This past weekend at the MN Made Preview Challenge Cup my child had a great game. Both teams were strong and fun to watch. During the game a player on the other team fell to the ice and laid there until the whistle stopped the play as the other team was heading up the ice, then jumped up like nothing was wrong. Before I go further I want to post the rule on this.
--------- 6. * Down player rule: If at any time a player goes down (injury) and play must be stopped, that player must sit out for the next 10 minutes of play. They may return to play after serving their 10 minutes recovery time. Players will remain on their player’s bench. Score keepers will track the time player may return to play. No exceptions.
---------
Our team coach asked the ref if that player would be out for 10 mins because of the rule. The refs talked and yes they would be out. The other teams coach was very upset and called our coach a cheapster for reminding the refs of the rule. Even after the game that coach cornered our coach and told him he was out of line and the rule did not hold for this player because no EMT came out on the ice. He also said it was not fair for that player and they should be able to play and it was unsportsmanlike to follow that rule. He even tried to sneak that player out on the ice during the 10min recovery time. I guess I do not see the word EMT in the rule, do you?
WHY do some coaches feel the need to tarnish a great game like this. Some parents seen this and did not like what the coach was doing after the game. Our coach said that if he did not like the rule to get it removed for next year, until then a rule is a rule and should be followed.
I love all the coaches that have coached my teams and feel that when a coach loses they should not try find a reason for the lose on someone else. Great games have winners and losers, just the way it is. And rules are rules, follow them or dont play the game.......
So, off to next weekends hockey! The saga continues
Last edited by Blade on Mon May 16, 2011 10:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Blade wrote:Not all coaches are bad, but there are a few out there. This past weekend at the MN Made Preview Challenge Cup my child had a great game. Both teams were stong and fun to watch. During the game a player on the other team fell to the ice and layed there until the whistle stopped the play as the other team was heading up the ice. Here is where the whining started. Before I go further I want to post the rule on this.
--------- 6. * Down player rule: If at any time a player goes down (injury) and play must be stopped, that player must sit out for the next 10 minutes of play. They may return to play after serving their 10 minutes recovery time. Players will remain on their player’s bench. Score keepers will track the time player may return to play. No exceptions.
---------
Our team coach asked the ref if that player would be out for 10 mins because of the rule. The refs talked and yes they would be out. The other teams coach was very upset and called our coach a cheapster for reminding the refs of the rule. Even after the game that coach cornered our coach and told him he was out of line and the rule did not hold for this player because no EMT came out on the ice. He also said it was not fair for that player and they should be able to play and it was unsportsmanlike to follow that rule. He even tryed to sneak that player out on the ice during the 10min recovery time. I guess I do not see the word EMT in the rule, do you?
WHY do some coaches feel the need to tarnish a great game like this. Some parents seen this and did not like what the coach was doing after the game. Our coach said that if he did not like the rule to get it removed for next year, until then a rule is a rule and should be followed.
I love all the coaches that have coached my teams and feel that when a coach loses they should not try find a reason for the lose on someone else. Great games and winners and losers, just the way it is. And rules are rules, follow them or dont play the game.......
So, off to next weekends hockey! The saga continues
I guess I'm not sure about the "spirit" of this rule. What if the kid was just slow in getting up and didn't require the refs to stop play but they did anyway? Did the refs stop active play or was it a normal stoppage of play that happened to coincide with a player being down? Did coaches or EMT's need to go on the ice to assist the kid. 10 minutes of game time (probably 15 minutes+ of real time) seems awefully harsh because a certain play lead to a kid being slow to get up, it's doesn't mean he couldn't be ready to go again a few minutes later. A rule is a rule I get that, but a tourney specific NON-USA hockey rule like this where the opposing coach "reminds' the refs, I don't know that seems a little cheap too. That said it was a rule and that coach should have let it go and not pursued it after the game was over either. Lots of things wrong here IMHO. I get frustrated when the opposing team seems like it has a kid or several kids staying down trying to get whistles or sirupt the flow of play with their supposed "injuries" but I don't think I like this either.....
Totally bush league behavior by your son's team's coach. This is not a League game, or playoff, but in a fun tourney giving some kids an opportunity to extend their season. I've never even heard of such a thing and certainly never seen it enforced. Again, in a tourney of this type, totally unecessary and mean spirited. The coaches behavior is teaching none of the proper lessons. If I was the ref I would have told that coach he's nuts and laughed in his face. The coach should be totally embarrased.
observer wrote:Totally bush league behavior by your son's team's coach. This is not a League game, or playoff, but in a fun tourney giving some kids an opportunity to extend their season. I've never even heard of such a thing and certainly never seen it enforced. Again, in a tourney of this type, totally unecessary and mean spirited. The coaches behavior is teaching none of the proper lessons. If I was the ref I would have told that coach he's nuts and laughed in his face. The coach should be totally embarrased.
