Suburban East Conference

[grlzhockeyrocks]

I was witness to a battle between Hastings and Stillwater tonight. I have to say that after watching an undisciplined and chippy WBL team take it on the chin from the Raiders last week it was nice to see a classy Stillwater team come to town. Clean, well coached and classy. Even though the home team lost 4-2 my hat is off to the Ponies, a force to be reckoned with. This confernce always seems to have at least 4-5 teams in the top 20. But other than Stillwater and Roseville and on occassion, WBL there is rarely mention of the others. I think this year there will be more parody than there has been in the past decade. Watch for Mounds View, Woodbury and Hastings if they are on your schedule.

[hockeywild7]

Conference should be very tight this year. Besides Hastings, Stillwater, Roseville and Mounds View I would watch out for Cretin as they have a couple very talented forwards. You could possibly see 2 or 3 teams from this conference in the state tournament.

[hockeyheaven]

I was witness to a battle between Hastings and Stillwater tonight. I have to say that after watching an undisciplined and chippy WBL team take it on the chin from the Raiders last week it was nice to see a classy Stillwater team come to town. Clean, well coached and classy. Even though the home team lost 4-2 my hat is off to the Ponies, a force to be reckoned with. This confernce always seems to have at least 4-5 teams in the top 20. But other than Stillwater and Roseville and on occassion, WBL there is rarely mention of the others. I think this year there will be more parody than there has been in the past decade. Watch for Mounds View, Woodbury and Hastings if they are on your schedule.

Really…the WBL team was chippy...undisciplined? You Hasting fans… every year it’s the same thing. You get every conceivable advantage with that kangaroo court you have in place (don’t get me wrong I believe home ice advantage is part of the game)… However how do you have the gall to complain about WBL. Eye of the beholder I guess…I saw the game just a little different…but why quibble… let’s look at the score card shall we…
WBL 8 penalties 19 min. (1) cross check (1) boarding (6) hook/hold/inference/tripping
Hastings 10 penalties 20 min (3) roughing (2) slashing (1) cross check (4) hook/hold/inference/tripping.
…and on the boarding call…please two girls going after the puck, collide and one goes down into the boards (5 minute major?) please far from boarding…. unlike 3 minutes later the Hastings girl lowered the shoulder and drove the WBL girl into the boards (2 minutes roughing…please) Hastings was far the aggressive team as you can plainly see. Just be happy with the win.

[grlzhockeyrocks]

Hockeyheaven you must be the parent of the one who crosschecked our player in the back and into the boards. Isn't she the one who got kicked out last year... several times. I see you don't list her in the program, not sure why. The Hastings player went face first into the boards and never returned, I am surprised she got up. The penalties may have been even other than that incident but most of Hastings penalties were of the reaching for the puck and hit the skates tripping calls or the bs lift your stick call for a hooking. How many penalties did your team have the last five minutes of the game when they knew it was over? Regardless, you can rest assured that I won't be the only one this year to complain of WBL's tactics and praise a team like the Stillwaters, Rosevilles and Mounds Views of this conference who's parents and team show twice the class of WBL.

[jumpstart]

I was witness to a battle between Hastings and Stillwater tonight. I have to say that after watching an undisciplined and chippy WBL team take it on the chin from the Raiders last week it was nice to see a classy Stillwater team come to town. Clean, well coached and classy. Even though the home team lost 4-2 my hat is off to the Ponies, a force to be reckoned with. This confernce always seems to have at least 4-5 teams in the top 20. But other than Stillwater and Roseville and on occassion, WBL there is rarely mention of the others. I think this year there will be more parody than there has been in the past decade. Watch for Mounds View, Woodbury and Hastings if they are on your schedule.

