How Affluence Affects Hockey Success

[goldy313]

Note: This thread has been split off from the "Warroad Coach Resigns" thread, since we got a bit off topic. -Karl

Recruiting lots of 5 and 6 year olds, both boys and girls, is the only way to grow your association. 12 year olds don't fall from trees and even if you could find a few late starters it's very difficult for them to catch up to the ones that started when they were 5.

I get what your saying and to a point agree but in talking with a couple of good friends who are on the local wrestling board, hockey is the biggest recruiter they have right now. When people get flyers sent home with their kids and see that playing Squirt B hockey is going to cost $450 + $40 to USA Hockey before equipment, team fees, and travel (gas and lodging) you're going to see more kids never start hockey because it's unaffordable by the fourth grade for far too many people. Wrestling costs $25 K-8 plus a pair of shoes. Until hockey people figure out a way to hold costs down for at least some of the kids and have a path for simple rec leagues like baseball does they're in trouble.

[mulefarm]

Recruiting lots of 5 and 6 year olds, both boys and girls, is the only way to grow your association. 12 year olds don't fall from trees and even if you could find a few late starters it's very difficult for them to catch up to the ones that started when they were 5.

I get what your saying and to a point agree but in talking with a couple of good friends who are on the local wrestling board, hockey is the biggest recruiter they have right now. When people get flyers sent home with their kids and see that playing Squirt B hockey is going to cost $450 + $40 to USA Hockey before equipment, team fees, and travel (gas and lodging) you're going to see more kids never start hockey because it's unaffordable by the fourth grade for far too many people. Wrestling costs $25 K-8 plus a pair of shoes. Until hockey people figure out a way to hold costs down for at least some of the kids and have a path for simple rec leagues like baseball does they're in trouble.

I agree with the costs. My question has been to school and city officals as why don' they charge a rental fee for their facilities that will make money or at least cover the costs? Most youth athletics use city or school district facilities for nothing, but youth hockey has to pay hourly rates. Why?

[The Other Bash Brother]

Recruiting lots of 5 and 6 year olds, both boys and girls, is the only way to grow your association. 12 year olds don't fall from trees and even if you could find a few late starters it's very difficult for them to catch up to the ones that started when they were 5.

I get what your saying and to a point agree but in talking with a couple of good friends who are on the local wrestling board, hockey is the biggest recruiter they have right now. When people get flyers sent home with their kids and see that playing Squirt B hockey is going to cost $450 + $40 to USA Hockey before equipment, team fees, and travel (gas and lodging) you're going to see more kids never start hockey because it's unaffordable by the fourth grade for far too many people. Wrestling costs $25 K-8 plus a pair of shoes. Until hockey people figure out a way to hold costs down for at least some of the kids and have a path for simple rec leagues like baseball does they're in trouble.

I agree with the costs. My question has been to school and city officals as why don' they charge a rental fee for their facilities that will make money or at least cover the costs? Most youth athletics use city or school district facilities for nothing, but youth hockey has to pay hourly rates. Why?

Hockey up north is significantly cheaper in many places.

[defense]

Yes, hockey up north may be cheaper in some places. Warning: Higher rates ARE making their way north.
Looks like I will be giving up at least $310 next year for a squirt. Above that, 18 hours in the concession stand(optional $10 per hour buyout). I don't know what concession worker makes $10 per hour..... AND the regular fundraiser...selling pizzas, or last year...calendars..or you could buy that out too.
We do not live anywhere near the Twin Cities....though it is considered slightly up north if you live in the cities....
oh yeah, if the younger one plays next year, $50 to play for the first year, and 18 more hours in the concessions.....plus that many more calendars or pizzas.....
The price of hockey is ridiculous. I just look back and remember what my parents did for me and realize I have to do it. It is worth it to the kid who is growing up.

[PWD10]

Recruiting lots of 5 and 6 year olds, both boys and girls, is the only way to grow your association. 12 year olds don't fall from trees and even if you could find a few late starters it's very difficult for them to catch up to the ones that started when they were 5.