This is a rule that I have seen in many different tourneys we have been in, one being the White Bear Lake tourney. This tourney is "running time" games and the rule is to keep the game flowing and stop kids from pretending to be hurt. The player was on the ice for 10 secs as the ref said after the game to their coach and that is why they enforced the rule. The rule is even in BOLD in the rule book and they were reminded about it in their first game so all the coaches would know to keep the game flowing. The refs knew the rule.
Maybe we should do away with all the rules and play with anyone on the ice. Maybe let the mites check from behind because they like to hit kids and never call a trip on an open break. Just because it is all for fun and giving some kids an opportunity to extend their season.
Sorry, I am not like that and like to make sure things stay safe. If a player is really down on an injury the ref should stop the game, but for a player laying there not injured it is a waist of time for the teams. I do not pay $ for my kids to waist time on the ice letting kids fake being injured. That is why this rule was put into play for this running time game tourney. At least that is what we were told at the begining.
observer wrote:Totally bush league behavior by your son's team's coach. This is not a League game, or playoff, but in a fun tourney giving some kids an opportunity to extend their season. I've never even heard of such a thing and certainly never seen it enforced. Again, in a tourney of this type, totally unecessary and mean spirited. The coaches behavior is teaching none of the proper lessons. If I was the ref I would have told that coach he's nuts and laughed in his face. The coach should be totally embarrased.
Bush league behavior? Mean spirited? The rule was there for all to see. It was even printed in bold. I call it taking advantage of a situation. If that kid was one of their little star players, then that makes the reminder to enforce the rule even better don't you think? Did it end up costing them the game? I guess it must have otherwise why complain about it.
That northwest team was loaded. They rolled over everyone.
To me rules are rules, I'm not sure what rules we can pick and choose that we want to follow? People help the linesmen out all the time with too many men on the ice. Maybe one game the coaches could agree to play with no offside??
Maybe a new thread should be started but these questions keep coming up.
Should it be brought to the refs attention that a kid is wearing jewerly or she/he doesn't have a mouth guard, throat guard for goalies? If so when do you bring to their attention?
This rule is in essence a penalty. It is a 10 minute major penalty to the player for being injured. What if the injury was the result of being slashed or tripped or chcecked form behind in which the ref didn't see the infraction. How can anyone believe that it is ok to assess a 10 minute major against a kid for being injured, because again that is exactly what this is. Again I get game flow and fake injuries, I hate that as well but the punishment does not fit the crime here regardless of whether it was in bold or not. There HAS to be a better way of either getting rid of the fake injuries OR building up to that penalty but to assess it right away the first time it happens, no way. Rules may be rules but only because they haven't been challenged in some instances. And don;t use the "maybe we should pick and choose what rules we follow and which ones we don't" stuff because there is NOTHING akin to this in any other sport or any hockey game I have ever been part of. You can slash a guy and try and injure another person and only are out for two minutes but you get injured and YOUR out for ten, yeah that makes sense.....
JSR...my take on it is the question is not about the usefulness or validity of the rule itself, it's that the rule is in place and a coach, now branded whiney, asked the ref if the rule was to be enforced.
The question is more around the coach's behavior.
BTW, that rule is a classic Bernie rule. This was one of his tournaments right? Ever heard him scream at one of his own injured Machine players? It's a site to behold. I believe the motivation behind Bernie's injury rule is to use the 'potential" of sitting on the bench as a motivator to be "tough" on the ice. Got hacked in the groin? Tough - Suck it up and get off the ice. Don't just lay there. Oh...you're gonna lay there? Well then you must be really hurt and if you're really hurt, then you should sit out.
This is the Bernie rule. He has had it in place for sometime and rules are rules, if you don't like it go play in a different tournament. I have seen kids drag themselves to the bench in order not to sit for ten minutes. There is a difference between "hurt" and "injured". If you are truly injured and you take a whistle you should sit out to recover and make sure you are ok, if you take a whistle because you are hurt you should abide by the rule and sit out. Be a good example for your kids and follow the rules and don't complain about them, you can't do anything to change it so accept it and play by the rules.
