at the end of the season" regarding the coaches of EP & Edina, the end of the season is where you sift out the weaker clubs. I do completely understand the long season statement and agree with you and have stated that things can only get better if, IF, you have decent coaching, decent parent group that will get along for the better part of the year and girls that are fully committed to the team plan laid out by the coach. Do you have these particular pieces in place, I dont know, but I hear some parts of the puzzle are lacking. Sorry for that frustration but I know the reality of all those parts, I have lived it, breathed it and tried to change but it is a tough process. Good luck to you BH, hope your group has a good year.

Now, please.... I welcome any points of consideration and reviews, but remember all this is in my humble opinion & everyone has one.

GO BLUE!!

redarmydad · Post by **redarmydad** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:36 pm

[quote="D10RoXyourSoX"]So my point to this is that displacing blame from teams short comings to officials is a bit over the top.

D10 I again am saying I do not blame our losses on the officials. I do delieve I have already said this multiple times in previous posts. Please move on and stop with the personal attacks and let us stay on topic. The issue again was referee style not our team and our coaching staff. The thread title reads as follows " IS D6 TOO SOFT" Not "What is wrong with Centennial's 12UA team". Whatever problem you have with me, PM me and we can hash out our problems there. And as far as my opinions being laughable I say that is fine with me, I know who and where my like minded friends are and I am not the only man with this opinion.
I will say it again. You will see a very different style of referee from region to region. That is all in my humble opinion.

endtoend · Post by **endtoend** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:42 pm

I think RAD has a valid point in that, as we travel with our teams, we see a variety of styles by our referee's. I think that in different regions you receive people from those regions as refs, so in-turn, the mentality of the majority of those from that region seems to be the style of refereeing. I can recall several instances where we traveled to the North and saw an entirely different style. Not that we didn't enjoy our trips but it was a shock for our players the first time. Like wise for our groups from the North who venture south to play the city cake eaters as they call all of us. The same could be said about young inexperienced refs to seasoned referees. It is something we all deal with. Inconsistency is present in all regions I believe so we all grin and bare it.

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