Are Minnesota kids improving?

[MrBoDangles]

There has been a explosion of Minnesota NHL draft picks along the same time line as an explosion of AAA Summer Hockey. Has AAA Summer Hockey been the major change?

If so, is change terrible?

This is not an ad for Obama for president.

[silentbutdeadly3139]

There has been a explosion of Minnesota NHL draft picks along the same time line as an explosion of AAA Summer Hockey. Has AAA Summer Hockey been the major change?

If so, is change terrible?

This is not an ad for Obama for president.

I believe the explosion of summer AAA hockey has been very recent and these kids are not draft age yet so the explosion of NHL draft would be due to association hockey and perhaps other factors.

[muckandgrind]

There has been a explosion of Minnesota NHL draft picks along the same time line as an explosion of AAA Summer Hockey. Has AAA Summer Hockey been the major change?

If so, is change terrible?

This is not an ad for Obama for president.

I believe the explosion of summer AAA hockey has been very recent and these kids are not draft age yet so the explosion of NHL draft would be due to association hockey and perhaps other factors.

While I agree that summer AAA hockey has really exploded big time over the past 5 years, it really started to take off about 10 years ago....so there could be a correlation between the number of Minnesotans being drafted with the expansion of off-season opportunities to develop for the top players. It's probably not the sole factor, but I think it could've played a part....along with the creation of the Shattuck-St Mary's hockey program and other things.

Many, if not all, of the Minnesota boys drafted over the past couple of seasons did play for the top summer AAA teams: Blades, Icemen, Predators, Lightning, etc. to some degree.

[silentbutdeadly3139]

There has been a explosion of Minnesota NHL draft picks along the same time line as an explosion of AAA Summer Hockey. Has AAA Summer Hockey been the major change?

If so, is change terrible?

This is not an ad for Obama for president.

I believe the explosion of summer AAA hockey has been very recent and these kids are not draft age yet so the explosion of NHL draft would be due to association hockey and perhaps other factors.

While I agree that summer AAA hockey has really exploded big time over the past 5 years, it really started to take off about 10 years ago....so there could be a correlation between the number of Minnesotans being drafted with the expansion of off-season opportunities to develop for the top players. It's probably not the sole factor, but I think it could've played a part....along with the creation of the Shattuck-St Mary's hockey program and other things.

Many, if not all, of the Minnesota boys drafted over the past couple of seasons did play for the top summer AAA teams: Blades, Icemen, Predators, Lightning, etc. to some degree.

True, I believe the growth of summer hockey has helped for quite a long time. I focused on the explosion the last 5 years with MANY new teams forming, for which I am glad so my no a superstar child has the opportunity to play some fun summer hockey. It will be interesting to see if and how the recent explosion will translate to HS, College and NHL in the coming years.

[MrBoDangles]

There has been a explosion of Minnesota NHL draft picks along the same time line as an explosion of AAA Summer Hockey. Has AAA Summer Hockey been the major change?

If so, is change terrible?

This is not an ad for Obama for president.

I believe the explosion of summer AAA hockey has been very recent and these kids are not draft age yet so the explosion of NHL draft would be due to association hockey and perhaps other factors.

While I agree that summer AAA hockey has really exploded big time over the past 5 years, it really started to take off about 10 years ago....so there could be a correlation between the number of Minnesotans being drafted with the expansion of off-season opportunities to develop for the top players. It's probably not the sole factor, but I think it could've played a part....along with the creation of the Shattuck-St Mary's hockey program and other things.

Many, if not all, of the Minnesota boys drafted over the past couple of seasons did play for the top summer AAA teams: Blades, Icemen, Predators, Lightning, etc. to some degree.

Seems to be the same scenario looking back even further than 2 years.... unless they were from far northern MN.

[O-townClown]

I think it is funny that some view summer hockey as a recent phenomenon. The shift that occurred says more about parenting styles than anything else.

Spring and summer leagues existed in the Twin Cities in the late 70s. All-Star teams went to Winnipeg in the Spring in the late 70s. People like Ken Yackel, Murray Williamson, Tom Saterdalen, and Mr. Osiecki (Tom?) rank camps in the late 70s.