Really…the WBL team was chippy...undisciplined? You Hasting fans… every year it’s the same thing. You get every conceivable advantage with that kangaroo court you have in place (don’t get me wrong I believe home ice advantage is part of the game)… However how do you have the gall to complain about WBL. Eye of the beholder I guess…I saw the game just a little different…but why quibble… let’s look at the score card shall we…
WBL 8 penalties 19 min. (1) cross check (1) boarding (6) hook/hold/inference/tripping
Hastings 10 penalties 20 min (3) roughing (2) slashing (1) cross check (4) hook/hold/inference/tripping.
…and on the boarding call…please two girls going after the puck, collide and one goes down into the boards (5 minute major?) please far from boarding…. unlike 3 minutes later the Hastings girl lowered the shoulder and drove the WBL girl into the boards (2 minutes roughing…please) Hastings was far the aggressive team as you can plainly see. Just be happy with the win.

I have to agree with Hockeyheaven on this one. The refereeing between Hastings and WBL at Hastings the past few years has been horrendous. After nearly every whistle in the game last week, I watched a Hastings girl push or punch a WBL player. The 5-minute major on the WBL player may have been a questionable call, but it went into the books as a 5-minute major. In all fairness, Hastings #24 took 5 penalties (2 hooks, 1 slash, 1 roughing and 1 cross-check) and was ejected from the game.

You call the WBL team undisciplined and chippy. I disagree. In looking at the other four games WBL has played this year, WBL took 4 penalties against Irondale, 1 against Grand Rapids, 2 against Hibbing and 2 against East Ridge. I don't really see that as being undisciplined or chippy.

On a lighter note, I believe there will be more "parity" in the SEC and in Section 4 this year, but I hope we don't see more "parody" [definition: a literary or musical work imitating the characterstic style of some other work ... in a satirical or humorous way, usually by applying it to an inappropriate subject]. Many of the teams lost scoring talent from last year, and I think any of these teams can beat each other on any given night. Should be some fun hockey to watch over the season.

[hockeyheaven]

Hockeyheaven you must be the parent of the one who crosschecked our player in the back and into the boards. Isn't she the one who got kicked out last year... several times. I see you don't list her in the program, not sure why. The Hastings player went face first into the boards and never returned, I am surprised she got up. The penalties may have been even other than that incident but most of Hastings penalties were of the reaching for the puck and hit the skates tripping calls or the bs lift your stick call for a hooking. How many penalties did your team have the last five minutes of the game when they knew it was over? Regardless, you can rest assured that I won't be the only one this year to complain of WBL's tactics and praise a team like the Stillwaters, Rosevilles and Mounds Views of this conference who's parents and team show twice the class of WBL.

Delusional much…did you not read the breakdown of penalties… roughing, slashing, cross checking. Hardly the “of the reaching for the puck and hit the skates tripping calls or the bs lift your stick call for a hooking”…your way off base…I will admit WBL did show frustration after the officials let a very competitive game get out of control because of one sided calls (6 in the first 8 minutes of the 3rd that pretty much sealed the deal)…but to classify them as having no class is absurd and unjustified. They had more penalties called on them in this game then the other 4 games they played this year combined…so please keep you unfounded bias to yourself.

[grlzhockeyrocks]

Couple of things, unless you are the official scorer where did you get your stats on the penalties? Post a reliable source then and I will shut up. Jumpstart, no one from Hastings was ejected, simply untrue. Most of the pushing and shoving was in retaliation to the WBL girls after they did it. Finally, Hockeyheaven, you say that "I will admit WBL did show frustration after the officials let a very competitive game get out of control because of one sided calls (6 in the first 8 minutes of the 3rd that pretty much sealed the deal)…" Typical WBL parent to blame their team's "frustration" on the refs. In one of your previous posts you pointed out the penalty count as Hastings having more, how is that being one sided?? I recall at least 2 more penalties within the last 5 minutes of the game, one by number 16 when she crossed checked a girl at the face off not even looking for the puck drop. Delusional? Look in the mirror.

[hockeywild7]

I am not sure about the rule but I thought 5 penalties in a game was an automatic disqualification from game and following game.