JSR wrote:This rule is in essence a penalty. It is a 10 minute major penalty to the player for being injured. What if the injury was the result of being slashed or tripped or chcecked form behind in which the ref didn't see the infraction. How can anyone believe that it is ok to assess a 10 minute major against a kid for being injured, because again that is exactly what this is. Again I get game flow and fake injuries, I hate that as well but the punishment does not fit the crime here regardless of whether it was in bold or not. There HAS to be a better way of either getting rid of the fake injuries OR building up to that penalty but to assess it right away the first time it happens, no way. Rules may be rules but only because they haven't been challenged in some instances. And don;t use the "maybe we should pick and choose what rules we follow and which ones we don't" stuff because there is NOTHING akin to this in any other sport or any hockey game I have ever been part of. You can slash a guy and try and injure another person and only are out for two minutes but you get injured and YOUR out for ten, yeah that makes sense.....
JSR
I didn't say I agreed with the rule, but rules are rules. So what if no other sport has a similar rule, that means it can't be enforced in hockey?? Rules are ment to be followed even if we don't like the rule!
JSR wrote:This rule is in essence a penalty. It is a 10 minute major penalty to the player for being injured. What if the injury was the result of being slashed or tripped or chcecked form behind in which the ref didn't see the infraction. How can anyone believe that it is ok to assess a 10 minute major against a kid for being injured, because again that is exactly what this is. Again I get game flow and fake injuries, I hate that as well but the punishment does not fit the crime here regardless of whether it was in bold or not. There HAS to be a better way of either getting rid of the fake injuries OR building up to that penalty but to assess it right away the first time it happens, no way. Rules may be rules but only because they haven't been challenged in some instances. And don;t use the "maybe we should pick and choose what rules we follow and which ones we don't" stuff because there is NOTHING akin to this in any other sport or any hockey game I have ever been part of. You can slash a guy and try and injure another person and only are out for two minutes but you get injured and YOUR out for ten, yeah that makes sense.....
JSR
I didn't say I agreed with the rule, but rules are rules. So what if no other sport has a similar rule, that means it can't be enforced in hockey?? Rules are ment to be followed even if we don't like the rule!
I guess I just have never been one to blindly follow rules just because they were in place before I got there.... I mean that is how Nazi Germany proliferated, right, people blindly following the "rules"..... that's just me though
JoltDelivered wrote:JSR...my take on it is the question is not about the usefulness or validity of the rule itself, it's that the rule is in place and a coach, now branded whiney, asked the ref if the rule was to be enforced.
The question is more around the coach's behavior.
BTW, that rule is a classic Bernie rule. This was one of his tournaments right? Ever heard him scream at one of his own injured Machine players? It's a site to behold. I believe the motivation behind Bernie's injury rule is to use the 'potential" of sitting on the bench as a motivator to be "tough" on the ice. Got hacked in the groin? Tough - Suck it up and get off the ice. Don't just lay there. Oh...you're gonna lay there? Well then you must be really hurt and if you're really hurt, then you should sit out.
Fair enough, I said I disagreed with the fact the coach continued to "pursue it" after the game was over. As for the other stuff, if that is how it's run then no thanks, that would nt be for me or my kids I guess.
I am tired of people complaning about rules, if you don't want to follow them take your your kid and go start your own tournament and you can make any rules you want to. There are plenty of other people willing to go to the tournament and follow the rules.
JoltDelivered wrote:JSR...my take on it is the question is not about the usefulness or validity of the rule itself, it's that the rule is in place and a coach, now branded whiney, asked the ref if the rule was to be enforced.
Sorry if I branded anyone. Not my intention. Just that I have seen 3 weekends of hockey now this spring where there has been a coach that has been after another coach, tourney director or other parents about a loss. Not a good thing for youth hockey.
JSR wrote:This rule is in essence a penalty. It is a 10 minute major penalty to the player for being injured. What if the injury was the result of being slashed or tripped or chcecked form behind in which the ref didn't see the infraction. How can anyone believe that it is ok to assess a 10 minute major against a kid for being injured, because again that is exactly what this is. Again I get game flow and fake injuries, I hate that as well but the punishment does not fit the crime here regardless of whether it was in bold or not. There HAS to be a better way of either getting rid of the fake injuries OR building up to that penalty but to assess it right away the first time it happens, no way. Rules may be rules but only because they haven't been challenged in some instances. And don;t use the "maybe we should pick and choose what rules we follow and which ones we don't" stuff because there is NOTHING akin to this in any other sport or any hockey game I have ever been part of. You can slash a guy and try and injure another person and only are out for two minutes but you get injured and YOUR out for ten, yeah that makes sense.....
JSR
I didn't say I agreed with the rule, but rules are rules. So what if no other sport has a similar rule, that means it can't be enforced in hockey?? Rules are ment to be followed even if we don't like the rule!
