Section Realignment ?

[Racki2016]

Is this just a rumor?, or is the state high school league looking into changing it up for 2013 - 2014. Has anyone else heard this rumor?

[nine mile]

The sections are realigned every two years and the two years is up.Usually announced in early spring and there aren't that many changes.

[Bighead]

Yea I wouldn't make many changes either...then they can keep having the State Tournament Championship Game at the Section 6 final game at Parade!

[MN_Bowhunter]

Keep section 3A like it is, those 12 - 0 state tourney games are fun to watch...

[Nimrod]

I agree with Bighead. Said differently, this needs to be fixed. There will likely be 6 teams ranked in the top 15 in Section 6AA this year. Most of those 6 teams would have a legitimate shot at winning most of the other sections. Maybe they should just do away with the State Tournament and everyone can come watch the entire Section 6AA playoff.

[hockeywild7]

There has usually been one extremely strong section each year so I don't feel sorry for section 6AA. Section 4AA was loaded in the past. Roseville and Stillwater had top ranked teams with White Bear Lake and Hill-Murray also having strong teams. In the 5 years from 2007 to 20011 they won 3 state titles and one runner-up.

[36Guy]

There has usually been one extremely strong section each year so I don't feel sorry for section 6AA. Section 4AA was loaded in the past. Roseville and Stillwater had top ranked teams with White Bear Lake and Hill-Murray also having strong teams. In the 5 years from 2007 to 20011 they won 3 state titles and one runner-up.

Nobody is looking for you to feel sorry. If that was the case from 2007-2011 it should have been corrected back then too! Walking out of the tunnel at Excel is sacred in Minnesota and should done by the top eight teams. Re-elignment should be done yearly by qualified people and or when they get to the final 16 teams (section finals) the should re-seed and play 8 play in games.

[BWBOY]

Were all to feel sorry for BSM because they cant beat Tonka.... not me

[Nimrod]

I think the rest of the teams in Section 6AA believe, as they should, they can win Section 6AA as well. I would not be one bit surprised this year if the final is not a rematch of the last two years. Might not even include either team. I get that each year some sections are stronger than others and it takes some intelligence and effort to look to the next year to determine which teams are bringing back their goalie, top defensemen and forwards. I think the point is the system is broken whether its 6AA the last three years or some other section, including last year when HM didn't make it.

[MNHockeyFan]

Unless the MSHSL makes a lone exception for just girls hockey (just kidding) their realignment for the next two seasons will again be geographically based. Agree or not but their philosophy has always been to give schools from all over an opportunity to represent their part of the State. Doing it this way also minimizes the need to travel long distances, i.e. a Crookston doesn't have to play in Rochester or an Albert Lea in International Falls. To me this has always made a lot of sense and I'm in favor in keeping it that way when it comes to the outstate teams.

But I do wish the MSHSL would consider doing things a little differently in the Twin Cities, especially for Class AA. Rather than have the sections set in advance and based on which part of the Twin Cites the schools are located they could wait until the end of the regular season (or just before) and then form the sections with the goal of making them relatively even. This would eliminate having a disproportionate number of top ranked teams in any one section, like you have today in 6AA or like you had in 4AA a few years ago. The distance from say a Forest Lake to Shakopee, or an Andover to Hastings, would still be a lot less than you have with many outstate teams (like a Roseau to St. Cloud, or Cambridge to Duluth). So travel would not be a big consideration if you limited the change to just the Twin Cities. The sections would be much better balanced and you would almost surely end up with a better State Tournament than what you have now.

I doubt something like this will ever come to pass, as the MSHSL is pretty stuck in their ways. I believe in tradition too, but it's become very apparent (to me anyway) that the system is flawed and could easily be changed to make it better.

[hockeywild7]

The only way you will ever get the top 8 teams to state is if you drop the playoff system and rank the top 8 at the end of the season and just send them to the X and that's not gonna happen.

[nine mile]

MNHockeyFan is right.The MSHSL geographically realligns the sections via computer so every region of the state is represented in the state tournament.All sports are done the same.The only criteria used is geography.

[Hieronymus]

MNHockeyFan is right.The MSHSL geographically realligns the sections via computer so every region of the state is represented in the state tournament.All sports are done the same.The only criteria used is geography.

My thought has been to play down to the top two in each section and then rank the teams (1-16, 2-15, etc) and the winners of those 8 games make it to State. I know it won't happen and it may not result in the top 8 teams making it but at least more of the top teams would get it. It might result in a bit more travel but I guarantee every team would be willing to go wherever they would need to for a chance at State. All these teams travel far and wide during the season. One more trip wouldn't kill anyone.