[observer]

Coaching. Take a penalty sit your next two shifts. What we've learned the last few years, as the game evolves to become a puck possession game, is that you cannot beat a stronger opponent shorthanded. What does that mean? Zero penalties is the goal. Get one and sit. Sounds like both teams have some issues. Good coaches fix it fast.

[grlzhockeyrocks]

[quote="hockeywild7"]I am not sure about the rule but I thought 5 penalties in a game was an automatic disqualification from game and following game.[/quote]

It is... she had 4, very unlike her, these were her first penalties for her since the season opened.

[hockeywild7]

According the the score sheet turned in to hockey hub she had 5 penalties for 10 minutes. 1 penalty in 1st for holding, 3 penalties in the 2nd-(cross checking, slashing and roughing) and 1 penalty in the 3rd for holding.

[hockeyheaven]

Couple of things, unless you are the official scorer where did you get your stats on the penalties? Post a reliable source then and I will shut up. Jumpstart, no one from Hastings was ejected, simply untrue. Most of the pushing and shoving was in retaliation to the WBL girls after they did it. Finally, Hockeyheaven, you say that "I will admit WBL did show frustration after the officials let a very competitive game get out of control because of one sided calls (6 in the first 8 minutes of the 3rd that pretty much sealed the deal)…" Typical WBL parent to blame their team's "frustration" on the refs. In one of your previous posts you pointed out the penalty count as Hastings having more, how is that being one sided?? I recall at least 2 more penalties within the last 5 minutes of the game, one by number 16 when she crossed checked a girl at the face off not even looking for the puck drop. Delusional? Look in the mirror.

Wow what a complete stooge. You take a cheap shot without any real justification then your own narrow-minded perspective then refuse to back off when real evidence is shown to you. I got my information from the Hub who gets their info from the home team statistician. So why don’t you confirm it with that person before spouting off… but I doubt that you would ever let the facts get in the way of your bias account

[jumpstart]

According the the score sheet turned in to hockey hub she had 5 penalties for 10 minutes. 1 penalty in 1st for holding, 3 penalties in the 2nd-(cross checking, slashing and roughing) and 1 penalty in the 3rd for holding.

Hockey Hub is where I got my stats -- I consider that source fairly reliable. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this game. It seems that these two teams bring out the worst in each other. Hopefully when they meet later in the season it will be a more "civilized" game.

[Bullgod]

WBL took 4 penalties against Irondale, 1 against Grand Rapids, 2 against Hibbing and 2 against East Ridge.

I notice WBL took the least penalties in the games that were 1 sided wins.

Gracious in victory, poor sports in defeats?

[Hansonbrother]

Coaching. Take a penalty sit your next two shifts. What we've learned the last few years, as the game evolves to become a puck possession game, is that you cannot beat a stronger opponent shorthanded. What does that mean? Zero penalties is the goal. Get one and sit. Sounds like both teams have some issues. Good coaches fix it fast.

let me get this straight, if this is in fact, your way to solve this problem...You make a girl sit two shifts for taking a penalty?

wouldn't you worry about this having an adverse affect on your players playing aggressive? The game of hockey is about winning battles. How do you justify to your player for sitting them on a call that you don't agree with then?

[neutralregroup]

Coaching. Take a penalty sit your next two shifts. What we've learned the last few years, as the game evolves to become a puck possession game, is that you cannot beat a stronger opponent shorthanded. What does that mean? Zero penalties is the goal. Get one and sit. Sounds like both teams have some issues. Good coaches fix it fast.

"Good Coaches" know the difference between a good penalty and a bad penalty. Yes, it's true, there is such a thing as a"good penalty"!

[hockeywild7]

Not sure I can classify penalties as either "good" or "bad" that easily. There are not just good and bad penalties. Would you qualify an accidental tripping while battling another player in the corner a bad penalty? or a good penalty? and if you say it is bad would you sit her for 2 shifts for that? Unfortunately it is never that easy and to have that policy would be a bad idea in my opinion for any coach. A blatant penalty with intent to injure another player is something that warrants benching.