Some kids moved from to the Twin Cities from California in 1983, and - to the surprise of many - they were better than nearly all the Minnesotans. While it was customary for a Minnesota kid to go to a week of hockey school in the summer, these kids would stay for six or seven.

The American Development Model advocates less hockey and participation in other sports at young ages, but as you move up the ladder it becomes an insane amount of hockey when compared to the old "high school hockey as a Winter Varsity sport" model in Minnesota.

My Squirt team played 48 games, all indoors, in the 70s. At the time HS hockey was making a move from 12 minute periods to 15 and the game cap was just 20 before Sectionals. NHL scouts would watch Minnesota players and they were just more comfortable with Canadians that had been living away from home since age 14 and were playing 70 games, usually with 20 minute stop time periods.

Why are more Minnesotans getting drafted? Because kids are playing more. It is now the accepted standard that strong Minnesota youth and teens are going to play oodles of hockey. These folks would have been looked at like they had two heads when the norm was to take the summer off or skate once a week in a league or go to hockey school for a week.

AAA summer hockey can't get all the credit. Virtually all of it is AA or even single A in level. There are a few clubs that stack up to the "three lines of all-stars" standard.

[O-townClown]

Many, if not all, of the Minnesota boys drafted over the past couple of seasons did play for the top summer AAA teams: Blades, Icemen, Predators, Lightning, etc. to some degree.

Muck, these players are invited to play for the top teams because they are the top players.

College basketball teams routinely recruit very good players that will move on to the NBA. It's real hard to find examples where coaches at lesser programs took muck and molded magnificence.

It is more accurate to say the top players pass through the Blades than are created there.

If McBain can point to a kid in a few years that never played association hockey and moved from his Mite through Pee Wee Choice we'll know that model is capable of churning out, or at least not holding back, someone special. I suspect that approach works too.

Separate question:

Is Bo worried his kid won't get drafted?

[muckandgrind]

Many, if not all, of the Minnesota boys drafted over the past couple of seasons did play for the top summer AAA teams: Blades, Icemen, Predators, Lightning, etc. to some degree.

Muck, these players are invited to play for the top teams because they are the top players.

College basketball teams routinely recruit very good players that will move on to the NBA. It's real hard to find examples where coaches at lesser programs took muck and molded magnificence.

It is more accurate to say the top players pass through the Blades than are created there.

If McBain can point to a kid in a few years that never played association hockey and moved from his Mite through Pee Wee Choice we'll know that model is capable of churning out, or at least not holding back, someone special. I suspect that approach works too.

Separate question:

Is Bo worried his kid won't get drafted?

I don't disagree with that....and I don't think that these AAA programs deserve to take ALL the credit for developing the top players. Like I said, it's probably one of many different factors that play into it.

More opportunities to train = more players getting drafted or moving on to play NCAA or Juniors

[MrBoDangles]

I think it is funny that some view summer hockey as a recent phenomenon. The shift that occurred says more about parenting styles than anything else.

Spring and summer leagues existed in the Twin Cities in the late 70s. All-Star teams went to Winnipeg in the Spring in the late 70s. People like Ken Yackel, Murray Williamson, Tom Saterdalen, and Mr. Osiecki (Tom?) rank camps in the late 70s.

Some kids moved from to the Twin Cities from California in 1983, and - to the surprise of many - they were better than nearly all the Minnesotans. While it was customary for a Minnesota kid to go to a week of hockey school in the summer, these kids would stay for six or seven.

The American Development Model advocates less hockey and participation in other sports at young ages, but as you move up the ladder it becomes an insane amount of hockey when compared to the old "high school hockey as a Winter Varsity sport" model in Minnesota.

My Squirt team played 48 games, all indoors, in the 70s. At the time HS hockey was making a move from 12 minute periods to 15 and the game cap was just 20 before Sectionals. NHL scouts would watch Minnesota players and they were just more comfortable with Canadians that had been living away from home since age 14 and were playing 70 games, usually with 20 minute stop time periods.

Why are more Minnesotans getting drafted? Because kids are playing more. It is now the accepted standard that strong Minnesota youth and teens are going to play oodles of hockey. These folks would have been looked at like they had two heads when the norm was to take the summer off or skate once a week in a league or go to hockey school for a week.