[Nimrod]

I think Hieronymus is onto something. At least that approach would dramatically reduce the likelihood of having 2 or 3 of the top 5 teams staying home from state like I recall happening last year and in prior years. You could take it a step further and leave the out state teams out of this process and just apply it to the Metro teams if there are travel concerns. I can't recall the last time there were even 2 out state teams in the top 10 in AA so the odds of a top outstate team staying home because they lost to an equal or slightly higher/lower ranked team (i.e., another top 5 team in the state) in their section are pretty slim. This minimizes travel and helps ensure all parts of the state are represented. Of course those that have had an easy run to state each year won't like change.

[goaline]

Its geography and geography alone -- we already have a youth hockey system that favors metro at the expense outstate -- the mshsl champions their sports when they don't go BCS or PRO play-off systems on high school athletes

[Pens4]

Its geography and geography alone -- we already have a youth hockey system that favors metro at the expense outstate -- the mshsl champions their sports when they don't go BCS or PRO play-off systems on high school athletes

I think we already have a form of the BCS system in place with our sectional seedings. I have never attended a section seeding meeting but I've heard they can get pretty interesting. Could it be done for a larger sample size?

[D6 Girls Fan]

The most equitable system would be to grab one of the ratings systems that take strength of schedule into account and seed teams 1-64, then send people to 8 neutral sites (Round of 64 becomes 16 after first weekend). Then one more round of games at 8 neutral sites gets you your top 8.

OR...

Play down 8 regionals to top 2 teams. Then take lower seed inside that region and send them to another region's #1. If they can beat another region's #1, they should probably go to state.

But anyone who thinks the current system is preferable isn't interested in having a State Tourney with the top 8 teams.

[Tenoverpar]

why is it that the West/southwest metro believes they should be entitled and be the only teams that go to state in hockey and thus the system should be changed to dicrate that their "league" be given the best chance to have the most represenation?

The state tournament is not about you...it's not about your teams, it's about the whole state and bringing in teams from all over geographically is what makes it special, it's what makes it what it is.

Are those the best 8 teams in the state...nope. Are they a good representation of hockey...yup.

[luckyEPDad]

MNHockeyFan is right.The MSHSL geographically realligns the sections via computer so every region of the state is represented in the state tournament.All sports are done the same.The only criteria used is geography.

My thought has been to play down to the top two in each section and then rank the teams (1-16, 2-15, etc) and the winners of those 8 games make it to State. I know it won't happen and it may not result in the top 8 teams making it but at least more of the top teams would get it. It might result in a bit more travel but I guarantee every team would be willing to go wherever they would need to for a chance at State. All these teams travel far and wide during the season. One more trip wouldn't kill anyone.

Reduce the number of sections from 8 to 4 and advance 2 teams from each section. Sections would still be based somewhat on geography to retain local interest and minimize travel. There would still be no guarantee tha the 8 best teams would advance to the state tournament, but it should be more representative of the overall state talent level. The new section 26 (2 and 6) could have some epic battles between Benilde, Minnetonka, Edina and Eden Prairie.

Another possibility, the current 8 sections are each represented by two teams and the tournament does away with the third place and consolation games. The number of games goes up from 22 to 30, but the lightly attended Wed night games could be played on multiple rinks around the metro.

A problem with both of these solutions is that they break with tradition, and the tradition of the tournament is far more important than crowning the best team in the state. Mess too much with the Minnesota State Hockey Tournament and it loses its identity, and that would be tragic.

[allhoc11]

why is it that the West/southwest metro believes they should be entitled and be the only teams that go to state in hockey and thus the system should be changed to dicrate that their "league" be given the best chance to have the most represenation?

The state tournament is not about you...it's not about your teams, it's about the whole state and bringing in teams from all over geographically is what makes it special, it's what makes it what it is.

Are those the best 8 teams in the state...nope. Are they a good representation of hockey...yup.

I don't feel that what I"m hearing is entitlement, rather just teams/players/parents who would like a fair/equal shot of getting there. It's not just the the West Metro, if you look back a couple years it was the East metro then, as they had more than their fair share of top teams in one section. I guarantee that if there was ever more then 3 top end teams in an outstate section we would hear frustration from their fans as well.

If you peek at the Hockey Day thread it's apparent that the State Tournament is the grand jewel of our sport. Meaning it's the place where the casual fan who might not otherwise see a girls HS game, might catch it on tv or better yet sneak down to the X to watch a game. It's a shame that if someone only see's one game, or brings their daughter to come see a game that they see a 15-0 blowout, and think that is what our sport is about. If we want to grow the game it only seems right that we make an effort so all teams have a somewhat fair and equal path to get there. The problem as EPdad so eloquently says is that would mean a break from tradition, and I agree I don't see that happening.