I get what your saying and to a point agree but in talking with a couple of good friends who are on the local wrestling board, hockey is the biggest recruiter they have right now. When people get flyers sent home with their kids and see that playing Squirt B hockey is going to cost $450 + $40 to USA Hockey before equipment, team fees, and travel (gas and lodging) you're going to see more kids never start hockey because it's unaffordable by the fourth grade for far too many people. Wrestling costs $25 K-8 plus a pair of shoes. Until hockey people figure out a way to hold costs down for at least some of the kids and have a path for simple rec leagues like baseball does they're in trouble.

I have friends who played on the east coast and that price isn't even the first third of the first of three payments for a squirt b program. I know frequently the programs start at 2K and some of them are as much as 4-5K, Not including jerseys and socks and all that jazz which is anther $500 , plus a weekend in Canam which will leave you another 1k short, and then all the travel, tolls and all that jazz. Never ever seem to have a shortage of players though.

[HShockeywatcher]

Recruiting lots of 5 and 6 year olds, both boys and girls, is the only way to grow your association. 12 year olds don't fall from trees and even if you could find a few late starters it's very difficult for them to catch up to the ones that started when they were 5.

I get what your saying and to a point agree but in talking with a couple of good friends who are on the local wrestling board, hockey is the biggest recruiter they have right now. When people get flyers sent home with their kids and see that playing Squirt B hockey is going to cost $450 + $40 to USA Hockey before equipment, team fees, and travel (gas and lodging) you're going to see more kids never start hockey because it's unaffordable by the fourth grade for far too many people. Wrestling costs $25 K-8 plus a pair of shoes. Until hockey people figure out a way to hold costs down for at least some of the kids and have a path for simple rec leagues like baseball does they're in trouble.

I have friends who played on the east coast and that price isn't even the first third of the first of three payments for a squirt b program. I know frequently the programs start at 2K and some of them are as much as 4-5K, Not including jerseys and socks and all that jazz which is anther $500 , plus a weekend in Canam which will leave you another 1k short, and then all the travel, tolls and all that jazz. Never ever seem to have a shortage of players though.

Gee, hockey costs money? Ya don't say.

Every state champ in the last 20 years has been from an affluent area, a private school or a small town with a history of hockey.

[BBB]

Every state champ in the last 20 years has been from an affluent area, a private school or a small town with a history of hockey.

Apparently you were not in town in the from 2000-04 when Elk River, Blaine, Anoka, and Centennial won state titles. Anoka is the only one of those who had been to state before the 90's and Centennial didn't make it til the year they won so none of them had the history. Affluent? hardly. Private? nope.
It seems like success moves around the state. Roseau and Grand Rapids along with Moorhead were better 3-4 years ago and lately its been the southwest burbs. The northern suburbs dominated the first half of the 2000's and the privates like East, Hill Murray, and Holy Angels will always win one every 5 or 6 years. I think Section 1 is the next hot bed for state championships

[karl(east)]

Every state champ in the last 20 years has been from an affluent area, a private school or a small town with a history of hockey.

Apparently you were not in town in the from 2000-04 when Elk River, Blaine, Anoka, and Centennial won state titles. Anoka is the only one of those who had been to state before the 90's and Centennial didn't make it til the year they won so none of them had the history. Affluent? hardly. Private? nope.
It seems like success moves around the state. Roseau and Grand Rapids along with Moorhead were better 3-4 years ago and lately its been the southwest burbs. The northern suburbs dominated the first half of the 2000's and the privates like East, Hill Murray, and Holy Angels will always win one every 5 or 6 years. I think Section 1 is the next hot bed for state championships

East is a private school now?
East is tough to categorize, I'd say...sure it's an affluent school compared to its area, but it's not Edina. It will never have the numbers of the giant Metro programs, either.

I tend to agree with your point, though...if we consider some of those NWSC suburbs "affluent" as HSHW seems to, how many schools don't qualify as either affluent, private, or rich in tradition?

If you want to know who'll be good in the future, look at program size first, and take those tradition-rich smaller cities and assume they'll get a talent bubble every now and then--they move in cycles. Private schools are somewhat dependent on what the publics around them do, but will do well in areas where there aren't enough spots on the public varsity teams for all the good players (SW Metro). Hill is the exception; they're always good.