[observer]

This will be remedial for some.

The goal is to win a game against a strong opponent. We know that is difficult to do with fewer players on the ice so the goal is zero penalties. Penalties fall into 3 categories.

Accidental. Trying to poke puck and accidentally trip a player. Working hard on the backcheck and opponent falls down. Can be excusable but also can be avoided.

Dumb. Punch someone. Trip a player on purpose. Retaliate. You know the rest.

And the third category is "not worth the risk." This is where several fall. The problem here can be different refs call things differently so "not worth the risk." Backchecking hard tapping the player with your stick. Some refs don't call anything and others will quickly call a slash. Not worth the risk. Taking an extra swipe at the goalie. I've seen teams take a whack all game long and nothing is called and I've also seen refs make a call for a single tap. What is a player to do? Don't do it. Not worth the risk.

I've watched a lot of hockey and some players get more penalties than others. Some players get none, ever. Why? Some players have learned that playing the game is more fun than sitting in the box and not contributing to your team's effort. Yes accidental penalties happen but they can be avoided. Dumb penalties are just that. Not worth the risk penalties are the largest category and you can call them dumb if you like. You're not the ref and he can call anything he wants anytime he wants so what is a player to do? Play the game the way it's meant to be played, stay out of the box, let the other team make the mistakes and your team takes advantage. Games can swing on penalties and often do.

I guarantee you that the players can learn. And again, you can't beat a stronger opponent shorthanded. So, zero penalties has to be the goal. Accidental, dumb, not worth the risk all hurt your team the same so don't get any. Get one and sit and the player will learn to distinguish between the three categories and avoid all three. Instead of fussing about the ref, who you don't control, focus on things you do control. Your player’s behavior is something coaches can control. Fewer penalties increase percentage chance of a victory. No excuses, all penalties treated the same. Or, maybe, accidental sits a shift. Not worth the risk 2 shifts and dumb sits the rest of the period. The players will change their behavior quickly if there are consequences but not if there are not. Watch penalties and determine which category they fall into and you’ll be surprised how many could have been avoided. Here’s what I see a lot. 8 penalties. 2 accidental, 3 dumb and 3 not worth the risk and a loss. Let the other team be stupid and behave poorly, blaze a trail to the box, and pound them

I’ll add. Player behavior reflects their coaches. Coaches that yell and scream at the players and refs are setting an extremely poor example. Players will think it’s ok and it’s not. Coaches wave their arms and players wave their arms. Don’t say anything to the ref because it’s not going to help. They’re invisible. Focus on what you do control which is your players behavior.

[royals dad]

Observer - You fail to factor in at least few things, for one a player who plays an aggressive style might draw a checking penalty lets say every other game, if her team is not really skilled on the PK lets say they give up 20% that would be about 10 penalties a year and about 2 goals, however her aggressive play may directly prevent the opposition from scoring 10 and might result in her team scoring 10 over the course of a season. That would be a net gain of 18 goals over telling her to not make any body contact so she can avoid those 10 penalties.

Don't get me wrong, I know that there are cheap, unjustified, even stupid plays. There are also players who play the game in a way that puts their team at a disadvantage, these are things coaches deal with everyday. I think I have much less hair now because of kids reaching with their stick rather than moving their feet. I have taken many sticks away for whole practices (try going an hour of drills with no stick) after these types of penalties, called and uncalled. In my opinion there is no black and white answer and your cure would do more harm than good to most hockey teams. Just the sheer speed of the game means that often the players react rather than rationalize in games. To expect zero penalties or to say you will sit anyone with a certain type of penalty X amount of shifts is maybe a good theory but in real terms unrealistic and impracticable.