[luckyEPDad]

It's a shame that if someone only see's one game, or brings their daughter to come see a game that they see a 15-0 blowout, and think that is what our sport is about.

Or a 10-1 semi for that matter.

[D6 Girls Fan]

The state tournament is not about you...it's not about your teams, it's about the whole state and bringing in teams from all over geographically is what makes it special, it's what makes it what it is.

Are those the best 8 teams in the state...nope. Are they a good representation of hockey...yup.

Yes, there ARE lopsided games being played every week. But I don't think they should be in the State Tournament just because they're "representative." The tournament SHOULD be about the best teams in the state. Football has divided itself up into many classes, and nobody is clamoring for representation from all over the state in those classes. It works itself out, as does basketball. Lots of champions from all over the state.

Hockey has changed. There aren't as many good AA schools in the outstate anymore. It's not 1960, or even 1980. As i check, I see exactly two AA teams with a better than .500 record in Section 7. There isn't a team in Section 3 ranked higher than 20. (And last time I checked, that was a mostly metro section.) In the old days there was a backdoor in on the boys side for northern teams so they could ensure that some of the better teams didn't get locked out. How about a backdoor for the losers in Section 6, Section 2, Section 4 & Section 5, and combine Sections 7 & 8?

It's why seeding all the teams makes the most sense. If the top 8 teams all came from the north, they should all get into the tournament. How anyone can argue that having the best 8 teams in St. Paul is a bad thing?

[luckyEPDad]

It's why seeding all the teams makes the most sense. If the top 8 teams all came from the north, they should all get into the tournament. How anyone can argue that having the best 8 teams in St. Paul is a bad thing?

I'd think that most people would argue that having the best 8 teams in St. Paul is a bad thing. I think quite a few people care very little if the best 8 teams are playing in the state tournament. They are much more interested in rooting for the locals to take it all. Most hockey fans in Minnesota like those section tournament banners hanging in the local rink. Banners that would no longer exist if the participation was based on rankings.

If you buy into the belief that the best team can be determined by playing a single elimination tournament, what difference does it make where those teams play? Minnetonka beats Benilde in sections, so obviously Benilde cannot be the best team in state. There is no reason why that game has to be played in St. Paul. If you believe these are the two best teams in the state you are free to buy a ticket and watch them battle it out in the section tournament.

If you don't buy into that belief the state tournament is really an annual hockey showcase and celebration. If that's the case it would be a horrible disservice if all parts of the state were not represented.

[sinbin]

This is a difficult subject with some very good thoughts and comments. I would think that Minnesota already broke tradition 20 years ago when the boys moved to the two-class system. So, what to do? Is it fair that BSM lost to Tonka each of the last two years in Sections? Is it fair that Section 6AA has 6 of its 8 teams ranked in the top 16 in State? Is it fair that Section 3AA, 7AA and 8AA each have one team ranked in the top 20 (and if any of those teams was in Section 6AA, they would likely have just 1 playoff game, but by virtue of their geography, they'll likely play 5-6 playoff games)? Is it fair that several Northern teams get relatively free passes to State each year, while many Metro teams must survive a gauntlet year after year?

Now, I would agree that if there were no Northern teams in the State Tournament, it would lose some of its luster and it just wouldn't feel right. But is it any less of a thrill for a Metro team player to make it to State than for a Northern player? I would argue that the thrills and lifelong memories are similar (OK, maybe it's a little more fun for the Northern teams to travel and stay in a hotel).

So what most HS, College, and Pro programs have done in the past to make things more "fair" is to expand the number of teams in the playoffs (college and pro is about $, of course) rather than rearrange the current same number of teams in a more equitable manner. There is some cyclicality to the section strength, but there are also some long-term trends that likely won't ever be reversed. Could/should MN HS expand the number of teams in the State tournament? I'm loath to set up a system where everybody gets a ribbon, but the current system is clearly incredibly inequitable and won't ever become equitable unless changes are made. 3 classes of 8 teams may be too many and 16 teams in each of the current two classes feels like way too many (and would depend on the boys making similar changes). I think there's some kind of sweet spot that would give, say, the top-ranked sectional finals losers another opportunity to play in to the state tournament (somewhat akin to the NCAA Final Four with more and more play-in games to get to the Final 64). Yes, the logistics would be complex and the current inertia and linear thinking will assure that nothing like this ever happens, but I'm certain that the best hockey minds in Minnesota could develop such a system. I think that some of the suggestions here are close to the mark where we can create just the right mix of tradition, equity, and excitement.

[Pens4]

Well stated Sinbin !!