[goldy313]

I believe Blaine was the only one with a Free/Reduced lunch rate of over 20%, (Roseau is the only other candidate) which is still below average for Minnesota but way above the usual suspects of Edina, Eden Prairie, Hill-Murray, and Holy Angels. On the Runner up side Grand Rapids and Roseville qualify but no one else. From what I remember Austin was near 40% in 2001 which is amazing considering Lakeville, Mayo, Century, and JM were all under 5%. JM is now over 20% which goes to show how things change.

[BBB]

affluent means wealthy...not that you can cover your kids lunch pass. If you want to consider paying for your kids lunch as being wealthy then like Karl said, almost all the schools will qualify.

[observer]

The lunch discussion is silly. Even if a school had 50% of their students on a free/reduced lunch program I'll guess they're not members of the hockey team.

[ogelthorpe]

The lunch discussion is silly. Even if a school had 50% of their students on a free/reduced lunch program I'll guess they're not members of the hockey team.

That's the point. If you make the link that hockey is expensive to play, therefore, wealthy areas have more hockey players, then a school with a 50% free lunch rate would have fewer hockey players then a school the same size with a 5% free lunch rate.

[The X]

Every state champ in the last 20 years has been from an affluent area, a private school or a small town with a history of hockey.

Apparently you were not in town in the from 2000-04 when Elk River, Blaine, Anoka, and Centennial won state titles. Anoka is the only one of those who had been to state before the 90's and Centennial didn't make it til the year they won so none of them had the history. Affluent? hardly. Private? nope.
It seems like success moves around the state. Roseau and Grand Rapids along with Moorhead were better 3-4 years ago and lately its been the southwest burbs. The northern suburbs dominated the first half of the 2000's and the privates like East, Hill Murray, and Holy Angels will always win one every 5 or 6 years. I think Section 1 is the next hot bed for state championships

So ER, Blaine, Centennial and Anoka are not affluent areas compared to lots of other AA schools? In case you were not around from 2000-04 these areas are very affluent and have the numbers to support this. Not to mention Blaine has how many rinks in town for all four of those schools to access, (re) Schwanns Super rink. Centennial, not a team made up of affluent familys? I agree with HSHW with his assessment of the affluent familys/areas will almost always win in hockey with the exception of the tradition rich hockey areas.

[mulefarm]

Every state champ in the last 20 years has been from an affluent area, a private school or a small town with a history of hockey.

Apparently you were not in town in the from 2000-04 when Elk River, Blaine, Anoka, and Centennial won state titles. Anoka is the only one of those who had been to state before the 90's and Centennial didn't make it til the year they won so none of them had the history. Affluent? hardly. Private? nope.
It seems like success moves around the state. Roseau and Grand Rapids along with Moorhead were better 3-4 years ago and lately its been the southwest burbs. The northern suburbs dominated the first half of the 2000's and the privates like East, Hill Murray, and Holy Angels will always win one every 5 or 6 years. I think Section 1 is the next hot bed for state championships

So ER, Blaine, Centennial and Anoka are not affluent areas compared to lots of other AA schools? In case you were not around from 2000-04 these areas are very affluent and have the numbers to support this. Not to mention Blaine has how many rinks in town for all four of those schools to access, (re) Schwanns Super rink. Centennial, not a team made up of affluent familys? I agree with HSHW with his assessment of the affluent familys/areas will almost always win in hockey with the exception of the tradition rich hockey areas.

If you think the NW suburbs are affluent you are completly nuts. Get in your car and drive around those communties, then go to the west and south and take a look and report back.

