Private schools should play AA and step it up!

dynamo · Post by **dynamo** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:45 pm

Benilde and Hill-Murray do it! The private schools recruit very heavily and there is no excuse for them to not compete at the highest level.

Homer · Post by **Homer** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:35 pm

What about the public schools that recruit? I can think of two, that play A and possibly recruit.

Cut Above · Post by **Cut Above** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:23 pm

Homer wrote:What about the public schools that recruit? I can think of two, that play A and possibly recruit.

I can think of 1 off hand that's AA that recruits with tremendous success.

MN_Bowhunter · Post by **MN_Bowhunter** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:26 pm

Until the league decides to do something about the recruiting we're all wasting our breath. I heard through the grapevine that 2 Edina girls were seen walking the halls of a certain class A powerhouse high school recently. I'm sure if they end up wearing Maroon this year it'll be because of the awesome education they couldn't get in Edina.

MNHockeyFan · Post by **MNHockeyFan** » Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:33 am

MN_Bowhunter wrote:I heard through the grapevine that 2 Edina girls were seen walking the halls of a certain class A powerhouse high school recently.

This in no way proves or even implies that the coach of said powerhouse was actively recruiting them! And it doesn't matter one bit where they're from. All kids - whether they come from Minneapolis, Wayzata or (gasp!) Edina - are eligible to attend a private school, assuming of course they have the academic credentials and their parents can swing it financially.

glovesareoff · Post by **glovesareoff** » Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:17 am

MN Hockey Fan

I don't think Bowhunter was referring to a private school, I believe he/she was referring to a public Classic Suburban team. Note the "maroon" comment he/she made. If true, one might question the transfer/enroll from public to public school given the two communties involved and the distance between them.

MNHockeyFan · Post by **MNHockeyFan** » Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:27 am

glovesareoff wrote:I don't think Bowhunter was referring to a private school, I believe he/she was referring to a public Classic Suburban team. Note the "maroon" comment he/she made. If true, one might question the transfer/enroll from public to public school given the two communties involved and the distance between them.

Gotcha, thanks for clarifying.

old goalie85 · Post by **old goalie85** » Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:01 am

Who would leave Edina to go to Cowtown ??

observer · Post by **observer** » Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:13 am

That was my question exactly. Either not top players or sick of the political grind that is Edina. I can think of a few better options closer to home. It's not a weekend tournament but 4 years of driving 30 minutes twice a day. I don't see that happening but thanks for keeping your nose to the ground bowhunter.

Homer · Post by **Homer** » Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:02 pm

old goalie85 wrote:Who would leave Edina to go to Cowtown ??

One guess would be the easy trip to state through section 4A. If I pcked up on the cowtown reference correctly.

AV dad · Post by **AV dad** » Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:58 pm

All right! I figured out this week's puzzler. I had to look up the conferences on Girl's Hockey Hub, but the rest was easy. Will the answer be given in the third half of the show?

Larry Blackstone · Post by **Larry Blackstone** » Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:32 pm

AV dad wrote:All right! I figured out this week's puzzler. I had to look up the conferences on Girl's Hockey Hub, but the rest was easy. Will the answer be given in the third half of the show?

dynamo · Post by **dynamo** » Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:32 pm

First of all, public school recruiting is obviously more of a challenge than private school recruiting because most of the time it will require a physical move by the family or backwards shenanigans. Therefore, most recruiting takes place with the private schools. What I wanted to bring out with this is why won't those schools step it up and play with the Big Girls!

Secondly, with respect to girls transferring out of Edina or any other strong program we all know that these girls would typically be lower end players and questioning whether or not they will be able to play. I can't speak for Edina, but from the success they have had over the last 4 years at the Varsity level and with up and coming strong youth players I can imagine there will some very good players that might not ever make the High School team.

kicksave33 · Post by **kicksave33** » Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:16 pm

South Saint Cowtown definitely must bring in some new recruits, as last year's top-scoring forward (an Inver Grove Heights kid) is graduating. Their new goalie from Albert Lea took them pretty far last season, though! She'll just need a few more outsiders from the West Metro to help get the job done...

MN_Bowhunter · Post by **MN_Bowhunter** » Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:17 pm

observer wrote: I don't see that happening but thanks for keeping your nose to the ground bowhunter.

I don't see it happening either, but the point isn't whether the recruiting is successful or not, just that it's happening. Same coach had 2 goalies transfer in from Woodbury and Albert Lea last year, just after his starter graduated. What a fortuitous stroke of good luck...

Like I said, the education must be incredible over there.