AAA summer hockey can't get all the credit. Virtually all of it is AA or even single A in level. There are a few clubs that stack up to the "three lines of all-stars" standard.

Everything you wrote seems to contradict......

[silentbutdeadly3139]

I think it is funny that some view summer hockey as a recent phenomenon. The shift that occurred says more about parenting styles than anything else.

Spring and summer leagues existed in the Twin Cities in the late 70s. All-Star teams went to Winnipeg in the Spring in the late 70s. People like Ken Yackel, Murray Williamson, Tom Saterdalen, and Mr. Osiecki (Tom?) rank camps in the late 70s.

Some kids moved from to the Twin Cities from California in 1983, and - to the surprise of many - they were better than nearly all the Minnesotans. While it was customary for a Minnesota kid to go to a week of hockey school in the summer, these kids would stay for six or seven.


The American Development Model advocates less hockey and participation in other sports at young ages, but as you move up the ladder it becomes an insane amount of hockey when compared to the old "high school hockey as a Winter Varsity sport" model in Minnesota.

My Squirt team played 48 games, all indoors, in the 70s. At the time HS hockey was making a move from 12 minute periods to 15 and the game cap was just 20 before Sectionals. NHL scouts would watch Minnesota players and they were just more comfortable with Canadians that had been living away from home since age 14 and were playing 70 games, usually with 20 minute stop time periods.

Why are more Minnesotans getting drafted? Because kids are playing more. It is now the accepted standard that strong Minnesota youth and teens are going to play oodles of hockey. These folks would have been looked at like they had two heads when the norm was to take the summer off or skate once a week in a league or go to hockey school for a week.

AAA summer hockey can't get all the credit. Virtually all of it is AA or even single A in level. There are a few clubs that stack up to the "three lines of all-stars" standard.

thats my point ... the explosion of summer hockey whether you call it AAA, AA, A or watered down, whatever has made it available to the masses. And it will be interesting to see if/how more late bloomers, hidden gems etc will translate to HS, college and NHL

[MrBoDangles]

Many, if not all, of the Minnesota boys drafted over the past couple of seasons did play for the top summer AAA teams: Blades, Icemen, Predators, Lightning, etc. to some degree.

Muck, these players are invited to play for the top teams because they are the top players.

College basketball teams routinely recruit very good players that will move on to the NBA. It's real hard to find examples where coaches at lesser programs took muck and molded magnificence.

It is more accurate to say the top players pass through the Blades than are created there.

If McBain can point to a kid in a few years that never played association hockey and moved from his Mite through Pee Wee Choice we'll know that model is capable of churning out, or at least not holding back, someone special. I suspect that approach works too.

Separate question:

Is Bo worried his kid won't get drafted?

Is Clown worried about his little Florida gator falling further behind

[yeti]

So does anyone know where the kids from the big three (blades/machine/icemen) play in the winter season? Do most just play minn. association hockey or do most play AAA? If someone could break it down in % that would be great. Lets take the pee wee levels to start. I see some machine names on southern AAA teams for the fall season, are these kids from minn. or are they from florida?

[O-townClown]

Is Clown worried about his little Florida gator falling further behind

I'm not worried at all. Kids here do just fine. It isn't because there is a club structure and not association, it's because those that want to skate can find an almost unlimited amount of hockey.

Why? Because there isn't much competition for the ice time at the rinks.

We only have 17 facilities. Some are dual-pad. That's not a lot of ice. Why don't we have more? Because there is no need. They'd go out of business. (Some of the 17 are teetering.)

We follow the national calendar. Basically Labor Day to mid-March. When that's done, there are Spring leagues. Because the rinks create a demand for their ice.

Travel players practice two nights per week. If they are motivated and want more ice time they can go to "clinic" or hire a trainer at the synthetic ice facility or hit a "skate n' shoot" session.

Are kids in Florida "held back" because they are in Florida? They are if you say they are. They aren't if you say they aren't. Just like kids in Minnesota aren't "held back" in any way.

Florida has turned out some Division I players. Soon to be more because a lot of these rinks are about 12 years old. Bunches are in the USHL or attending Prep School. A few are in the OHL. The state would turn out more good players if they had more participants. Participation is very low. Our average programs here would compare to the worst of the worst in Minnesota.