[BodyShots]

Apparently you were not in town in the from 2000-04 when Elk River, Blaine, Anoka, and Centennial won state titles. Anoka is the only one of those who had been to state before the 90's and Centennial didn't make it til the year they won so none of them had the history. Affluent? hardly. Private? nope.
It seems like success moves around the state. Roseau and Grand Rapids along with Moorhead were better 3-4 years ago and lately its been the southwest burbs. The northern suburbs dominated the first half of the 2000's and the privates like East, Hill Murray, and Holy Angels will always win one every 5 or 6 years. I think Section 1 is the next hot bed for state championships

So ER, Blaine, Centennial and Anoka are not affluent areas compared to lots of other AA schools? In case you were not around from 2000-04 these areas are very affluent and have the numbers to support this. Not to mention Blaine has how many rinks in town for all four of those schools to access, (re) Schwanns Super rink. Centennial, not a team made up of affluent familys? I agree with HSHW with his assessment of the affluent familys/areas will almost always win in hockey with the exception of the tradition rich hockey areas.

If you think the NW suburbs are affluent you are completly nuts. Get in your car and drive around those communties, then go to the west and south and take a look and report back.

I could drive you around a couple of neighborhoods in WBL and you would think we are the slums. Then I could drive you around some others and you would think we are filthy rich. Most all suburbs have this dynamic. It's just that some have larger areas of the affluent than others.

Hockey is an expensive sport, and the more money you have, the more opportunites you can give your children to succeed.

[The X]

Apparently you were not in town in the from 2000-04 when Elk River, Blaine, Anoka, and Centennial won state titles. Anoka is the only one of those who had been to state before the 90's and Centennial didn't make it til the year they won so none of them had the history. Affluent? hardly. Private? nope.
It seems like success moves around the state. Roseau and Grand Rapids along with Moorhead were better 3-4 years ago and lately its been the southwest burbs. The northern suburbs dominated the first half of the 2000's and the privates like East, Hill Murray, and Holy Angels will always win one every 5 or 6 years. I think Section 1 is the next hot bed for state championships

So ER, Blaine, Centennial and Anoka are not affluent areas compared to lots of other AA schools? In case you were not around from 2000-04 these areas are very affluent and have the numbers to support this. Not to mention Blaine has how many rinks in town for all four of those schools to access, (re) Schwanns Super rink. Centennial, not a team made up of affluent familys? I agree with HSHW with his assessment of the affluent familys/areas will almost always win in hockey with the exception of the tradition rich hockey areas.

If you think the NW suburbs are affluent you are completly nuts. Get in your car and drive around those communties, then go to the west and south and take a look and report back.

I have been to all northern suburbs and yes there are plenty of affluent neighborhoods in each of those areas. Forest Lake would fit that same mold and are getting better also because of the amount of familys that can afford hockey. EP, Woodbury and Edina have Walmarts and McDonalds
also, does that mean they are not affluent areas? Just saying, when you have a large area you will have enough people to afford the game.

[defense]

Every state champ in the last 20 years has been from an affluent area, a private school or a small town with a history of hockey.

Apparently you were not in town in the from 2000-04 when Elk River, Blaine, Anoka, and Centennial won state titles. Anoka is the only one of those who had been to state before the 90's and Centennial didn't make it til the year they won so none of them had the history. Affluent? hardly. Private? nope.
It seems like success moves around the state. Roseau and Grand Rapids along with Moorhead were better 3-4 years ago and lately its been the southwest burbs. The northern suburbs dominated the first half of the 2000's and the privates like East, Hill Murray, and Holy Angels will always win one every 5 or 6 years. I think Section 1 is the next hot bed for state championships

Pretty sure no one outside of the NW suburbs agrees with this....and you might even be lying to yourself.

[mulefarm]

Every state champ in the last 20 years has been from an affluent area, a private school or a small town with a history of hockey.

Apparently you were not in town in the from 2000-04 when Elk River, Blaine, Anoka, and Centennial won state titles. Anoka is the only one of those who had been to state before the 90's and Centennial didn't make it til the year they won so none of them had the history. Affluent? hardly. Private? nope.
It seems like success moves around the state. Roseau and Grand Rapids along with Moorhead were better 3-4 years ago and lately its been the southwest burbs. The northern suburbs dominated the first half of the 2000's and the privates like East, Hill Murray, and Holy Angels will always win one every 5 or 6 years. I think Section 1 is the next hot bed for state championships

Pretty sure no one outside of the NW suburbs agrees with this....and you might even be lying to yourself.