[observer]

Sorry, no punishment and the behavior will not change. The players always come back to the bench with an excuse. Sorry, there aren't any. This topic touched on constant poor behavior by some teams and their players. I suggested it's coaching.

Men are different but the Wild had two players with penalties last night. Two in 60 minutes of hockey. Why? They're having a hard time winning and getting penalties has been a problem.

I'll stick to my guns. Zero penalties is the goal.

[hockeywild7]

I think Royals Dad put it better than I did and I agree 100%. Not a practical solution to eliminating penalties in my opinion, just reduce aggressive play in some players. Glad my daughter has never had to play for a coach who would do that as I think kids who aren't willing to make mistakes aren't working hard enough and will never learn. Can't recall ever seeing the Wild or any other pro team do this either.

[MNHockeyFan]

You also need to consider the situation and timing when a player draws a penalty. For instance, if your team is up by one with 3 minutes to go in the third period, it would be "dumb" for one of your players to forecheck hard in the offensive zone, using her shoulder or an elbow to knock the other team's player off the puck. Same applies if your team is already a player short - you don't want to do anything "dumb" that would put your team down two players. When deciding who to play in these situations, the coach needs to think about which players can be relied upon to NOT commit avoidable penalties that come at the worst possible time.

Also, I don't know how many times I've seen a team that's pretty comfortably ahead in the third period, seemingly in control of the play, and you figure about the only way they could possibly lose the game is by taking a series of penalties. Sure enough, that's what happens and before you know it the game is tied or the other team manages to go ahead. In general, when your team is in control and a win is within reach, your players need to remain focused and determined, but also play with extra discipline.

But as a coach you wouldn't be nearly as upset if one of your players did what she had to do (hold, interfere, hook) in order to prevent what would otherwise be an almost sure goal. And you wouldn't get too angry if your player does the same to break up an excellent scoring opportunity when her teammate is caught out of position. And of course not all penalties are created equal, what would be called in one game is let go in the next - the line between "accidental" and "not worth the risk" can and does change from game to game. The coach and players need to adjust their aggressiveness to the way each game is being called. If you don't adjust and the refs remain consistent, then you're probably going to have a problem!

[MinnGirlsHockey]

Hockey Hub is where I got my stats -- I consider that source fairly reliable.

I didn't see the WBL/Hastings game, so don't have an opinion on what happened.

But while I would say that the Girls Hockey Hub is probably the best source of information available in general, I'm starting to question it's reliability. It shows that Lakeville North has 2 games tonight, not sure how that happened....

[observer]

OK, I'll admit there are some grey areas. But start with the rules and evolve from there. Each game is different and when trying to beat a superior opponent you want all your players on the ice.

Let’s talk real world for a second because I understand what Royals Dad is saying and you do want the players to be aggressive.

But, one player is a constant grinder, working hard all over the ice winning battles and creating opportunities for her team mates and gets an occasional accidental penalty. Another player uses her aggression and emotion differently and gets almost no accidental penalties but a number of dumb and not worth the risk ones. We're talking about the second player here. One that causes problems for her team mates and the team because her lack of discipline. That needs to be fixed and fixed fast. Coaches can't wait until January when bad habits are already formed. Coaches are responsible for the team’s style of play so they can't just watch and do nothing. You're the coach, take control. Lay down the law now and watch the change. You get a penalty you sit.

[grlzhockeyrocks]

I agree, as I have been lectured to in previous posts that they rely upon the "home official scorer", problem is they often are given misinformation. The scoring stats come from the ref, I can't tell you how many times I have seen a player get credit for an assist or even a goal who wasn't near the play or was actually on the bench. Also, if two girls have the same last name (sisters, cousins ect.) they often get incorrectly credited with a point or penalty. Jumpstart, this was the case of the girl from Hastings, there are sisters and cousins on the team with the same last name, a penalty was incorrectly credited to the wrong person in the stats but in reality the correct girl went to the box and it never resulted in an ejection.