When you consider that Minnesota's association system works very well for so many people, doesn't it make you wonder if those saying things are broken have tried to make it work for them?

[MrBoDangles]

Is Clown worried about his little Florida gator falling further behind

I'm not worried at all. Kids here do just fine. It isn't because there is a club structure and not association, it's because those that want to skate can find an almost unlimited amount of hockey.

Why? Because there isn't much competition for the ice time at the rinks.

We only have 17 facilities. Some are dual-pad. That's not a lot of ice. Why don't we have more? Because there is no need. They'd go out of business. (Some of the 17 are teetering.)

We follow the national calendar. Basically Labor Day to mid-March. When that's done, there are Spring leagues. Because the rinks create a demand for their ice.

Travel players practice two nights per week. If they are motivated and want more ice time they can go to "clinic" or hire a trainer at the synthetic ice facility or hit a "skate n' shoot" session.

Are kids in Florida "held back" because they are in Florida? They are if you say they are. They aren't if you say they aren't. Just like kids in Minnesota aren't "held back" in any way.

Florida has turned out some Division I players. Soon to be more because a lot of these rinks are about 12 years old. Bunches are in the USHL or attending Prep School. A few are in the OHL. The state would turn out more good players if they had more participants. Participation is very low. Our average programs here would compare to the worst of the worst in Minnesota.

When you consider that Minnesota's association system works very well for so many people, doesn't it make you wonder if those saying things are broken have tried to make it work for them?

Good for you guys.... Would association hockey still not work well in the areas they already are?

[HockeyDad41]

I believe the explosion of summer AAA hockey has been very recent and these kids are not draft age yet so the explosion of NHL draft would be due to association hockey and perhaps other factors.

While I agree that summer AAA hockey has really exploded big time over the past 5 years, it really started to take off about 10 years ago....so there could be a correlation between the number of Minnesotans being drafted with the expansion of off-season opportunities to develop for the top players. It's probably not the sole factor, but I think it could've played a part....along with the creation of the Shattuck-St Mary's hockey program and other things.

Many, if not all, of the Minnesota boys drafted over the past couple of seasons did play for the top summer AAA teams: Blades, Icemen, Predators, Lightning, etc. to some degree.

True, I believe the growth of summer hockey has helped for quite a long time. I focused on the explosion the last 5 years with MANY new teams forming, for which I am glad so my no a superstar child has the opportunity to play some fun summer hockey. It will be interesting to see if and how the recent explosion will translate to HS, College and NHL in the coming years.

Nicely said. I think 99% of our kids fall into this group.

I've heard talk of a group from one association forming their own AAA summer hockey teams to try to increase the skill level of their players. They are not looking to create super invite teams, just to develop a group of motivated kids that will form the core of future A mite, A Squirt, A Pee Wee etc... teams.

I predict the programs offered by the Northland Group will become very successful simply because they will cater to the "my no a superstar child" crowd.

[O-townClown]

Good for you guys.... Would association hockey still not work well in the areas they already are?

Not sure I understand the question. If you are asking if association hockey would work here, the answer is no.

First off, the rinks aren't municipally run and they don't exist to provide recreational options for area residents. Minnesota's rinks are an amenity and the $170 (or whatever) you pay is a lot less than the market rate here ($250 on low end to 400+ at high end). If a rink knew they had kids that HAD to play at their building it would really mess things up.

Second, our geography is horrible. Our family drives 41 miles to the rink and there are some that live near Vero Beach that do not live within 60 miles of any facility. How do you handle people that are willing to drive an hour or more to participate and not give them the choice to pick where they want to play when two or three facilities are equidistant?

I understand you could live in North Edina and be closer to St. Louis Park's arena than you are to Braemar. But telling a family they are zoned for a rink that is still just 9 minutes from their door hardly seems like Big Brother jerking anyone around.

We had fewer than 400 registered Mites last year. Divided across the 17 facilities it is something like 24 players per. Not all are equal though, so the reality is that sme have less than 10 and some have more than 40. It's easy to figure out what to do when you have the stronger programs, just like in Minnesota. Harder altogether with the weak ones.

What we need to reduce our problems is higher participation, not more regulation.