Dynamo, I agree to an extent, but I think putting all private schools in their own section, whichever class they're in, and letting them fight each other for one spot at state is a better solution. I'd love to see the open enrollment done away with as well for public schools. At least make these people uproot their families and move to the community where they want to play.

MNHockeyFan · Post by **MNHockeyFan** » Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:07 am

MN_Bowhunter wrote:I think putting all private schools in their own section, whichever class they're in, and letting them fight each other for one spot at state is a better solution. I'd love to see the open enrollment done away with as well for public schools. At least make these people uproot their families and move to the community where they want to play.

Be careful for what you wish for! Restricting individual freedom and choice will inevitably lead to mediocrity for both academics and athletics in the public schools. If you arbitrarily put too many restrictions and impose artificial limits on what students and athletes believe they are capable of achieving, they for sure will choose a different route that they believe will help them advance to the next level. In the process you will end up destroying the Minnesota high school model that has (so far) worked very well. Faced with too many restrictions, the top private schools that focus on achieving hockey excellence will likely opt out of the MSHSL and follow the SSM model, providing top-notch coaching, extensive ice time and playing a 60+ game schedule, not limited by MSHSL rules and their strict practice/playing seasons. In the process these schools would attract many of the best and most dedicated young hockey talent, who would see this as the best way to advance to D1 and then (hopefully) the national team level.

I just don't think we want to go there...don't fix it if it ain't broken!

glovesareoff · Post by **glovesareoff** » Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:35 am

Like I said, the education must be incredible over there.

Not really, Go compare the two schools on the Mn Dept of Ed website. Here is the link. http://education.state.mn.us/MDEAnalytics/Reports.jsp

Like I mentioned earlier, with this data, one might question the the transfer/enroll from public to public school given to two communities involved.

Who knows, maybe some parents have different priorites in life for their children???? Wouldn't be the first or last time, thats for sure!!!!

Cut Above · Post by **Cut Above** » Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:13 am

glovesareoff wrote:
Like I said, the education must be incredible over there.
Not really, Go compare the two schools on the Mn Dept of Ed website. Here is the link. http://education.state.mn.us/MDEAnalytics/Reports.jsp

Like I mentioned earlier, with this data, one might question the the transfer/enroll from public to public school given to two communities involved.

Who knows, maybe some parents have different priorites in life for their children???? Wouldn't be the first or last time, thats for sure!!!!

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:10 pm

Some schools have wonderful IB education programs and quite strong Girls' Hockey programs. They regularly have attracted student-athletes from many communities - near and far - back to the inception of the sport. I don't believe this is any secret.

If these are the two most important things (education & hockey), then maybe a move or open enrollment makes more sense than we think regardless of if the student-athletes in question are top players that would have played at their home HS or are looking at this for educational purposes alone.

There are so many factors that go into making this decision. Community politics, individual student-athlete dynamics within their community/school/circle of friends (or enemies)/team/etc.

This is not meant to take anything away from other schools, teams, coaches, communities, etc., etc.

Five years away from the sport has changed my view on these things a little bit. I also have a far different perspective as a former coach vs a current or former player, parent, etc.

Some of the best players I ever coached wondered if some of these powerhouse teams would be a better fit and I openly discussed the options with these families. I even placed calls to other schools on their behalf to inquire about getting the process started on transfers, moves to private schools, etc. Now, this didn't happen with every player that I coached that left via transfer - but, it did for some. Some did it on their own.

My hope for all student-athletes is that they get the best education and athletic experience possible in a supportive environment. If that means a transfer - so be it.

MN_Bowhunter · Post by **MN_Bowhunter** » Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:22 pm

ghshockeyfan wrote:Some schools have wonderful IB education programs and quite strong Girls' Hockey programs. They regularly have attracted student-athletes from many communities - near and far - back to the inception of the sport. I don't believe this is any secret.

There's a huge difference between students and parents determining which school offers the academics and athletics that fit their needs and high school coaches scouting U12 games, coaching U12 summer camps and actively calling parents of U12 players.

One is "attracting" the other is blatant recruiting.

I have no problem with families deciding on their own what they want to do. I have a huge problem with a league that restricts a kid from making that choice after they start their freshman year, while at the same time turning a blind eye to the coaches who promise the moon to 14 year old kids and their naive parents. By the time these families realize they've been duped, they are punished by the league if they try to change schools. Said coach is actually being rewarded by the league as the league helps that coach hold a kid hostage, a kid that might never have gone to that school if the coach hadn't been allowed to recruit in the first place.