I'm outside the NW suburbs and I totally agree with BBB

[defense]

What is "Hermantown of the west" supposed to mean anyway???
Actually I would consider Hermantown to possibly be chasing Warroad....
But I wouldn't be so forward as to say Warroad of the East.......

I think East Grand Forks is East Grand Forks....they don't need to be likened to Hermantown.

The Green Wave are who we thought they were! That's why we took the damn ice. Now if you want to crown them, then crown their axx! But they are who we thought they were! And we let 'em off the hook!

What???
WHo's crowning anyone....and with what????




mulefarm is either fishing, not being honest to himself, or he just plain doesn't know and considers BBB's opinion as gospel.
Elite??? maybe not. Filthy rich???? not likley. Affluent?? yeah I think so. I don't think anyone claimed that these towns were totally cakeater....just mostly...and more of it than most places....

[goldy313]

Here's a list by county, the F/R lunch rate is considered one of the best indicators of poverty.

http://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/by ... N&ind=1772

Anoka County's F/R is below the average in Minnesota. Again, most people won't classify themselves as affluent but the statistics would put those northwest suburbs above most cities and towns of Minnesota. It all depends on perspective, is Blaine affluent compared to Edina? How about West St. Paul?

[MNHockeyFan]

Here's a list of per capita income by municipality:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mi ... ita_income

Interesting that 7 of the top 10 are towns around Lake Minnetonka.

[HShockeywatcher]

I never thought in a million years I'd make one comment and have the majority of responses supporting it

I didn't know the only way to be affluent was to be from Edina. Karl's point is interesting about East. Sure, maybe the average sq footage of the houses is different, but so is the size of the city are you by, the jobs parents have, etc. A doctor/lawyer working in a major city near Edina HS will most likely make more than one near East HS.

Having poor people in your city does not mean the area is not affluent. By that standard few private schools would be and none of the Lake conference would.

As I seem to point out in many places, those who are good at hockey are generally from either a family of wealth or a "hockey family." There are rich places around the state and there are places with many "hockey families." There are also places where hockey isn't good with rich families and a few hockey families, but the teams aren't great.

It isn't all about ability, it's about opportunity. It's the same in other sports too, but you need more material things in hockey to play/practice and it's a more difficult game such that simply being athletic you can't just pick it up.

It's no knock to any school/program/person, simply the way it is. And yes, those areas are affluent, or at least most would put them in that blanket.

[interestedbystander]

This is a no-brainer. One just has to drive through the Super Rink parking lot on any given weekend --- lots of new or nearly new Burbs and Escalades and not too many junkers..................

[defense]

I never thought in a million years I'd make one comment and have the majority of responses supporting it

I didn't know the only way to be affluent was to be from Edina. Karl's point is interesting about East. Sure, maybe the average sq footage of the houses is different, but so is the size of the city are you by, the jobs parents have, etc. A doctor/lawyer working in a major city near Edina HS will most likely make more than one near East HS.

Having poor people in your city does not mean the area is not affluent. By that standard few private schools would be and none of the Lake conference would.

As I seem to point out in many places, those who are good at hockey are generally from either a family of wealth or a "hockey family." There are rich places around the state and there are places with many "hockey families." There are also places where hockey isn't good with rich families and a few hockey families, but the teams aren't great.

It isn't all about ability, it's about opportunity. It's the same in other sports too, but you need more material things in hockey to play/practice and it's a more difficult game such that simply being athletic you can't just pick it up.

It's no knock to any school/program/person, simply the way it is. And yes, those areas are affluent, or at least most would put them in that blanket.

Mostly right there. I wonder how much both the size of the population and the age of the population figures into to it though.
Seems like it would be more likely that a strong sports team would be from a community with many young and energetic people, than say, a community who cannot keep up with retirement housing.
NO question money is big and helps tremendously, but is it needed???

[The X]

This is a no-brainer. One just has to drive through the Super Rink parking lot on any given weekend --- lots of new or nearly new Burbs and Escalades and not too many junkers..................

Exactly, that is an outstanding example IMO.