Deregulating Minnesota Hockey certainly has benefits. I know I've never argued otherwise. Those benefits alone don't make it happen. It has costs too and those are what prevent it from happening.

[MrBoDangles]

I think it is funny that some view summer hockey as a recent phenomenon. The shift that occurred says more about parenting styles than anything else.

Spring and summer leagues existed in the Twin Cities in the late 70s. All-Star teams went to Winnipeg in the Spring in the late 70s. People like Ken Yackel, Murray Williamson, Tom Saterdalen, and Mr. Osiecki (Tom?) rank camps in the late 70s.

Some kids moved from to the Twin Cities from California in 1983, and - to the surprise of many - they were better than nearly all the Minnesotans. While it was customary for a Minnesota kid to go to a week of hockey school in the summer, these kids would stay for six or seven.


The American Development Model advocates less hockey and participation in other sports at young ages, but as you move up the ladder it becomes an insane amount of hockey when compared to the old "high school hockey as a Winter Varsity sport" model in Minnesota.

My Squirt team played 48 games, all indoors, in the 70s. At the time HS hockey was making a move from 12 minute periods to 15 and the game cap was just 20 before Sectionals. NHL scouts would watch Minnesota players and they were just more comfortable with Canadians that had been living away from home since age 14 and were playing 70 games, usually with 20 minute stop time periods.

Why are more Minnesotans getting drafted? Because kids are playing more. It is now the accepted standard that strong Minnesota youth and teens are going to play oodles of hockey. These folks would have been looked at like they had two heads when the norm was to take the summer off or skate once a week in a league or go to hockey school for a week.

AAA summer hockey can't get all the credit. Virtually all of it is AA or even single A in level. There are a few clubs that stack up to the "three lines of all-stars" standard.

thats my point ... the explosion of summer hockey whether you call it AAA, AA, A or watered down, whatever has made it available to the masses. And it will be interesting to see if/how more late bloomers, hidden gems etc will translate to HS, college and NHL

Everything OTC wrote seems to contradict.

[silentbutdeadly3139]

I think it is funny that some view summer hockey as a recent phenomenon. The shift that occurred says more about parenting styles than anything else.

Spring and summer leagues existed in the Twin Cities in the late 70s. All-Star teams went to Winnipeg in the Spring in the late 70s. People like Ken Yackel, Murray Williamson, Tom Saterdalen, and Mr. Osiecki (Tom?) rank camps in the late 70s.

Some kids moved from to the Twin Cities from California in 1983, and - to the surprise of many - they were better than nearly all the Minnesotans. While it was customary for a Minnesota kid to go to a week of hockey school in the summer, these kids would stay for six or seven.


The American Development Model advocates less hockey and participation in other sports at young ages, but as you move up the ladder it becomes an insane amount of hockey when compared to the old "high school hockey as a Winter Varsity sport" model in Minnesota.

My Squirt team played 48 games, all indoors, in the 70s. At the time HS hockey was making a move from 12 minute periods to 15 and the game cap was just 20 before Sectionals. NHL scouts would watch Minnesota players and they were just more comfortable with Canadians that had been living away from home since age 14 and were playing 70 games, usually with 20 minute stop time periods.

Why are more Minnesotans getting drafted? Because kids are playing more. It is now the accepted standard that strong Minnesota youth and teens are going to play oodles of hockey. These folks would have been looked at like they had two heads when the norm was to take the summer off or skate once a week in a league or go to hockey school for a week.

AAA summer hockey can't get all the credit. Virtually all of it is AA or even single A in level. There are a few clubs that stack up to the "three lines of all-stars" standard.

thats my point ... the explosion of summer hockey whether you call it AAA, AA, A or watered down, whatever has made it available to the masses. And it will be interesting to see if/how more late bloomers, hidden gems etc will translate to HS, college and NHL

Everything OTC wrote seems to contradict.

I think OTC is talking about association hockey not summer hockey.

[Quasar]

So does anyone know where the kids from the big three (blades/machine/icemen) play in the winter season? Do most just play minn. association hockey or do most play AAA? If someone could break it down in % that would be great. Lets take the pee wee levels to start. I see some machine names on southern AAA teams for the fall season, are these kids from minn. or are they from florida?