I guess I just have never been one to blindly follow rules just because they were in place before I got there.... I mean that is how Nazi Germany proliferated, right, people blindly following the "rules"..... that's just me though
I was wondering when the Nazi's would finally show up in a thread.
I have coached against some 2002 coaches that are apart of the Minnesota Made hockey program and I must say for the most part the coaches are class acts as are the parents. Recently we had two tight tournament ending games agains the Machine and all the parents were amazing towards myself and our teams parents! So often the negative gets spoke of, I just wanted to pass on that I think you guys have some of the greatest hockey parents and we will play you guys anytime!! Cheers!
Warriors wrote:I have coached against some 2002 coaches that are apart of the Minnesota Made hockey program and I must say for the most part the coaches are class acts as are the parents. Recently we had two tight tournament ending games agains the Machine and all the parents were amazing towards myself and our teams parents! So often the negative gets spoke of, I just wanted to pass on that I think you guys have some of the greatest hockey parents and we will play you guys anytime!! Cheers!
Warriors wrote:I have coached against some 2002 coaches that are apart of the Minnesota Made hockey program and I must say for the most part the coaches are class acts as are the parents. Recently we had two tight tournament ending games agains the Machine and all the parents were amazing towards myself and our teams parents! So often the negative gets spoke of, I just wanted to pass on that I think you guys have some of the greatest hockey parents and we will play you guys anytime!! Cheers!
I have to agree with you. Coaches that give their time to help players with the game are awesome. The parents and players should let the coaches know how much they enjoy them!
Oops, sorry. I guess I should have said Bush Lake Road behavior.
Still one of the silliest stories I've ever heard. Very poor judgement by the tourney organizers and, very dangerous. If the kid is nothing but a flopper let his own coach take care of that. But, in the case of a real injury it's nuts to make a kid race to get up and back to the bench. Frankly, I'm surprised an EMT hasn't called someone out on that. And, don't forget the purpose of the Preview Cup. It means nothing except to extend the season and for some deserving B level players to have fun. So now they get to sit because they took more than 10 seconds to get to their feet and to the bench. Unfortunately, this is where insanity and common sense don't meet.
I’ll add a story cuz it’s a good one. I’ve been a tournament director and the EMTs told me that no coaches were allowed on the ice to tend to an injured player until they are summoned by the EMT. I asked why, as I was a coach for several years and hadn’t heard that before. The EMT said, “because the same thing happens every time. The dad/coach comes out and stands over the kid and says, get up, you’re alright and I like to make a medical safety determination before someone starts barking, get up, you’re ok.”
I guess I just have never been one to blindly follow rules just because they were in place before I got there.... I mean that is how Nazi Germany proliferated, right, people blindly following the "rules"..... that's just me though [/quote]
Don't follow rules in Nazi Germany - you disappear!
Don't follow the rules at the rink - your an ass!
I guess I would rather be an ass at the rink - and I'm half way there!
I bet the coach has a kid on the team. I also bet that it is his oldest. These are MITES. This is a tourny for 2nd graders. Do want your 2nd grader to make the "choice" between hurt and injured??? This guy belongs down there w/Bernie.
old goalie85 wrote:I bet the coach has a kid on the team. I also bet that it is his oldest. These are MITES. This is a tourny for 2nd graders. Do want your 2nd grader to make the "choice" between hurt and injured??? This guy belongs down there w/Bernie.
You'd think so wouldn't you.
I have been at this tournament the last two years and I'll bet less than 25% of the players there are 2nd graders. You'd also think a tournament marketed for Mites wouldn't have so many squirt players in it. Mite age eligible in their last association year is probably a better description for the kids at this tournament. These are not first or second year kids who can't skate backwards.
Most have been knocked down before and know the difference between hurt and injured and most are not going to get up if they can't, no matter what. The teams that enter this tournament are competitive and want to win and that a coach took advantage of a well documented rule to gain a competitive advantage is neither shocking nor underhanded.
It's just another reason for the haters to badmouth Minnesota Made and Bernie McBain.
HD41-I see the word mite and I think of mites. Still not a big difference between 1st year squirts and mites pertaining to pain threashold in my mind. Maybe not underhanded or shocking , but kind of a PLEASE BAN ME move anyway. Let the kids play. They will grow up on you fast. I like competitive, just not messing w/little kids that want to play hockey. No offense, only a little hate.
Old goalie you have been around long enough to know that most tournments in the spring and summer have that rule,so do you bash the chitown shuffel,cougar classic,or the subway,Bernie runs it the same way as they run there tournments so why bash him?The only reason I can see you bashing Bernie is that one of your sons got cut from the Machine.