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:03 pm

Interesting perspective. I see the point, I believe...

students and parents determining which school offers the academics and athletics that fit their needs

I have no problem with families deciding on their own what they want to do.

VS.

high school coaches scouting U12 games, coaching U12 summer camps and actively calling parents of U12 players

I have a huge problem with a league that restricts a kid from making that choice after they start their freshman year, while at the same time turning a blind eye to the coaches who promise the moon to 14 year old kids and their naive parents. By the time these families realize they've been duped, they are punished by the league if they try to change schools. Said coach is actually being rewarded by the league as the league helps that coach hold a kid hostage, a kid that might never have gone to that school if the coach hadn't been allowed to recruit in the first place.

I'm guessing very few coaches do the actual "illegal" recruiting by MSHSL standards. It's probably others in the community when this sort of thing actually does happen. Sometimes people point to assistant coaches, parents, boosters, etc., etc.

Part of the problem is that the league will likely never catch any coach for this sort of thing. There's little to no chance that a recruited player would turn-around and turn-in the coach (or other person) recruiting them. How else is anyone actually going to prove this (other than the recruited player turning-in the coach)? Plus, the player & their family are usually so happy to recieve the attention that they would never think of doing anything to stop this.

Note that I'm assuming the high school coach in this case is outside their natural attendance area if coaching at a public high school. Otherwise, I'm not certain that there is much wrong with a high school coach attending their home youth association U12 or other events. Heck, I'd encourage that! Far too often this isn't happening (high school coaches supporting their youth assn feeder programs). I'd say the same for the u12 camp - I'd encourage a HS coach to at least be involved in the process for this - but maybe not run the whole thing. And, lastly, I assume the HS coach is calling U12 parents to figure out what their intentions are for the coming season. Sometimes players are jumping straight from U12 as 7th graders to HS team as 8th graders. Not ideal, but in some areas there aren't many other viable options and sometimes these decisions will make or break HS team plans for JV teams, youth assn plans for U14, etc.

So is the issue that the public high school coach is involved/active with their home attendance area youth program?

MN_Bowhunter · Post by **MN_Bowhunter** » Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:54 pm

ghshockeyfan wrote: So is the issue that the public high school coach is involved/active with their home attendance area youth program?

No, that is commendable. The issue is the coach being involved/active (calling, scouting, attending games) with the surrounding communities that have their own associations and high school programs. The issue is the coach working at a summer camp up north and 2 kids (from a different community) who attended that summer camp subsequently touring his high school. Do you think he told those kids if they came to play for him they'd probably end up on the JV for a couple years?

I find it appalling that these kids don't get any protection from predatory recruiters until they're good enough to go to college. The NCAA has rules and enforces them, but high school coaches can do whatever they want. The high school league has rules regarding recruiting but only enforces one of them. The one that punishes the child by making them sit out a year if they decide to go to a different school.

This is from the MSHSL: Any verbal or written contact initiated by a representative of another
school resulting in the transfer of a student will be considered as
asserting undue influence, for which the school may be publicly
censured, removed from tournament competition, suspended from the
League, or fined

http://www.aaaa-sa.org/College%20PDF/NC ... ations.pdf

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:54 am

MN_Bowhunter wrote:The issue is the coach being involved/active (calling, scouting, attending games) with the surrounding communities that have their own associations and high school programs.

To be clear - the surrounding communities youth assns aren't co-oped with the HS coach's youth program? If not - then it's potentially an "undue influence"-like scenario as you described it and per MSHSL wording. Are we ceratin that this wasn't initiated by players/parents? That would be another consideration.

MN_Bowhunter wrote:The issue is the coach working at a summer camp up north and 2 kids (from a different community) who attended that summer camp subsequently touring his high school. Do you think he told those kids if they came to play for him they'd probably end up on the JV for a couple years?

This one is a little more difficult, but I see why you put it in the same "undue influence"-like classification based on the MSHSL language.

Last item applicable to both the examples above is the wording that states "...resulting in the transfer of a student..." If the transfer doesn't actually happen, then there is no punishment...

...And, this is why actual recruiting will be so hard to prove to MSHSL. No family/player that has actually completed a transfer would ever turn-in the coach (or anyone else for that matter) for a recruiting violation after it is already done.

hockeytribe · Post by **hockeytribe** » Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:20 am

Why does feel like a discussion about a commodity?

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:24 am

hockeytribe wrote:Why does feel like a discussion about a commodity?

Probably because we're discussing the wording of the rules and not the considerations of the individual students.