Edina A, Edina B1, and the fire

[silentbutdeadly3139]

So does anyone know where the kids from the big three (blades/machine/icemen) play in the winter season? Do most just play minn. association hockey or do most play AAA? If someone could break it down in % that would be great. Lets take the pee wee levels to start. I see some machine names on southern AAA teams for the fall season, are these kids from minn. or are they from florida?

Edina A, Edina B1, and the fire

Depends on the level and I think its across section but yes Edina and fire are probably represented a little more than the rest of the associations.

[Quasar]

Depends on the level and I think its across section but yes Edina and fire are probably represented a little more than the rest of the associations.

[/quote]

I only know about the 97 level .. Elk River is also represented. The highest level invite AAA summer teams are made up of top A players from around the state. As you move down the ladder, B1 and B2 and an occasional C from the large associations. Most, if not all, summer hockey parents know how it works, and were they fit in. It is not what some posters on this forum would have you believe. That's the reason it doubles in size every couple of years. The quality of the hockey played by the top teams is every bit as good as association A because that's were most of the kids come from!!

[silentbutdeadly3139]

Depends on the level and I think its across section but yes Edina and fire are probably represented a little more than the rest of the associations.

I only know about the 97 level .. Elk River is also represented. The highest level invite AAA summer teams are made up of top A players from around the state. As you move down the ladder, B1 and B2 and an occasional C from the large associations. Most, if not all, summer hockey parents know how it works, and were they fit in. It is not what some posters on this forum would have you believe. That's the reason it doubles in size every couple of years. The quality of the hockey played by the top teams is every bit as good as association A because that's were most of the kids come from!![/quote]

Pretty sure its better than association hockey, at least it should be as they can get the better A players from many associations

[StillAnEagle]

I think it is funny that some view summer hockey as a recent phenomenon. The shift that occurred says more about parenting styles than anything else.

Spring and summer leagues existed in the Twin Cities in the late 70s. All-Star teams went to Winnipeg in the Spring in the late 70s. People like Ken Yackel, Murray Williamson, Tom Saterdalen, and Mr. Osiecki (Tom?) rank camps in the late 70s.

Some kids moved from to the Twin Cities from California in 1983, and - to the surprise of many - they were better than nearly all the Minnesotans. While it was customary for a Minnesota kid to go to a week of hockey school in the summer, these kids would stay for six or seven.


The American Development Model advocates less hockey and participation in other sports at young ages, but as you move up the ladder it becomes an insane amount of hockey when compared to the old "high school hockey as a Winter Varsity sport" model in Minnesota.

My Squirt team played 48 games, all indoors, in the 70s. At the time HS hockey was making a move from 12 minute periods to 15 and the game cap was just 20 before Sectionals. NHL scouts would watch Minnesota players and they were just more comfortable with Canadians that had been living away from home since age 14 and were playing 70 games, usually with 20 minute stop time periods.

Why are more Minnesotans getting drafted? Because kids are playing more. It is now the accepted standard that strong Minnesota youth and teens are going to play oodles of hockey. These folks would have been looked at like they had two heads when the norm was to take the summer off or skate once a week in a league or go to hockey school for a week.

AAA summer hockey can't get all the credit. Virtually all of it is AA or even single A in level. There are a few clubs that stack up to the "three lines of all-stars" standard.

thats my point ... the explosion of summer hockey whether you call it AAA, AA, A or watered down, whatever has made it available to the masses. And it will be interesting to see if/how more late bloomers, hidden gems etc will translate to HS, college and NHL

Everything OTC wrote seems to contradict.

Thinking we need a seperate thread named virtual boxing for Bo and O....

[StillAnEagle]

thats my point ... the explosion of summer hockey whether you call it AAA, AA, A or watered down, whatever has made it available to the masses. And it will be interesting to see if/how more late bloomers, hidden gems etc will translate to HS, college and NHL

Everything OTC wrote seems to contradict.

Thinking we need a seperate thread named virtual boxing for Bo and O....

"pressing Like button now"

[StillAnEagle]

"are MN kids improving?" Take a look at a HS hockey video from the early 80's and compare it to last years kids. The kids from today would destroy the kids from the 80's. Heck maybe even the North Stars back then too...